00:00:00 --- log: started osdev/02.01.18 00:16:47 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:13:55 --- nick: freston -> fressleep 01:41:01 --- quit: nbsp ("sleep") 01:43:22 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 02:10:47 --- join: Deusy (~goodwinch@195.173.68.201) joined #osdev 02:10:58 any1 here? 02:11:04 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #osdev 02:11:10 lo 02:11:22 werd 02:11:35 hmm... who wants to talk about os ideas? 02:11:35 Hey :-) 02:13:16 Like...writing an OS in only BASIC? :-) 02:13:19 kind of busy with a net stack, what's you want to talk about? 02:13:20 :D 02:13:34 um... 02:13:36 :) 02:13:37 geist: Networking for NewOS, huh? 02:13:50 yeah, I finally broke down and am doing it 02:13:56 :) 02:13:56 :D 02:13:57 writing the interface management code now 02:14:03 Any nics supported yet? 02:14:09 realtek 8139 02:14:24 hm, is it ne2000 compatible== 02:14:25 ? 02:14:26 pretty crappy 10/1000 02:14:30 no, that's the 8029 02:14:38 ok :( 02:14:53 * rob_ert wants 3c900 and 3c509 drivers :D 02:14:59 ne2k pci is supposedly in the works by some people 02:15:05 And...realtek 8029 wouldn't be so bad either. 02:15:10 cool 02:15:16 realtek 8029 == ne2k pci 02:15:22 yes 02:15:32 and someone is doing tulip 02:15:56 Hm, do you have any file system yet? 02:16:06 besides the memory based ones, no 02:16:12 that's why I'm doing the net stack 02:16:33 tired of waiting for the ide driver, I'll just throw together a net stack and do a remote block device 02:16:35 Huh? So you can do networked file systems? 02:16:42 that'd be easier for initial development anyway 02:17:11 OK... what system should be used as file system server then? 02:17:28 anything that has a tcp/ip stack 02:17:40 * rob_ert thinks of a hacked FreeDOS. 02:18:05 I won't distract you anymore, go on write your network stack :-) 02:18:16 :) 02:18:23 heh 02:18:30 so rob, what different things would you like to see in an os? 02:19:15 Deusy: Easy to code for. 02:19:17 :) 02:19:23 :) 02:19:45 Oh, and yet more important: Easy to code. 02:19:50 (the OS itself, that is) 02:20:05 hmm... i wrote a few ideas here: http://www.osnews.com/phorum/read.php?f=2&i=242&t=242 02:20:08 do they have any merit? 02:20:18 Deusy: You're writing/planning an OS? 02:22:02 I was thinking of a pretty cool thing... writing an OS in 100% BASIC. Just for fun, first a small BASIC intepreter (written in assembler, of course) is loaded, and then it runs BASIC code. Useless, but it would be the coolest OS ever ;-) 02:28:15 yeah, i was thinking of planning an os. 02:29:12 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:31:01 cool 02:31:25 hopefully. :) 02:31:26 geist: ? 02:31:31 ah 02:31:37 that he's planning an OS? 02:31:40 yeah 02:31:44 or..thinking of planning one :) 02:31:47 :D 02:32:34 well, i suffer from a lack of sufficient knowledge/experience... it's something i need to develope ideas for, make them into something that's workable, before i get into the planning stage. 02:32:35 :) 02:34:33 Hm... I bought the Minix book, gives you some ideas. 02:34:51 i was thinking more to develope new ideas in general though, rather than look back and see how other people have done it. 02:35:52 tho how mcu did the minix book cost? ;) 02:36:04 --- join: nilsw (00000@ncdial1-195-1-nc.nordcom.net) joined #osdev 02:36:35 mcu = much 02:39:29 --- quit: ink (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:39:55 hm 02:40:02 ~$80 02:40:10 is there any merit to believing that directory structures should only be views and not file locations? 02:40:33 ? 02:40:47 ie files should be maintained by some kinda db and you'd use the desktop/folder analogy to present them to the user? 02:42:22 that way if a file is renamed, it shouldn't affect anything. 02:42:27 if a file moves directories, it shouldn't affect anything. 02:44:15 sounds like inodes 02:45:02 know anywhere i can read up on inodes? 02:45:03 :) 02:45:19 any unix os book will talk about it 02:45:37 also, lots of modern oses have a concept similar to what you have 02:45:42 mac os always did that 02:45:54 winxp has a way to track files not by name 02:46:00 beos had queries to track stuff 02:46:19 yeah, but i'm looking at it the other way around. 02:46:24 lots of people will fight you to the death about tracking by unique id 02:46:30 you shouldn't have to track files. 02:47:06 is the mac os feature you talk about is that files are referred to by a numeric id? 02:47:12 probably 02:47:16 so renaming the file has no effect. 02:47:22 on what? 02:47:28 on programs using that file. 02:47:30 no effect as in it doesn't matter? 02:47:34 yeah... 02:47:35 :) 02:47:35 or that links still work 02:47:43 then why put a name there to start with? 02:47:56 if renaming it has no effect on anything 02:48:11 what if you want to put something else in it's place 02:48:18 a name is a better way for the user to identify it. 02:48:36 okay, I'm not sure what you're talking about here 02:48:41 having a number id offers the os/apps an independent way of identifying it from the user. 02:48:48 okay, that's inodes 02:48:51 --- join: ink (~ink@user-vcauu89.dsl.mindspring.com) joined #osdev 02:48:54 link by unique id 02:49:01 yeah. 02:49:03 mac did that 02:49:17 so if u move a file from dir to dir, does that matter in mac os? 02:49:17 and winxp does that now 02:49:24 it tracks where it went 02:49:36 matter to what? you're not clear 02:49:49 as in if there's a link to it, or if it's an app does it still start, or what? 02:50:02 both. 02:50:18 but for regular stuff you still want the file to move 02:50:41 like if it was there before it's not there now and so you have to find it if you want to open it 02:50:49 you want a way for links to follow the file 02:51:13 i want to view the file in 2 ways, 1 for the system, 1 for the user. 02:51:15 and also have the system be able to track it down 02:51:28 okay, that's been done 02:51:30 the user has something akin to the desktop where he can move files around and do whatever. 02:51:48 it's nothing big, you just allow opening of the file by inode 02:51:51 the system has a db of files, so when users move them they aren't actually moved, just in the users eyes. 02:51:59 lots of oses do that, it plays hell with security 02:52:07 right, that's what a filesystem is 02:52:26 a filesystem is a db of data streams on a backing store 02:52:29 yeah, but most systems are dependent on directory structures. 02:52:33 not really 02:52:46 the filesystem just presents that 02:53:09 ok, so if i move an application file in linux from it's home dir to a spurious dir, then it will still work? 02:53:10 lots of fses are interally numerically based, with unique ids to find the inodes 02:53:30 not on linux, it's not built that way 02:53:50 so, at least, what i'm talking about is viable. :) 02:53:50 unixes will never provide that feature 02:53:54 it kills security 02:54:08 i'm sure there are ways of preserving security. 02:54:15 since unix and traditional security is directory based 02:54:42 I can tell you from experience there is no good way to do it and preserve directory based security 02:55:08 beos had that problem with queries, which would do pretty much what you are asking 02:55:09 ok. 02:55:09 :) 02:55:20 allow you to look up a file on any number of attributes 02:55:36 and it basically gave you the inode number, and you could open it directly 02:55:37 so... filesystem <> file db <> user view <> user is possible? 02:56:07 and someone could store the inode number (exactly what you ask) and open that one directly. it was called a node_ref in beos 02:56:24 that came from the people at beos that came from the mac universe 02:56:31 which had been doing that for years 02:58:13 so, are there any file systems that work with a database like structure? a file would be long to a package, and a package would have a list of dependencies and things dependent upon it, or something like that. 02:59:23 well, depends on how you define 'package' and 'dependencies' 03:00:27 well, a package could be a user or an application. dependencies would be other applications that the application in question is dependent upon. 03:01:06 what about common dependancies? 03:01:27 otherwise it sounds like directories 03:01:36 put whatever you depend on in your dir tree 03:01:58 though dirs dont by default do this for you, you can treat it like a db in this instance 03:02:03 but other than that, no 03:05:00 the idea is, you have your DB (/ in the dir analogy), and you have Users and Applications under there, then Applications have Files and Dependences, and Users has Files and Views (what applications/other user files the user can see). 03:06:26 okay, sounds interesting 03:06:31 obviously, i'm not sure what i'm talking about :) but i'm just thinking of a different way to look at stuff than the dir analogy which is just messy. 03:08:11 true, that's good 03:08:19 it's good to think outside of the box 03:08:24 :) 03:11:52 --- join: ree (user@cx1213936-c.phnx1.az.home.com) joined #osdev 03:24:02 --- nick: geist -> geist-sleep 03:24:22 night geist-sleep 03:24:32 sweet dreams about tcp/ip :) 03:24:50 :D 03:40:44 * rob_ert is away: Eating... 03:42:40 woot 03:43:56 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 03:45:03 --- join: Darkvise (~Darkvise@sdn-ar-003watacoP051.dialsprint.net) joined #osdev 03:46:41 anyone here know stuff about telnet? 03:47:27 what about it 03:48:11 my questions MUD clients are basically telnet clients that just make the text look fancy right? 03:48:32 ya 03:49:42 hmm i thought so, whats the limitation of telnet anyways? 03:50:29 limitation? 03:52:24 I dont exactly know how to put it in technically correct terms since I'm not familiar with the exact details of telnet, but I'm interested in building a MUD server and I want to know what features are possible to add. 03:53:55 --- quit: `Spike (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:54:09 --- join: Guest30571 (some1a@obj1456.brmngh01.mi.comcast.net) joined #osdev 03:54:38 Guess this isnt a really appropriate question in this room. 03:56:06 what languages do you know 03:56:12 #ai is more appropriate 03:56:19 few mudists in there =) 03:56:29 hmm i'll check it out 03:56:43 So you guys develop OS's? 03:56:52 yeah, basically 03:57:20 isnt that difficult task? 03:57:28 very 03:58:19 is it more difficult depending on what type of system youre developing for? like a PDA versus a desktop PC? 03:58:45 yes, depends on the architecture/cpu 04:05:14 you guys made any OS's for super computers? 04:07:39 heh, no 04:09:11 hmm any of you guys participarted in developing Plan OS 9? 04:09:19 nope 04:09:57 some of us haven't even participated in developing an OS at all. 04:09:59 :) 04:10:14 well, at least, i haven't! 04:10:25 though i will, one day... 04:16:13 well, it doesn't take much but common sense and a lot of time to study how oses work 04:16:34 but it is real work coming up with new concepts and putting them together 04:17:39 Deusy: if os development is your goal than good luck 04:30:34 --- quit: Guest30571 (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 04:35:23 --- join: `Spike (some1a@obj1456.brmngh01.mi.comcast.net) joined #osdev 04:36:42 hey spike 04:40:59 --- quit: `Spike (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 04:41:14 --- join: Guest30571 (some1a@obj1456.brmngh01.mi.comcast.net) joined #osdev 04:49:49 ree, are you involved in the development of any oses? 04:50:54 will be 04:51:04 spent the past few years researching and developing new ideas 04:51:05 what is the C function to get time in something less than seconds? 04:51:27 u* 04:51:37 utime 04:51:44 yeah? are you developing ideas for a particular project or are you going to start your own? 04:52:06 i already checked utime 04:52:17 utime wants a filename 04:52:23 utime, utimes - change access and/or modification times of 04:53:11 my own deusy 04:53:32 have you looked up on select 04:53:38 you can use it as a high precision timer 04:53:55 uhh 04:54:00 other than that I do not know 04:54:06 i just need ms 04:55:05 google 04:55:42 that's cool ree. 04:56:03 gettimeofday 04:56:46 you documented any of your concepts yet? 04:56:53 nope deusy, sorry 04:57:04 don't be sorry. :) 04:57:08 I am going to start to 04:57:14 well, I should have a lot documented 04:57:16 i'm just eager to learn, tis all. 04:57:23 by now 04:57:28 but my mind is a fucked up place =) 04:57:33 :D 04:57:34 I'd rather think than do 04:57:53 yeah, gettimeofda 04:57:54 day 04:58:23 i've been reading up a fair bit on the net on oses, but most of the current projects are either eccentric (uuu), unrealistic (tunes.org), or just rehashes of stuff that's already been done. 04:58:50 yeah 04:59:09 I don't think tunes is unrealistic, just a poorly led project team 04:59:25 Deusy: brix-os.sf.net 04:59:30 heh 04:59:33 :) 04:59:34 what happened to brix-os.net 04:59:56 im getting rid of them 05:00:07 qzx too? 05:00:13 hell no 05:00:15 heh 05:00:17 yeah 05:00:19 I was about to say 05:00:31 but I guess you've made brix-os a less priority now 05:00:45 deusy, the site will be www.dnos.net for the os 05:00:58 dnos dont work 05:01:02 I know 05:01:09 yer iis server is broken 05:01:15 the site resolves and brings up no page 05:01:18 because I have no page up 05:01:22 yeah, I run iis 05:01:29 :) 05:01:33 that is a p90 fbsd machine with mathopd =) 05:01:45 I couldn't figure out IIS let alone use it 05:01:51 i remember looking @ brix before but for some reason i didn't read much... sounds interesting tho. 05:01:55 little funky colored buttons 05:02:06 then tree panes 05:02:51 I plan to make a rather crude implementation of an 'ai' os 05:03:02 using concepts from different programming languages 05:03:10 only I take the semantics and program them into the working code 05:03:35 and I focus on low level ai concepts like self modification, data mining, self assembly/organization 05:03:59 meant to be the foundation for a developer network I'd like to start in the future 05:04:11 sounds cool. :) 05:04:44 i like the sounds of the UI for brix. 05:05:16 heh, my ui will be network based 05:05:20 :) 05:05:22 that is the area of research I haven't completed 05:05:31 I plan to have no drivers other than network stack for the system 05:05:45 but what about making use of local hardware? 05:06:16 that will only start to happen once it is intelligent enough to control the hardware on its own 05:07:13 some of the concepts I use are not new, rather they are crude and very simple concepts of other languages/oses 05:07:28 but they way I plan to put them together into a unified approach is 05:07:36 I think that is what will make the difference 05:08:29 --- quit: Deusy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:08:45 --- join: Charlie (~goodwinch@195.173.68.201) joined #osdev 05:09:02 --- nick: Charlie -> D_lunch 05:10:44 wb =) 05:12:24 --- quit: Guest30571 (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:12:39 --- join: `Spike (some1a@obj1456.brmngh01.mi.comcast.net) joined #osdev 05:22:37 ugh 05:22:49 --- quit: `Spike (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:23:03 --- join: Guest30571 (some1a@obj1456.brmngh01.mi.comcast.net) joined #osdev 05:24:55 --- part: Darkvise left #osdev 05:24:59 --- nick: D_lunch -> Deusy 05:25:01 :) 05:25:23 gettimeofday(&tv, NULL); 05:25:23 d1 = skipword(message); 05:25:23 x = (float)tv.tv_sec + (float)tv.tv_usec/1000000; 05:25:23 y = (float)(atoi(message)) + (float)atoi(d1)/1000000; 05:25:23 sprintf(m_buffer, "%.3f", x - y); 05:25:28 whats wrong with that code 05:25:45 message and d1 are seconds and usecs 05:26:49 its outputting times ranging from -28 to 28 05:27:31 and there is always a ~1 second difference 05:33:33 what's output supposed to be? 05:33:43 ~1.0 05:33:57 which of your values is changing? 05:34:00 x or y? 05:34:04 both 05:34:24 when i ping the client i grab y and send it 05:34:37 the client returns y to me and i grab x the new time 05:34:48 then i subtract them to find the pingtime 05:35:32 so y should always be less than x, obviously... 05:35:38 yes 05:37:03 06:31 PING reply from air 1011360704.000 - 1011360686.104 = 17.896 seconds 05:37:04 06:35 PING reply from air 1011360960.000 - 1011360934.872 = 25.128 seconds 05:37:04 06:36 PING reply from air 1011360960.000 - 1011360985.719 = -25.719 seconds 05:37:47 funny how those last two didnt update x 05:37:57 yeah, was bout to say that. 05:38:01 yum 05:38:57 hmm 05:39:24 x takes many seconds before it updates 05:39:31 and its always ?.000 05:39:44 s/?/*/ 05:42:29 must be something to do with your use of gettimeofday and tv then. 05:42:45 they are both the same 05:42:53 two different threads 05:53:40 they both always return successful 05:54:13 * rob_ert is back (gone 02:13:29) 05:58:14 woah 05:58:27 --- join: cookin (~jrydberg@d212-151-42-189.swipnet.se) joined #osdev 05:58:37 hp and ibm are gonna stop making PCs 05:59:03 hi air 05:59:08 hey 05:59:12 already up ? 05:59:17 no 05:59:22 havent gone to bed yet 05:59:26 hp is getting bought by compaq no? 05:59:37 so compaq makes pcs heh 05:59:41 "Interex (the global HP user's group) is reporting that HP CEO Carly Fiorina told USA Today that 05:59:42 HP may get out of the PC business altogether if the merger with Compaq fails. 05:59:49 ahh, if the merger fails 06:00:02 well, I think HP should get out of the PC biz 06:00:12 PCs suck 06:00:31 but i also saw something about ibm not making PCs 06:00:32 and I do not like compaq 06:00:45 yeah, I think IBM is stopping their one line 06:01:19 arent thinkpads one of the top laptops? 06:01:40 were I think 06:01:57 i wonder if PC == thinkpad too 06:02:12 hehe 06:02:31 well, I think ibm is spread too thin to handle the current market right now 06:02:32 i can understand dropping the ugly ibm PCs 06:02:47 I don't really think IBM PCs are ugly 06:02:56 they just don't offer any redeeming qualities 06:03:11 I think if IBM tried to target consumers with a more powerful system it would be awesome 06:03:16 like powerpc desktops 06:03:25 four or five processors 06:03:52 uhh 06:04:10 they do sell those 06:04:24 they just don't market them. ;) 06:04:30 yes 06:04:32 kinda hard to convince the average windows luser to spend $10,000 for a computer 06:04:41 ibm has the worst consumer marketing 06:04:50 it wouldn't be 10k obviously 06:04:54 that was the entire point 06:04:59 ibm has itself to blame for not being as dominant as microsft. 06:05:10 if IBM could try to bring better technology into the consumer market 06:05:18 they are more dominant than ms 06:05:24 they are several magnitudes larger 06:05:32 ibm stands for international business machines 06:05:36 not consumer machines 06:05:37 heh 06:05:39 or consumer software 06:05:55 :) 06:06:27 they have no idea how to handle consumer relations 06:06:38 if it doesn't require processing fifty forms they are lost 06:06:51 well, they lost out. wasn't ms spawned from ibm? oracle too. 06:07:10 omg 06:07:18 no 06:07:20 heh 06:07:34 you are talking about ms's prior dealings with ibm and os/2 06:07:36 they have a love psychic on the radio and some homo called up 06:07:43 nah, before that, dos day. 06:07:45 days. 06:07:59 yes, well, bill gates got in because of his mother 06:08:01 it was bad enuf when the previous male caller cried over his gf leaving him 06:08:13 and was already a rich guy 06:09:09 hahah 06:09:11 is it olisen, the owner of oracle? 06:09:12 generation G 06:09:40 heh 06:09:46 unbreakable software :) 06:10:10 its ellisen 06:10:14 er ellison 06:10:16 son 06:10:27 daughter 06:10:32 that's it. :) 06:10:52 sourcerer linux looks nice 06:11:06 it was almost unbreakable. 06:11:12 air: what's the link? 06:11:19 http://sorcerer.wox.org/ 06:11:28 --- quit: cookin ("Client Exiting") 06:11:44 it compiles all software 06:12:02 and has some kinda auto-update system 06:12:24 and a web page that doesn't load. :| 06:12:32 it will 06:12:38 /. effect right now 06:12:59 ah... man /. can be bitches. they should start asking permission before linking pages. :) 06:15:59 hmm it might be an idea for osdev to break up the message board into distinct groups: kernel/network/concepts/etc 06:16:24 what message board? 06:16:34 osdev.org 06:16:41 oh 06:17:05 if i ever get around to releasing phpzap it will be 06:17:16 :) 06:17:48 phpzap in crush on brix on x86 06:18:10 phpzap is written in php 06:18:39 heh, I was joking 06:19:19 dunno why i didnt finish it before 06:19:41 you were too busy focusing on brix^H^H^H^Hairc 06:19:44 i only had 1 or 2 things to do and it coulda been on osdev.org months ago 06:19:52 :) 06:20:18 ah yes 06:20:44 i started airc while writing zap 06:34:35 --- join: jukka (jukka@MMCCLXXVII.hdyn.saunalahti.fi) joined #osdev 06:35:22 hahah 06:35:51 some kid called the cops cuz he was missing $4000 worth of pot from his dorm room 06:35:54 ha! 06:36:00 cops came and searched the room and found it 06:36:02 i just ha! for you hahahd' 06:42:26 heyhey 06:43:04 has any1 read anything by ted nelson? 06:43:07 --- quit: trans (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06:43:34 mmmmmmm.. 06:43:38 ted nelson 06:43:49 no i hope so 06:44:10 http://www.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~ted/zigzag/xybrap.html 06:45:31 --- join: corsairk8 (~CorsairK8@pc-62-30-122-106-cr.blueyonder.co.uk) joined #osdev 06:45:56 humm.. 06:45:59 what shoudli do with thatlinke? 06:46:57 it's about something he's designed, zigzag? 06:47:15 he comes across as being a bit potty to be honest... trying to hard to see things differently. 06:50:47 --- quit: ree (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:52:09 project xanadu, founded in 1960, still going nowhere... 06:52:29 http://www.xanadu.com/ 06:57:31 --- join: ree (user@cx1213936-c.phnx1.az.home.com) joined #osdev 06:57:40 xanadu? 06:57:44 wht ais it about? 06:57:59 hey hey ck =) 06:58:43 soz jukka, i shouldn't have posted the link... i thought it was interesting. then i read on. 07:06:56 hey hey 07:06:59 ah zig zag 07:07:04 ive seen this befor 07:07:05 e 07:07:10 ive studied a little graph theory 07:07:20 and multidimensioanl spac etheory 07:07:46 zip zag looks interesting but far too complex to actually do something useful :) 07:12:18 it looks to do too much imo 07:12:59 not that its doing alot 07:13:49 :) 07:13:58 exactly. 07:13:59 infact, i find the project quite a joke 07:14:15 people just want their documents indexable and easy to read. nothing more really. 07:14:25 yeh 07:15:43 --- quit: jukka ("moi") 07:32:51 heh, I am with zigzag, I am researching those kinds of things 07:35:05 no offense meant :) 07:35:28 how old is zigzag? 07:35:48 r u with xanadu then? 07:35:51 zigzag.sf.net 07:36:00 hmm, not found, I forget where it is 07:36:58 lol ree 07:37:05 your researching that too? 07:37:11 I already told you that 07:37:19 don't remember? 07:37:19 i was researching a bit about cardinality 07:37:22 and i run into that 07:37:26 I told you about it in #dist heh 07:37:27 http://xanadu.com/zigzag/ 07:37:31 heh, yah, my memory is quite short 07:37:39 I thought zigzag was on sf 07:37:44 its pretty cool but not my sorta thing 07:37:53 its a little too limited 07:38:04 adu is gonna work on a better system which can have more edges than 3 07:38:54 I haven't really looked into it, but I am into topological systems 07:39:04 I am reseraching a interface for the os I plan to do 07:39:09 researching 07:39:09 ah 07:39:15 or several different ones 07:39:21 i thought zigzag was for data storage :) 07:39:25 something easy until I get advanced enough for 3d 07:39:28 those little cell things 07:39:37 maybe we are talking about two different projects heh 07:39:42 indexing isn't it? (zigzag) 07:39:44 heh, nah, i remember zigzag 07:39:52 i recognise the site and logo and url 07:39:57 i definately studied it 07:39:58 I think I am mistaken 07:40:06 it represents data in multidimensional space 07:40:09 using cells 07:40:16 yeah, that sounds like it 07:40:21 you can have different types of data in each axis 07:40:24 I could of sworn there was a sf page 07:40:25 or what cha call it... 07:40:31 ah, i forgot the terms they use 07:40:34 maybe it was a opensource zigzag implementation 07:40:38 hmm, not afaik 07:40:42 yah 07:40:43 that was on sf 07:40:44 openzigzag 07:40:45 :) 07:40:46 there is an open source zz im 07:40:47 p 07:40:48 l 07:40:49 yep, deusy got it 07:40:53 open zigzag 07:40:56 ah 07:41:05 it's not it is it? that was a joke. 07:41:09 lol 07:41:14 hehe 07:41:16 i didnt know there was openzz either 07:41:19 fuck you bastard :) 07:41:26 :D 07:41:27 there is 07:41:39 I just have to find it again when I have spare time, someone told me about it in #3dwm I believe 07:41:43 or #ai 07:41:47 I forget that too :) 07:42:11 gzigzag 07:42:28 ah, ive heard about 3dwm 07:42:33 its aparently not very good 07:42:38 i didnt know it was related to zigzag 07:42:46 http://www.gzigzag.org 07:42:58 or http://sourceforge.net/projects/gzigzag/ 07:42:59 :) 07:44:32 it isn't 07:44:34 yep deusy 07:44:37 thanks guys 07:44:39 gzigzag 07:44:41 that sounds right 07:44:52 gzigzag.sf.net 07:45:00 I never use the full sourceforge name heh 07:45:20 yah 07:45:37 i think the name sourceforge makes my project sound to open source and cheap 07:45:38 yeah, zigzag is a little bit like I want to do 07:45:49 but I am going to combine concepts 07:45:50 zigzag is nothing how i want :) 07:46:04 just the linking 07:46:08 it complicates information and dependancies between such information 07:46:11 rather than simplifying it 07:46:14 its in java though 07:46:20 yah it is 07:46:25 yeah, I am just saying the concept 07:46:26 the layout 07:46:36 linking information and presenting it visually 07:46:47 i suppose 07:46:48 I am trying to find the most efficient manner of doing so 07:47:01 xml + viewer? :) 07:47:03 zz isnt what id call efficient 07:47:04 :) 07:47:28 although it can store data effectively displaying it on a text screen isnt that useful for most people 07:48:03 its a nice educational/fun project but i dont see any future for it 07:48:51 wow, critical are we =) 07:48:55 hehe 07:49:02 I think it is great for navigation 07:49:04 im always critical :) 07:49:08 almost tv hacker like 07:49:11 hehe 07:49:21 i think its a slow way of managing information 07:49:27 there needs to be a combination of things 07:49:30 id rather have a nice graphical windowing system like x :) 07:49:31 including sound and video 07:49:52 X is definitely NOT the way to represent info visually 07:49:56 in the most efficient manner 07:49:57 i did think about basing my file system on zig za 07:49:58 g 07:50:02 nor is any other gui 07:50:04 but i fear the implementation would take too long 07:50:25 i think it is 07:50:39 or maybe a holographic interface 07:50:47 but thats too futuristic 07:50:50 4 me 07:51:12 GUIs are all wrong imo 07:51:37 guis that you know of 07:51:45 yes, sorry, that's right. :) 07:51:57 and ck's gui too 07:51:58 omkgui is amazing :) 07:51:59 :) 07:52:02 lol 07:52:07 * ree does a evil laugh 07:52:13 a GI should define how apps interface with the UI, not be the UI themselves. 07:52:17 I was thinking of holography 07:52:22 gi? 07:52:24 my gui will be to kde as bash is to the dos shell 07:52:28 then you could just have a simple language for defining the actual UI. 07:52:31 me too ree 07:52:44 government issue? 07:52:45 but thats way too hard to use 07:52:48 Graphics Interface 07:52:50 :) 07:52:51 :) 07:52:55 i hate 3d games most of the time, and i think 3d is not the way to go 07:52:55 gi joe 07:52:57 <-- joe 07:53:10 hmm 07:53:13 Deusy: simple language? 07:53:21 not really 07:53:25 kde is less usable than windows 07:53:29 it will be completely hard coded 07:53:33 I really hope you do not base it on kde 07:53:37 but modular 07:53:39 i reckon an app should have a list of outputs, eg Textoutput,ProgramMenu,etc 07:53:43 I think 3d may be the way to go 07:53:45 instead of themes, there will be rendering plugins 07:53:48 I just don't think we've mastered it yet 07:53:52 the good thing is the file manager 07:53:53 for visual rep of info 07:54:18 you can create easy batch tasks, for example, you could start selecting files starting with a and it would automatically prompt you to select all files with a* 07:54:22 as its wildchar 07:54:39 then you just have a simple scripting language that describes how they should look. 07:54:59 hmm 07:55:05 hehe 07:55:09 i doubt that 07:55:12 it will just be boxes 07:55:16 spend a few years studying a UI ck =) 07:55:17 buttons are red 07:55:18 then design one 07:55:21 windows are grayt 07:55:35 im still working on my optimised line drawing algo 07:55:41 but it will be demo'able in sdl very soon 07:55:48 just fixing a few technicalities 07:59:08 like 07:59:10 not working at all? 07:59:12 :) 08:00:21 its working 08:00:34 just got to get input handling working 08:00:57 i need to write a portability layer between it and sdl to emulate my os keyboard and mouse services 08:01:15 ive already got my virtual key system working in omikron but omkgui 08:01:34 i also need a few more widgits and i need to make a gui design ap 08:01:36 i need menus 08:01:40 so much :) 08:01:45 oh and my event system hehe 08:01:54 corsairk8: How about paging and segmenting? 08:02:02 heh, this is a linux demo app hehe 08:02:08 im doing it seperately from the os 08:02:24 usermode gui :) 08:02:57 hm 08:03:03 Well, in the OS? 08:03:14 Got paging/segmenting working? 08:03:33 yes, after properly redocumenting my graphics api and making a few changes and getting my vesa driver and vx86 services working ill plug it in 08:03:41 segmentation worked a while ago 08:03:52 paging works but right now it crashes the os when i turn it on 08:04:08 * rob_ert is away: Eating 08:04:16 im currently transitioning it to use seperate paging for each process 08:04:28 my c++ omk version does paging nicely :) 08:06:07 right now im so depressed from my memory routines not working so i think ill work on my windowing crap some more 08:08:45 what's your os? 08:10:45 corsairk8: do you have a web page where i can read about it? 08:10:46 :) 08:12:13 Deusy: unfortionately not yet 08:12:17 its Omikron 08:12:24 the best operating sys 08:12:27 tem 08:12:34 and im still looking for hosting for a site 08:13:01 * corsairk8 switches on secondary pc and boots windows 08:13:07 :) 08:16:12 i better get designing my php oriented site and start converting over the docs 08:16:23 im still wondering whether to use php/mysql or just go with plain html 08:19:56 * rob_ert is back (gone 00:15:48) 08:21:16 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 08:23:26 corsairk8: depends what u want really 08:23:46 if you want a few papers on what u r doing, just plain html 08:24:06 easy as. 08:24:27 noo! write perl CGIs 08:25:01 oh god no... :) 08:25:05 * ink leaves - bye all 08:25:16 bye 08:25:16 :) 08:25:17 stupid class =/ 08:25:19 oh well 08:25:20 ciao 08:25:32 bye 08:29:29 ah 08:31:35 i dont think im ready to make a site yet anyway 08:45:44 hey ree, are you still willing to give me a shell account and hosting on dist? 08:48:58 heya ree you there? 08:49:13 do you have cvs or mysql/php on your servers too? 08:49:19 yello? 08:52:46 ...lorry, red lorry. 09:10:31 --- join: spyck (spyck@i80.ryd.student.liu.se) joined #osdev 09:10:39 hi.. :) 09:12:22 Hej hå :) 09:16:44 byee 09:16:47 --- quit: Deusy () 09:19:46 --- join: cookin (~jrydberg@d212-151-44-154.swipnet.se) joined #osdev 09:20:16 Hej :0) 09:20:28 hejhej 09:20:59 hej 09:28:21 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:29:18 gee i'm thirsty 09:29:36 Drink. 09:57:32 --- quit: spyck (No route to host) 10:02:53 --- quit: jgraham ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") 10:03:12 yeah yeah 10:21:36 back 10:22:49 --- join: knyx (dutkiewicz@3.portland-16-17rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #osdev 10:27:44 --- quit: knyx () 10:29:25 --- quit: fressleep (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:59:45 --- quit: ree (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:09:36 eyey! 11:12:36 yoyo! 11:22:44 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 11:22:55 * rob_ert is away: XD 11:33:44 --- nick: geist-sleep -> geist 12:01:48 --- part: geist left #osdev 12:20:09 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:23:09 hey rob_ert you there? 12:41:45 --- quit: cookin ("Client Exiting") 12:41:57 hey could people check out my template and let me know what you think -> http://freedii.sourceforge.net/omk.html 12:45:21 --- join: wossname (meh@Toronto-ppp271880.sympatico.ca) joined #osdev 12:45:35 join # 12:45:46 argh 12:49:24 hmmm wossname 12:56:38 --- quit: rob_ert (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:56:38 --- quit: torquil (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:56:38 --- quit: air (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:58:51 --- join: gab_ (~prfalken@gaia.chx-labs.org) joined #osdev 12:58:58 --- quit: wossname (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:59:01 --- quit: corsairk8 (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:59:01 --- quit: morton (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:59:01 --- quit: FastJack (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:59:01 --- quit: r (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 12:59:19 --- join: wossname (meh@Toronto-ppp271880.sympatico.ca) joined #osdev 12:59:19 --- join: corsairk8 (~CorsairK8@pc-62-30-122-106-cr.blueyonder.co.uk) joined #osdev 12:59:19 --- join: morton (~pr@speights.bcl.co.nz) joined #osdev 12:59:19 --- join: FastJack (fastjack@160.45.211.152) joined #osdev 12:59:19 --- join: r (r@cx1213936-c.phnx1.az.home.com) joined #osdev 12:59:28 --- join: torquil (~mac@c4s1m16.access.ntelos.net) joined #osdev 12:59:28 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #osdev 12:59:42 --- join: air (brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #osdev 13:00:11 --- quit: rob_ert (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 13:00:11 --- quit: torquil (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 13:00:14 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #osdev 13:00:14 --- join: torquil (~mac@c4s1m16.access.ntelos.net) joined #osdev 13:04:50 --- quit: gab (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:12:02 --- nick: gab_ -> gab 13:17:28 --- join: DRF (shadowdf@host213-121-67-156.surfport24.v21.co.uk) joined #osdev 13:34:21 --- quit: ink (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:34:36 --- join: ink (~ink@user-vcauum0.dsl.mindspring.com) joined #osdev 13:34:59 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 13:36:47 --- part: morton left #osdev 13:39:11 --- join: Deusy (gc@host213-122-160-234.btinternet.com) joined #osdev 13:56:50 --- join: witten_ (~witten@gw.la.creatureshop.henson.com) joined #osdev 14:05:29 * rob_ert is back (gone 02:42:34) 14:06:43 --- join: cookin (~jrydberg@d212-151-14-146.swipnet.se) joined #osdev 14:06:58 re 14:07:14 hej 14:11:39 --- join: mrtn (~pr@speights.bcl.co.nz) joined #osdev 14:11:53 Hey 14:12:12 hi 14:15:11 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:23:19 hey rob 14:23:23 check out my template plz 14:23:29 http://freedii.sf.net/omk.html 14:23:36 OK 14:23:56 ok 14:23:57 first - how can I check what Network card driver my Linux kernel uses? (I don't use modules) 14:24:45 hmm 14:24:48 lsmod 14:25:01 Heh 14:25:09 links to www.linux.com 14:25:16 hehehe 14:25:20 Module Size Used by 14:25:20 /proc/modules: No such file or directory 14:25:22 "a project to create a complete operating system for the desktop or power user, as well as a stable and powerful server 14:25:22 environment." 14:25:24 ... 14:25:30 is it really possible to create both ? 14:25:30 yup 14:25:35 of course 14:25:43 look at win nt 14:26:01 as stable desktop environment can easily be a good server 14:26:07 with enough testing 14:26:14 hrm 14:26:23 i find it disturbing that you link Unix to www.linux.com 14:26:24 :/ 14:26:34 well, it can be good at both, but not superior at both. 14:27:55 it can if it's designed well. 14:28:21 linux as a desktop suffers from a lack of design, for instance. 14:28:39 mrtn: why is that? 14:29:01 linux is more or less a rip off of all other unix os's like bsd 14:29:04 solaris 14:29:04 linux is mostly a unix knockoff :/ 14:29:08 it runs the same software 14:29:14 s/rip/knock : 14:29:16 :) 14:29:32 minix the useless unix ;) 14:30:29 link to www.unix.org instead :) 14:35:24 --- join: cenbri` (00000@ncdial1-195-1-nc.nordcom.net) joined #osdev 14:35:40 --- nick: cenbri` -> nilsw` 14:36:00 --- quit: nilsw (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:36:05 --- nick: nilsw` -> nilsw 14:40:15 okay than 14:40:36 is that a joke? 14:40:49 unix.org just has <¬!-- ##### .... #### --¬> 14:40:51 unix.org just has <¬!-- ##### .... #### --¬> 14:40:53 arg 14:40:56 stupid xchat 14:40:58 hehe 14:41:00 heh 14:42:59 --- quit: Deusy (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:46:57 --- quit: DRF (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 14:46:57 --- quit: torquil (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 14:46:57 --- quit: rob_ert (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 14:47:04 w00t 14:50:23 --- join: DRF (shadowdf@host213-121-67-156.surfport24.v21.co.uk) joined #osdev 14:50:23 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #osdev 14:50:23 --- join: torquil (~mac@c4s1m16.access.ntelos.net) joined #osdev 15:02:20 --- join: adu (~andrew@dsl-64-130-166-225.telocity.com) joined #osdev 15:02:28 --- join: Deusy (gc@host213-1-182-98.btinternet.com) joined #osdev 15:03:11 hi 15:03:28 hi 15:03:52 my mouf hurts 15:04:21 Why, you ate something bad? 15:04:35 i wen to va dentist 15:05:34 i'm going to be taking math21 this semester 15:06:00 i wonder 15:06:18 wonder wonder, who wrote the book of love... 15:06:29 --- nick: adu -> adu-gone 15:10:58 yo adu 15:11:00 damn 15:18:38 --- quit: ink ("bbiab") 15:36:54 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-66-212-245.cg.shawcable.net) joined #osdev 15:39:43 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 15:44:57 --- quit: rob_ert (Remote closed the connection) 15:48:48 --- quit: wossname ("for(i=0,j=0;++i;i==0:0?1) <-- like that ws?") 15:55:04 --- quit: adu-gone (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 15:55:26 --- join: nbsp (g@65.1.16.170) joined #osdev 16:07:37 --- quit: DRF (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 16:07:51 ack, i shoulda downloaded sorcerer last night when i could access the page 16:08:07 anyone here have it and want to share? 16:08:44 how fast is your connection? 16:08:50 fast 16:09:16 i have been leeching on netbsd for 5 days now with my 56k modem :P 16:10:05 heh 16:10:19 i dont wanna download anything from u :) 16:10:37 the site would be back up before i would get much 16:10:52 well, and i don't want you to download (in fact i don't even have sorcerer) 16:11:07 it looks pretty kewl 16:11:20 read the article on slashdot today? 16:11:24 it looks like hard work to start with. 16:11:35 read it last night 16:11:49 oh, what time is it there? 16:11:50 decided i didnt want to upgrade this box to it cuz it would be too much work 16:12:09 but today i rememebered i have another linux box with nothing on it 16:12:22 sorcerer page slashdotted, air's mind slashdotted :D 16:12:30 its 17:11 here 16:12:53 you're in usa? 16:12:57 ya 16:13:00 --- join: adu (~andrew@dsl-64-130-166-225.telocity.com) joined #osdev 16:13:04 hello? 16:13:12 corsairk! 16:13:15 hi? 16:14:12 --- quit: torquil (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 16:14:46 --- join: torquil (~mac@c2s12m12.access.ntelos.net) joined #osdev 16:16:29 hello 16:22:49 hey adu 16:23:11 hi ppl! 16:23:21 sorceror? 16:23:24 wtf is that 16:24:14 mrtn: http://slashdot.org/articles/02/01/18/1319242.shtml 16:26:29 gnight all 16:27:31 hi 16:27:39 hrm 16:27:40 gnight? 16:27:45 you actually are going to try that air? 16:27:49 its past midnight and im tired 16:27:51 i thought you were a die hard redhat fan 16:27:52 cya tommorow 16:28:02 bye 16:28:03 or today even 16:28:18 --- quit: corsairk8 (Remote closed the connection) 16:28:23 adu: send me a mac g4 w/ macosx 16:28:27 please. ;( 16:28:49 i could send you macosx but not a g4 16:28:51 sorry 16:29:24 why do you want it so bad? 16:29:27 heh 16:29:37 osx is damn cool 16:29:52 i just used a mac g4 at a computer store yesterday 16:29:59 all it is - is a bloated unix with mac libraries, and an emulator for old mac apps 16:30:00 w/ an apple 22" cinema display 16:30:06 it was the best computing experience of my life 16:30:21 o 16:30:21 don't you love Aqua though? 16:30:26 no 16:30:30 its ok 16:30:33 i use it all the time tho 16:30:45 i wish it was skinnable 16:30:58 its so low level tho, its not easy to customize 16:31:14 it's not really bloated is it? 16:31:17 you gotta replace just the right libraries, and even then apple hasn't published the interfaces 16:31:20 yes it is 16:31:38 hrm 16:31:49 its 2 APIs (Carbon/Cocoa) with a 3rd lowlevel library/server for all graphics 16:31:53 then theres Java! 16:32:33 and beneath the lowlevel server is a 4th api for the IOKit framebuffer 16:32:44 and theres 3 different rendering models 16:32:54 which i have no idea how they keep straight 16:33:09 it was really snappy on the g4 i tried though 16:33:12 really fluid and nice 16:33:20 and the unix seems very full-featured 16:33:26 good kernel 16:33:27 OpenGL, QuickDraw, Quartz, Quicktime 16:33:29 heh thats 4 16:33:45 ya 16:33:56 thats bcuz they finnaly got the accellerators finished 16:34:03 --- part: witten_ left #osdev 16:34:03 they weren't finished on 10.0 16:34:06 thats what i have 16:34:07 hmm 16:34:14 update ? 16:34:24 10.1 was released with gfx accelerators, so it was better 16:34:25 i wonder if sorcerer will even work on my other box 16:34:41 anyway 16:34:45 i better get some sleep now 16:34:47 it requires 1gig of ram+swap and i only have 256+128 (i think) 16:34:48 --- quit: cookin ("Client Exiting") 16:35:20 this box only has 320+512 16:35:31 --- join: DRF (shadowdf@host213-121-67-156.surfport24.v21.co.uk) joined #osdev 16:37:04 uh 16:37:06 the hell 16:37:12 what kind of lame distro is that 16:37:14 that it requires so much ram 16:37:22 it compiles all packages 16:37:30 oh 16:37:34 hmm 16:37:57 and it has some sorta tmpfs that uses swap to make compiling even faster 16:38:30 hrm 16:38:30 it will compile small packages but the 1gig is needed for large one 16:38:31 s 16:38:37 and brix will does this automatically right? :) 16:38:47 everything compiled for the user's machine :) 16:39:32 brix compiles all packages but since it compiles on the method level u will never need very much ram 16:40:32 does anyone know ftp servers where i can get aix or hp-ux iso images? 16:40:57 and the packages will be very small because so much code is reused among packages 16:41:18 nilsw: u mean warez servers :) 16:41:27 yes :[ 16:41:30 know one? 16:41:39 no i dont 16:41:51 is there a high demand for those in the warez community :) 16:41:54 uh 16:42:00 is there any demand 16:42:04 do you have any machines capable of running aix or hpux? 16:42:08 nils 16:42:36 i can get OS/400 for u 16:42:50 no, but i collect operating systems :) 16:42:53 the one ISO i want 16:42:57 is NeXTSTEP 3.3 16:43:00 or OpenStep 4.2 16:43:04 any of you guys have those ISOs? 16:43:13 not me 16:43:53 aix and hpux are lame 16:43:57 anyway 16:44:03 and what's the point of having the ISOS if you can't run them? 16:45:05 just having it :D. and maybe i get a machine that's able to run em later 16:45:27 if you want to get hpux or aix 16:45:37 get a cheap old HP workstation/IBM rs/6000 on ebay 16:45:44 you can get an old HP 712/100 for cheap 16:45:48 liek $100 or so 16:45:56 comes with HPUX preloaded 16:46:10 nah, first i need a sparc 16:46:52 lol 16:47:01 again, those are quite cheap 16:48:23 yes, but i don't have money atm 16:48:56 why do you need a sparc though? 16:49:42 because i wanna feel the power of a power station :b 16:50:31 lol 16:50:44 a cheap PC would outperform almost all the old sparcstations 16:51:49 well, i don't want an old station. since newer ones are more expensive, that's the reason why i can't afford one atm 16:52:33 an athlon could easily outperform even an old Ultrasparc 16:52:44 you'd have to get one of the newer ultra's or the blades to get some power 16:52:59 --- quit: air (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 16:53:01 sun's don't have good price/performance ratio 16:53:24 yeah :| 16:58:41 i'm updating my site 16:58:47 --- quit: DRF () 16:58:49 just do everyone knows :) 16:59:28 --- join: df (~yakumo@host217-39-36-247.in-addr.btopenworld.com) joined #osdev 17:00:25 what's your site URL? 17:02:15 eh? 17:03:03 hmm xmach wont let me cvs... strange. 17:04:12 xmach? 17:04:20 www.xmach.org 17:05:27 neat 17:06:07 the install procedure is bloody convoluted heh. which is a bit of a shame 17:07:12 yes 17:07:18 that looks cool 17:08:19 i'd test it on my sparc but its a bloody nightmare to install anything on it. 17:08:57 what kind of sparc do you have? 17:09:02 ss5? 17:09:06 --- quit: nilsw ("join #psl! hm.. :-(") 17:09:34 yeah just a lil old ss5 17:11:41 heh 17:11:49 i'm thinking of buying a sparcstation 20 myself 17:13:06 they are unbeleivable slow ;) 17:13:37 really? 17:13:43 yeah 17:13:49 i thought the 20's were ok 17:13:58 anything 10 and above .. 17:16:30 my ss5 is a 110 model. wouldnt want to compile antthing big on it 17:16:49 how much ram? 17:16:50 but saying that you could put two 120 mbus modules into the ss20... 17:16:53 and diskspace 17:17:07 ya, i'm thikning of getting a dual proc ss20 17:17:19 i got 64mb in mine with 4gb scsi. no floppy, no cdrom, only ethernet. 17:17:58 hrm 17:18:02 64mb is low 17:18:03 i'd get at least 128mb or so 17:18:04 in teh ss20 17:18:09 that would probably help alot 17:18:30 its expensive, comparitvly speaking. 17:18:46 --- quit: Deusy (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:18:56 --- join: bpj (bpj@dsl-cle-166-9.lightstreamdsl.net) joined #osdev 17:20:24 yello 17:24:52 hey bpj 17:25:24 what's going on? 17:31:11 * bpj wonders where the money goes when stock is taken off the market.. 17:32:02 the company gets the money or what? they surely don't credit the stockholders.. (i know this first hand) 17:34:30 --- join: air (brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #osdev 17:34:41 heh.. 17:34:57 'sup dude? 17:35:59 not much 17:36:34 heh 17:36:40 chillin', air? 17:42:19 morton, is that you? hehe 17:50:51 hehe.. ok dudes.. i just got "the e-mail".. 17:51:15 it looks like i might have a chance to work at 3do.. 17:51:28 * bpj dances 17:55:18 some dude is gonna call on monday to ask "technical questions".. hrm.. 17:59:05 3do still exist? didnt they go under when their 'game console' failed? 17:59:33 yeah, i think they just make games now.. 17:59:52 hmm 2am. time to crash. ja matte ne 17:59:53 --- quit: df ("syntax: i'm rooled") 17:59:54 --- join: df (~yakumo@host217-39-36-247.in-addr.btopenworld.com) joined #osdev 17:59:55 --- quit: df (Remote closed the connection) 18:04:03 --- quit: futhin () 18:05:01 --- quit: air (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 18:10:27 man, i wonder if i can pull my life out of the fire once again.. 18:10:30 --- join: air (brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #osdev 18:11:14 --- quit: air (Remote closed the connection) 18:11:39 --- join: air (brand@12.254.199.50) joined #osdev 18:11:51 stupid netsplits 18:17:00 * bpj wonders what technical questions.. 18:46:36 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o air 18:46:49 --- mode: air set mode: -o air 18:56:37 hey 19:04:43 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:07:52 " 19:07:52 You can learn a lot about an individual 19:07:52 just by reading through his code, 19:07:52 even in hexadecimal." 19:08:02 :) 19:09:11 heh.. 19:11:41 i love the Story of Mel 19:11:52 it inspires me every time i read it 19:12:03 What story of Mel? 19:12:09 http://info.astrian.net/jargon/Hacker_Folklore/The_Story_of_Mel.html 19:12:10 that one 19:12:22 Hmm... :) 19:13:34 --- quit: Guest30571 ("ircN 7.26 + 7.0 for mIRC (2001/04/03 20.00)") 19:14:43 --- join: nuttybar (~ubiquity@cpe-24-221-255-164.ut.sprintbbd.net) joined #osdev 19:21:51 Heh, I read that before. 19:22:00 It inspires me too. :P 19:25:00 hrm, so the dude never evolved.. 19:25:43 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-66-212-245.cg.shawcable.net) joined #osdev 19:27:17 bbl.. 19:31:33 evolved? 19:35:17 adu: evolved = grew breasts. 19:35:23 ala man boobs. 19:35:50 only the truly elite men in our society have them. 19:42:14 yeah! 19:42:24 lol 19:42:39 anyway 19:42:43 tell me what you think so far 19:42:52 3 or 4 of the pages have no content 19:42:58 i haveto find my notes on them 19:43:06 homepage.mac.com/andrewrobbins 19:43:14 o crap 19:43:15 just a sec 19:46:40 its so slow 19:46:43 crap 19:55:30 ah 19:55:35 now you can see it :) 20:01:49 hehe, man, op-lang sounds awefully like crush.. 20:01:58 (that's not a good thing) 20:03:41 wow 20:03:42 that's amazing 20:03:48 you make programs in PPC asm? 20:03:53 * mrtn f3ars 20:04:37 crush == Brix, right? 20:04:37 heh 20:04:48 crush == language for brix 20:05:14 crush == what happens when you use brix.. 20:05:15 adu: that high resolution picture of you is a bit too high-res. :-) 20:05:27 adu: i can see your nostril hair. 20:05:46 i only like my porn at that resolution. 20:05:46 heh 20:06:04 unfortunately, all the good porn is low-res. 20:06:22 uh 20:06:25 uh 20:06:27 uh 20:06:51 enough about porn, would you like a candybar little girl? 20:07:01 * mrtn backs away from nuttybar slowly 20:10:48 *laugh* 20:12:59 bah to high-res porn, i don't like seeing all the flaws the girls have, cause only ugly girls are porn stars 20:13:11 stores shouldn't sell merchandise that's past it's expiration date! 20:13:34 is the store past it's own expiration date? 20:14:06 that I don't know 20:15:00 or perhaps the clerks are past their expiration date 20:15:31 when clerks go bad, they go postal 20:17:32 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 20:18:05 slapdash: AOL in Negotiations to Buy Red Hat? 20:19:47 Sun in negotations to buy Microsoft? 20:19:51 ack! 20:20:05 lol 20:21:02 mrtn: its not yet April Fools. :-P 20:21:19 i'm checking slashdot to make sure ! 20:21:27 darn 20:21:34 sun not buying microsoft 20:23:26 hrm 20:23:38 is it possible to download the latest Solaris from Sun.com (for sparcs)? 20:23:44 you know everything you read on slashdot is true 20:33:50 how viable would a small parallel processing computer maybe with 2-6 MIPS R4000s be? 20:34:19 how about with Z80s? 20:37:52 anybody? 20:38:16 Hey Dan, what do you think about Slashdot? 20:38:37 dan? 20:38:49 http://www.crummy.com/articles/make_dan_complain.shtml 20:39:17 i have it bookmarked. :-) 20:39:19 heh 20:41:35 hey mort! 20:41:57 waht would you say to an R4000 MP System? 20:45:34 damn you all!!!!!!! 20:46:24 ok 20:48:24 ok what? 20:48:25 nuttybar: slashdot is the antithesis of reasoned discourse 20:48:47 dan == witten? 20:49:04 ya 20:49:20 heh 20:49:26 DAMN 20:49:31 dan wins that round! 20:49:35 we must stump him yet! 20:50:21 naw 20:50:24 was that funny? :P 20:52:12 yeah so what do you say to the MP Sys? 20:52:14 =) 20:52:26 Hey Dan, what do you think of the distortion of the space time continuum? 20:57:31 mrtn: it sucks 20:57:42 score! 20:57:45 POINTS FOR ME 20:58:54 --- quit: futhin ("bye") 21:23:28 i'm back 21:23:35 wb 21:23:44 mrtn: yes i do 21:23:55 :) 21:24:03 did you like objadro? 21:24:08 isn't it sooo cool? 21:27:13 trans: thx 21:28:04 yup 21:28:31 the ancient form has the same letters only you overlay them to make a sylable 21:28:41 i can't wait to get the site into a presentable form 21:28:54 it feels so good to have all my different ideas in one place 21:30:11 mart: do you do asm programming? 21:30:22 yes 21:30:24 it must fell good to have all your ideas SOMEWHERE even 21:30:26 x86? 21:30:27 x86 only 21:30:30 ya 21:30:30 and some sparc 21:30:47 i've read x86 asm, but there are too many intr. for me 21:30:50 ppc is easier 21:30:57 yes 21:30:59 less to remember cuz its risc 21:31:10 also its easier bcuz its what i use... hehe 21:31:17 i don't own a pc 21:31:19 just a mac 21:31:23 macs rule 21:31:27 yup 21:31:27 if i had more money i'd buy one 21:31:35 but pc's rule the busniss world 21:31:43 woah 21:31:47 i have to content myself with using them at the store :/ 21:31:49 that'd be a cool T-shirt 21:32:11 PC's rule our businesses. 21:32:15 Macs just rule 21:32:20 hehehe 21:32:26 macs are very cool 21:32:31 now that they have a decent OS 21:32:38 ya 21:32:42 before OSX they really weren't that great 21:32:47 Mac OS X was _SORELY_ 21:32:48 needed 21:32:51 osx just kicks ass 21:33:17 well, not only does osx make macs look great, it also makes unix 'look' great 21:33:34 bcuz they gave unix an appearance that people can relate to 21:33:52 yes 21:33:56 bcuz most people can't 'see' OS archs the way prof IT ppl can 21:34:01 there's no other GUI for UNIX that is as nice imo 21:34:05 heh some prof IT ppl can't even 21:34:34 i'd say Berlin is nicer, but its still in development 21:34:57 Berlin is an attempt to replace X11 with a lib called GGI maybe you've heard of it 21:35:15 X11 just sucks 21:35:45 its productive, and an effective tool for some network-problems, but it just plain sucks 21:35:54 hrm, so what does the mac gui run on if it uses unix now? 21:36:15 there are many levels to Mac graphics now 21:36:20 it used to be just QuickDraw 21:36:30 which was implemented with hardware traps even 21:37:20 now tho, theres IOGraphicsLib, Quartz, QuickDraw, QuickTime, OpenGL, and Aqua 21:37:39 IOGraphicsLib is the lowest level, and is part of IOKit, the part that talks to the graphics cards 21:38:26 Quartz is the next level up, and is implemented in the "CoreGraphics" library as well as the "Window Server" background process 21:38:45 apple documentation uses Quartz and CoreGraphics interchangebly 21:39:13 so Quartz Lib/Server and CoreGraphics Lib/Server are the same thing 21:39:55 ok, so at least they didn't use x11.. 21:39:56 QuickDraw is implemented much higher level in OSX than in 9, and i think its mapped to Quartz's vector-based model 21:40:01 no they didn't 21:40:30 but theres a version of X11 with drivers for IOKit (for Darwin) and Quartz (for use along with MacOSX) 21:40:52 bcuz IOKit is opensource, its part of Darwin 21:40:58 but Quartz is proprietary 21:41:44 another part of Darwin thats important is CoreFoundation, which is based on Foundation.framework, the non-GUI part of Cocoa 21:42:01 the GUI part of Cocoa is in the AppKit.framework 21:42:11 kinda analegous to libgnome and libgnomeui 21:42:32 adu: what would you say to a MIPS R4000 Multiprocessor system (2-6 processors) 21:42:40 hello 21:43:02 or maybe i would ask it out on a date :) 21:43:20 trans, let me guess.. sgi.. hehe 21:43:34 open arch 21:43:45 designed for hacking 21:43:49 what are you talking about dude? 21:43:55 Hi, um ms. smp-mips, um you wouldn't happen to be free next weekend would you? 21:44:15 a comp system 21:44:27 are you designing it? 21:44:32 yes 21:44:39 you are? 21:44:47 but there are already MIPS comps 21:44:50 i made an mp card w/ Z80 21:44:53 so 21:45:07 whats wrong with them? 21:45:12 not big enough? 21:45:13 hehehe 21:45:21 not fast enough? 21:45:22 i can just as easily use another proc 21:45:38 proc? 21:45:44 processor 21:45:46 o 21:45:49 ic 21:45:59 what do you thing? 21:46:09 well if you build it, fly me to where you live, and i'll help you hack it 21:46:15 maybe $500 for a 4 proc sys 21:46:23 :) 21:46:30 would you buy? 21:46:36 500? 21:46:41 for 4?!?!? 21:46:45 complete schematics supplied 21:46:45 damn 21:46:56 good or bad? 21:46:59 good 21:47:17 hmm 21:47:23 it would not be very usable as an actual sys though 21:47:41 would it come with firmware? 21:47:44 someone would have to port an os at least 21:47:52 yes 21:47:53 ok 21:47:55 thats good 21:48:01 flash would be the best 21:48:11 all source providud 21:48:14 i'd hate to haveto bootstrap it 21:48:25 oh 21:48:33 you sorta would 21:48:42 i think OpenBSD has a MIPS port 21:49:18 are you going to get one too? 21:49:31 it would be incompatable with current mp standards 21:49:39 ok 21:50:00 but you could use a single proc. vers in order to bootstrap it right? 21:50:05 or at least prototype 21:50:16 the main point is so people can hack some cheap mp system really 21:50:26 ? 21:50:41 all io would be dif. 21:50:56 i'm wondering if its poossible to get a single processor version of Something working so it is possible to hack an MP-OS for it 21:51:04 o ok 21:51:12 are you still designing it? 21:51:20 it could run with ony 1 proc 21:51:22 or do you want me to buy tomorrow? 21:51:33 or with only 1 running (maybe) 21:51:41 no no 21:51:52 but why use one if you haveto recode anyway? right :) 21:51:54 it isn't even started really 21:52:04 heh pl 21:52:06 ok 21:52:12 s/pl/ok/ 21:52:18 yeah but the standards are shitty and bloated 21:52:23 then i have time to get a job 21:52:25 hehehe 21:52:42 trans, have you designed graphics interfaces? 21:52:43 i hear sparc is like 3rd best chip 21:52:50 not yet 21:52:53 and Alpha and MIPS are the best 21:53:13 who was asking me about MacOSX gfx? 21:53:26 <-- 21:53:28 i have a monochrome syn genorator circuit if it actually works 21:53:29 o 21:53:38 sync 21:53:45 bpj: so are you satisfied with my answer? 21:53:58 yes, i was.. 21:54:03 ok 21:54:22 i spent much of my initial days with OSX learning about its "plumbing" :) 21:54:22 do you think it would sell well? 21:54:40 depends 21:55:10 you should evaluate why its better, and design according to what you hope to accomplish 21:55:47 fuck i just want my OWN mp sys 21:56:01 be it money, ease of programming, simplicity, configurability... 21:56:19 no you don't 21:56:19 simplicity a must 21:56:25 ? 21:56:32 no i dont what? 21:56:34 you want to raise standard for the world 21:56:43 ? 21:56:47 heh, mp systems are not simple.. 21:56:49 jk 21:57:00 but they can be made simple 21:57:29 i want people to stop always trying to use x86 as the ultimate answer just because it is cheap 21:57:42 trans: i'm working on integrating my ideas in an OS, hopefully an SMP one 21:57:42 pc is such a SHITTY arch 21:58:03 i hope for it to include RWS, Ulmae, and Mathix 21:58:04 which ideas? 21:58:28 ulmae is the preprocessor that prerprocesses itself 21:59:05 and Mathix is my node/length/angle/pair based theoretical framework 21:59:54 oh i had a col idea for a distributed system too a while ago 21:59:54 that's great.. maybe you can resurrect einstein and teach him how to use it.. ;) 21:59:58 =) 22:00:12 huh? 22:00:27 * adu fails to see what einstein has to do with it 22:01:11 it will be an adaptive API 22:01:11 * bpj laughs 22:01:31 are you writing it in that alien language you're workin on? 22:01:39 no 22:01:45 thats different 22:01:48 adu: have you seen urinel much? 22:02:04 i only said RWS, Ulmae and Mathix, NOT Objadro 22:02:14 trans: i haven't looked at it 22:02:37 it has adjustable API essentually 22:02:48 cool 22:03:16 i don't look at urinals much either, but the cakes are pretty tasty. 22:03:23 lol 22:03:42 your not supposed to eat those! 22:03:45 hehe 22:04:07 whats your site again? 22:04:17 heh, did you see fear factor where they ate cow brains.. chewy.. 22:04:23 <- ? 22:04:59 bpj: i never heard of any brain eating phobias. 22:05:42 it was really nasty, i got sick just watching it.. 22:05:44 trans: ya 22:05:54 saberwockey.fn.org? 22:06:09 i am just rebooting it 22:06:14 o 22:06:25 jabberwocky.hn.org 22:06:29 o ok 22:06:41 dont you know jabberwocky? 22:06:59 o the poem? 22:07:01 ya i do 22:07:12 yup 22:07:32 i renamed RWS to RedWig 22:09:12 hehe.. 22:09:50 is that some kinda takeoff on redhat? 22:09:50 is it finished booting? 22:10:04 um, i didn't think about that 22:10:12 no 22:10:32 i could have just as well called it ReWidg 22:10:40 k its up 22:10:44 coo 22:12:45 trans, where would you buy a r4000 anyway, or do you just rip them out of N64's.. lol 22:13:14 it is are licienced out 22:13:41 ? 22:13:46 IDT, NEC and a bunch of other chip makers make them 22:14:06 i,d probably go with IDT 22:14:11 and you buy like 1000 lots? 22:14:28 NEC has R10000/12000s though 22:14:33 no 22:14:41 maybe 25 - 100 22:15:24 cheap SMP systems would sell like hotcakes 22:15:26 --- join: _ruiner_ (nater@216.54.152.190) joined #osdev 22:15:36 especially if they had a cool OS on them that was better than OSX 22:15:42 so how fast is the bus on that thing? 22:15:45 that is very nice to here =) 22:16:12 trans: ftp isn't working 22:16:14 the main bus or the processor bus? 22:16:17 maybe its slow 22:16:24 i know 22:16:35 umm.. like the memory bus.. 22:16:39 try 209.53.48.172 22:16:49 may be a router prob 22:17:14 well for main mem the main bus woulb be used 22:17:51 yeah, so.. 22:18:03 for private me where programs are temporarily stored it would be as fast as the processor can read 22:18:20 main bus is async 22:18:49 there is overhead plus waiting for it to be free 22:20:12 i have no idea how fast it would be 22:21:12 adu: did the ip work? 22:24:58 --- quit: nuttybar () 22:27:09 IDT RC4650 (R4000) 1500MB/s bandwidth from internal caches up to 533MB/s external bus bandwidth 22:34:30 wow.. 22:35:22 do you think you'd still be interested if it used Z80s? 22:37:51 hehe.. why? 22:38:18 because im more likely to actually get that card working =)\ 22:42:49 hrm, even the r4000 is pretty slow, z80's are super slow, right? 1mhz? 22:43:24 i'd use 6 Mhz 22:43:28 brb 22:43:36 --- quit: adu (Remote closed the connection) 22:43:50 they have ones rated at 33MHz 22:45:23 it depends on what you want to run too 22:45:48 CP/M is Z80 material 22:45:53 --- quit: _ruiner_ () 22:49:26 heh, mips instructions have 3 operands.. 22:49:39 RISC 22:59:26 http://www.cas.uc.edu/~ciminero/Courses/483/Overhead/mips_intr_set.html 23:03:43 heh, ps 1 also uses mips? hrm 23:04:09 ps 2 has a mips based proc too 23:04:30 --- join: nuttybar (~ubiquity@cpe-24-221-255-164.ut.sprintbbd.net) joined #osdev 23:06:54 i thought it was a SH 23:07:15 oh, that must be the gamecube.. 23:07:38 maybe not.. heh.. i think that uses a ppc.. 23:08:02 gamecube has ppc 23:19:15 --- join: adu (~andrew@dsl-64-130-166-225.telocity.com) joined #osdev 23:25:31 i'm gonna crash.. 23:26:03 --- join: downix (~downix@user-38ldfmq.dialup.mindspring.com) joined #osdev 23:27:29 --- nick: air -> air2 23:27:38 see, you're not dead aie 23:27:39 air 23:29:49 --- quit: bwb ("BitchX: it makes bathtime lots of fun!") 23:31:57 --- nick: air2 -> air 23:32:15 any smart C coders in here? 23:32:45 nope 23:32:50 =) 23:33:08 i call gettimeofday(&tv, NULL) from two threads but the one thread is always getting the same value in tv 23:33:22 it updates tv once every several seconds 23:33:40 the second thread? 23:33:48 even tho gettimeofday() is being called just as much as the one in the other thread 23:34:07 gettimeofday() works fine in the main thread 23:34:21 but not in the second thread 23:34:33 any ideas? 23:34:56 no sorry 23:59:59 --- log: ended osdev/02.01.18