00:00:00 --- log: started osdev/02.06.21 00:07:11 --- join: witten (~witten@adsl-gte-la-216-86-210-121.mminternet.com) joined #osdev 00:24:42 --- quit: witten ("bye") 00:25:06 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:58:56 is it possible to display a string that contains $0, and other $ items, without \ escaping them in bash?? 00:59:33 printf works but then i have the problem with % sequences 01:08:22 have you tried "'"? 01:08:25 single quotes 01:22:39 why? 01:23:40 echo thinks anything that begins with $ is a shell variable 01:24:12 and printf thinks anything that begins with % is an argument thingy 01:25:14 well then I guess you're screwed 01:25:43 --- nick: geist -> geist-sleep 01:45:52 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 01:53:11 --- join: muphicks (~Gazza@earthforce.freeserve.co.uk) joined #osdev 02:16:02 --- quit: nbsp ("-_-.zZ") 02:28:51 --- join: Mathis (Mathis@gstw-d9b89f35.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #osdev 02:33:41 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:34:30 --- join: tenzin (xtofu@p217-tnt2.mel.ihug.com.au) joined #osdev 02:43:26 --- join: kemu (~Jonas@adsl-63865.turboline.skynet.be) joined #osdev 03:01:35 --- quit: Mathis ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 03:09:27 --- join: ree (ree@ip68-3-235-207.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #osdev 03:09:32 hey kids 03:09:59 --- quit: air (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:11:09 hey ya. 03:11:14 hey mup 03:11:18 interesting nick 03:11:24 :) 03:11:30 cause I'm a muppit at most things :P 03:11:34 hehe 03:11:53 I bet it is real fun to type :) 03:11:58 lol 03:12:12 Its unique though :) 03:13:48 I've got a quick question, I've got a working bootloaded (oooo :P that sets cpu to protected mode and then calls my c kernel. I want to be able to use printf etc so I'm trying to port libc to my os. Which I'm assuming should be quite simple since my os is to run on intel i386 based arch and gnu libc works on that. But I'm not sure how to go about it, any ideas? 03:14:42 you don't really need a full glibc for your kernel 03:14:59 back 03:15:10 most of the time printf, memset, memcpy and a few others are enough 03:15:23 --- join: air (brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #osdev 03:15:27 hey air 03:15:28 * air cries 03:15:32 why are you building another C os 03:15:35 * air cries a river 03:15:37 not you air 03:15:48 well, at least you are still alive to cry air 03:15:55 and not dying from cancer or something 03:15:57 * air cries harder than any girl has ever cried 03:16:03 * ree grins 03:16:08 uhm... what's wrong air? 03:16:41 brb 03:16:43 i was playing a game of tfc and kicking some serious ass when a BIG FSCKING BOLT of LIGHTING hit the house 03:16:58 lol 03:17:00 i could feel it in the air 03:17:06 air is a former os coder 03:17:17 turned gui porter 03:17:21 and THE MOTHER FSCKER CAUSED THIS MACHINE TO RESET 03:17:22 turned 24/7 gamer 03:17:34 i had a ~150 day uptime 03:17:36 air: lightning is gods way of saying you've been on the net too long 03:17:56 dex: So if I port those fer functions from the libc source, would I just link the compiled objs to the kernel to fix extern refs etc? 03:18:12 * muphicks doesn't play tfc, he still plays good old Halflife :) 03:18:23 well, 145 days 03:18:36 all i wanted in life is to see a 150 day uptime 03:18:42 now i have nothing to live for 03:18:54 well 03:19:05 at least you didn't put your expectations high 03:19:27 im gonna sue apc 03:20:01 muphicks: yea you could do that i suppose 03:20:13 5 computers all on and this is the only one that reset 03:21:05 dax: what other ways are there? 03:21:15 muphicks: write them yourself? 03:21:36 145 days 8 hours and 25 minutes 03:21:42 hehe I thought you were talking about the method of linking :P 03:21:51 nah 03:22:01 I intend to write them myself but based on existing code as I've never done anything like this before :) 03:23:24 ree: wtf are u doing here? 03:24:07 03:09:27 --- join: ree (ree@ip68-3-235-207.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #osdev 03:24:07 03:09:32 hey kids 03:24:07 03:09:59 --- quit: air (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 03:25:44 funny how u join the channel for the first time in months and suddenly a bolt of lightning hits me 03:26:01 lol 03:26:41 anyone know how much brazil played against england ? 03:26:48 2-1 03:26:48 :(((((((((((( 03:27:12 come on Senegal :) 03:27:17 kemu: we should have played against england. 03:27:35 dax you know I'm dutch ? 03:27:43 belgian 03:27:51 heh 03:27:52 hehe :) 03:27:56 planet internet 03:28:04 (~Jonas@adsl-63865.turboline.skynet.be) 03:28:09 yah 03:28:20 you speak frence or dutch ? 03:29:59 dutch 03:30:59 hehe zelfde hier kom eens naar het dutch kanaal :) 03:31:23 anyone have an uptime of less than a day but more than an hour? 03:31:39 yes. 03:31:41 I think I have 03:32:22 could u paste the line here 03:32:41 no i can't 03:33:18 up 22:36, 1 user, load average: 0.07, 0.09, 0.08 03:35:06 thanks 03:36:50 hmm 03:36:56 i guess now i can go buy more ram 03:38:16 lol 03:42:04 time to go commit suicide 03:42:10 --- quit: air ("CRIA v0.2.3pre -- http://www.qzx.com/cria") 03:45:25 finally 03:45:27 heh 03:47:21 I knew that little lightning bolt stunt of mine would send him over the edge >] 03:48:02 ... 03:48:13 ...? 03:48:22 as in 'dot dot dot' 03:48:25 so dax 03:48:30 how is your dev osing 03:48:37 ... 03:49:18 --- join: air (brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #osdev 03:50:14 * dax wonders where his copy of fallout2 is 03:56:40 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 04:01:46 --- join: Javanx (~javanx@213.45.18.78) joined #osdev 04:02:06 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h237n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #osdev 04:04:29 --- join: oink (~ziga@void.phear.org) joined #osdev 04:05:43 --- nick: muphicks -> muphicks|AFK 04:10:42 great answer 04:10:45 ... 04:10:52 --- join: tirloni (gpt@neutron.tirloni.org) joined #osdev 04:11:09 Hi little ree. 04:12:13 oh shit 04:12:25 i just found the point of entry 04:12:54 that lightning bolt entered my computer via the LAN ethernet card 04:14:32 Hrm. 04:14:34 hmm 04:14:39 Is sourceforge down or something? 04:14:48 the hub can see the ethernet card 04:14:59 250lb little ree 04:15:10 sf is always down 04:15:14 hey tirloni 04:15:14 :) 04:15:26 you're more likely to see 04:15:30 250 lb makes... like 110 kg, doesn't it? 04:15:35 ,nick> is sourceforge up or something? 04:15:48 250 / 2.2 04:16:01 way off 04:16:04 113.66666666666666666666666 04:16:10 Yay. 04:16:19 That's heavy :D 04:16:28 yay 04:16:39 i get to go down tomorrow and buy a new ethernet card 04:16:54 that will set you back 2 dollars 04:17:01 heh 04:19:43 --- join: jace48 (~jace48@203.195.175.54) joined #osdev 04:20:47 --- quit: ree (".") 04:21:26 I'm here!!! for a wee bit 04:22:23 --- quit: jace48 (Client Quit) 04:22:28 looks like the hub is still good 04:22:52 hey ree 04:22:56 rob_ert, and air 04:23:00 how are you guys doing? 04:23:02 Hmm... how would I make a delay in Linux without libc? 04:23:12 oops, ree's gone 04:31:14 --- join: Mathis (Mathis@gstw-d9b89f26.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #osdev 04:31:37 Hi Mathis :) 04:32:01 How's your little OS? 04:32:04 hi rob_ert 04:32:14 my 'little' OS is growing... 04:32:19 just developing the GUI 04:32:26 and u'rs? 04:32:44 --- quit: gresco ("I'm lost in your hair") 04:33:56 Cool :) 04:34:09 Well, my old OS projects are kind of dead :P 04:34:18 I'm going to start a new one sometime. 04:34:33 Maybe after next week, when I've met Yuri :) 04:34:43 why restarting? 04:35:33 The old one has no structure, no good functions... 04:35:49 It's really just a monolithic asm kernel. 04:36:00 I c 04:36:03 Without any concepts, so everything is a quick hack :) 04:36:45 why don't you change the quick hacks into better ones? 04:37:56 --- quit: tenzin ("Do not cross if you have an open wound. Piranhas are attracted to blood.") 04:38:50 Mathis: I don't want to write everything in asm either. 04:39:15 Mathis: A lot of things is easier to do in asm, but there are also many things easier to do in C. 04:39:32 And, I will probably use code and ideas from the old one. 04:39:50 C was developed to write OSes 04:40:11 why dont you simply enter a project? 04:40:57 The problem here is that I don't think I'm skilled enough for that. 04:41:09 But if I found a good project, sure. 04:45:05 did you have a homepage for your project? 04:45:44 http://ostling.no-ip.com/ 04:45:59 Primula is the one I was talking about. 04:46:13 BozOS is...not worth any attention :) 04:46:45 attention? 04:47:17 Not worth looking at. 04:47:39 --- join: lodda (lodda@p508FCF3A.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 04:47:42 ahw 04:48:43 hi 04:52:43 since when you're working on Primula? 04:53:17 Uhm. 04:53:28 Not quite sure, it's been rewritten from scratch once. 04:54:13 I think about 6 months. 04:54:27 But then I haven't been working on it all the time. 04:54:33 Most the time I've had other projects. 04:55:15 I have no other projects next to the OS 04:57:16 Oh. 04:57:27 So, have far have you come with it? 04:57:52 well, a simple kernel with file/device management 04:57:57 memory management 04:58:08 virtual memory (of course) 04:58:18 multi-address space 04:58:32 --- quit: muphicks|AFK ("Client Exiting") 04:58:41 multitasking/threading, simple round-robin scheduler 04:58:59 and some other goodies 04:59:28 i.e. enabling Caps Lock LED when pressing Shift 04:59:46 Oh, yum- 04:59:54 How about file systems and disk devices? 05:00:04 ramdisk and ramfs 05:00:16 I write the components as needed 05:00:32 parallel to the OS I write some applications to it 05:00:45 shell, editor (GUI) 05:01:07 Hehe. 05:01:20 A file system and floppy drover would make it alot funnier :P 05:01:37 I dont need a floppy driver for now 05:01:52 everything is running in RAM 05:02:11 I think the ability of running user programs is quite important 05:02:49 it is the goal of an OS 05:02:58 Yes. 05:03:36 and to be friendly to the user everytime *g* 05:04:29 Friendly to the user? Hehe... 05:04:44 I think good documentation is more important ;) 05:04:48 you know Star Trek? the computers there are friendly even if nothing is working 05:05:00 Nope, I'm not a star trek fan :) 05:05:15 but you know it 05:05:29 I know it exists. 05:05:39 --- quit: kemu (Remote closed the connection) 05:05:45 they use their voices to use the computers 05:06:02 That's how most sci fi movies are like ;) 05:06:10 also the answers are spoken by the computers 05:06:45 Yup. 05:06:52 * rob_ert thinks "2001". 05:07:18 'Cannot do this, cannot do that.' *g* 05:09:11 'The Enterprise has been destroyed.' - Scotty: 'Bridge repaired, captain!' 05:10:20 rob_ert: i'm not able to be happy about a GGGOOOOAAAL 05:10:25 ??? 05:10:37 oink: Hehe. 05:10:43 oink: Don't you love #ypn? :) 05:10:52 uhm 05:10:54 :) 05:11:26 lodda: thou shalt not flood in caps. 05:11:44 hmmm 05:11:58 plz -q 05:12:21 i won't be happy anymore :) 05:12:28 oh sorry :( 05:13:26 answer 05:14:17 I doubt you will ever stop trolling. 05:14:53 huh? 05:15:14 there was a goal!?!? 05:16:14 --- nick: ZzZ_enton -> Zenton 05:16:47 hi all 05:17:25 Hi Zenton. 05:18:39 --- join: slime (~slime@h77n2fls32o858.telia.com) joined #osdev 05:18:45 Hej. 05:18:50 tjena 05:26:43 unq me 05:35:52 --- join: jace48 (~jace48@203.195.175.54) joined #osdev 05:42:34 --- quit: jace48 ("Huh?") 06:25:26 --- nick: lodda -> looda_away 06:28:07 --- join: ChillySpy (ChillySpy@ppp375.ppp9.cleveland.nccw.net) joined #osdev 06:31:27 --- join: jace48 (~jace48@203.195.175.54) joined #osdev 06:32:11 --- join: puppy (puppy@roc-66-67-55-246.rochester.rr.com) joined #osdev 06:32:30 damm i guess jgrahm dont want his money 06:34:23 * puppy says do me a favor anyone when u hear from jgrahm tell him i have his money 06:34:43 or tell him to call me 581-2447 06:34:56 or tell him to call me 585-581-2447 06:35:04 ok well g2g 06:35:19 --- quit: puppy (Client Quit) 06:35:24 lol. 06:35:26 what is a far call? 06:35:33 --- join: pavlovskii (pavlovskii@modem-793.ballistic.dialup.pol.co.uk) joined #osdev 06:35:42 pavlovskii:) 06:35:48 afternoon all 06:35:55 ChillySpy: see Intel Docs 06:36:31 oke 06:40:20 --- part: jace48 left #osdev 06:40:30 --- join: jace48 (~jace48@203.195.175.54) joined #osdev 06:43:30 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:59:04 --- join: Jeroen__ (jeroen@kf-nawij-fp06-205.dial.kabelfoon.nl) joined #osdev 06:59:20 --- quit: Jeroen (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: Jeroen__!jeroen@kf-nawij-fp06-205.dial.kabelfoon.nl))) 06:59:28 --- nick: Jeroen__ -> Jeroen 07:03:14 --- nick: looda_away -> lodda 07:03:44 back 07:10:43 --- join: puppy (puppy@roc-66-67-55-246.rochester.rr.com) joined #osdev 07:10:47 hello 07:11:56 --- quit: puppy (Client Quit) 07:21:45 --- quit: jace48 ("Huh?") 07:24:54 --- join: alphakiller (fernando@200191152169-dial-user-UOL.acessonet.com.br) joined #osdev 07:25:02 hello guys 07:25:24 pavlovskii, today happened what I told you 5 days ago 07:34:41 bah 07:34:57 Did you see the Ronaldinho´s goal ??? 07:35:00 not really surprising though 07:35:05 no, I didn't watch i 07:35:05 t 07:35:06 that was beatiful 07:35:13 sorry, gotta go anyway 07:35:19 --- quit: pavlovskii () 07:35:22 k 07:35:56 --- quit: Mathis ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 07:43:08 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 07:43:11 --- quit: alphakiller (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 07:46:04 --- nick: lodda -> lodda_away 07:50:57 --- join: jace48 (~jace48@203.195.175.54) joined #osdev 08:00:56 hah 08:00:57 cpp0: : Value too large for defined data type 08:05:41 Hrm. 08:07:19 n/m, works now 08:10:35 --- part: ChillySpy left #osdev 08:11:18 --- join: yuriz (~yuriz@rcr.teraflops.com) joined #osdev 08:12:10 yuriz :) 08:12:16 rob_ert :) 08:12:21 me :) 08:12:34 what's new here? 08:13:16 New? In #osdev? Hah... 08:14:18 Everthing other than talks about OSDEV 08:14:34 Topic is only old thing here rarely talked about 08:14:40 :P 08:15:43 Did you see the Ronaldinho´s goal ??? 08:15:54 Most important event of today. 08:16:51 rob_ert-> we have newbies here who want on topic talks 08:18:41 Yes, I know. 08:19:03 And if anyone asks a question or starts a discussion, usually someone catches on 08:21:01 Ok so lets 08:21:05 start 08:21:24 Do you know how BE and QNX implements FS in FAT16 and FAT32? 08:21:37 So that no partition has to be created 08:22:05 BE? 08:22:13 BeOS? 08:22:38 Yeah 08:23:13 jace48: do you know about loopback filesystems? 08:23:30 Or, "virtual nodes" in BSD terminology 08:24:12 I just heard 08:24:19 Never read the papers 08:24:53 jace48: if you want to take a look how it's done in "right way", look into the sources of FreeBSD 08:25:05 namely, "vn" device driver 08:25:40 Any papers avaliable 08:25:52 Source becomes some time too complicated 08:26:00 hmm.. every OS implements this feature on its own 08:26:13 it's really very OS-dependent 08:27:48 And in your opinion, FreeBSD has the best implementation? 08:28:17 alphakiller: (via rob_ert) Yes, it was just beautiful 08:28:23 :) 08:28:45 rob_ert: well, I can't say it for sure, but I would use similar methods 08:28:53 :) 08:29:00 for my own kernel, I mean 08:29:04 Do they only have sources, or also documentation? 08:29:05 I deleted the BSD source yesterday 08:29:14 Oh, well... food, bbl. 08:29:17 I guess that I will need to redownload 08:29:40 rob_ert: sources is well-documented (okay, some of them :) 08:29:49 jace48: just install it 08:30:06 Cannot 08:30:11 Out of Disc space 08:30:23 jace48: and use it, if you don't have any special requirements for the hardware drivers ;) 08:30:26 ohh.. 08:30:55 With today's 40G disks, I thought it's impossible ;) 08:30:56 I would love to upgrade to it 08:31:01 But money matters 08:31:15 yuriz-> I have 2.1 GB 08:31:24 With 175 MB free 08:34:11 jace48: where are you from? 08:36:18 India 08:36:21 Far east 08:37:02 land of porr and struggling people 08:37:11 *poor 08:38:56 --- join: indigo (~daboy@bgp01104776bgs.wbrmfd01.mi.comcast.net) joined #osdev 08:39:00 hej 08:39:13 indigo hey 08:44:24 Back. 08:44:26 Hej indigo. 08:45:21 indigo: what city/town are you from? 08:45:45 fuuuck me 08:46:05 uuu seems almost the same as my os idea 08:46:41 trans: Heh. 08:46:42 bbl 08:46:46 bye all 08:47:03 --- quit: jace48 ("Huh?") 08:47:24 trans: do you know what happened with "brilliant UuU idea"? ;) 08:47:47 no 08:48:06 It died! 08:48:21 well, may be not with an idea, but implementation 08:48:30 Implementation died 08:48:40 why? 08:48:43 Idea probably lives in somebody's head 08:49:13 who worked on it, i thought he comes here? 08:49:19 eks :) 08:49:28 oh right 08:49:30 And indigo. 08:50:01 rob_ert: isn't Indigo from Sweden? 08:50:26 Nope. 08:50:31 From the states, iirc. 08:50:32 trans: look at uuu.sf.net for the explantation 08:50:39 rob_ert: ahh.. 08:50:48 --- join: Mathis (Mathis@gstw-d9b89f07.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #osdev 08:50:49 i love all their names for cells though 08:50:59 rob_ert: I thought we could organize @-party ;) 08:51:01 re 08:51:22 ? 08:51:25 @-party? 08:51:30 wb Mathis :) 08:52:01 rob_ert: yep.. but he doesn't live in .se, only two people will attend :) 08:52:10 my Atari ST doesnt work... 08:54:03 --- quit: |\| (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:54:15 --- join: kemu (~Jonas@adsl-63865.turboline.skynet.be) joined #osdev 08:54:19 Mathis: :( 08:54:24 yuriz: ;) 08:54:36 yuriz: Don't you know any other Stockholm coders? 08:54:45 no :( 08:54:51 :( 08:54:55 would love to meet them 08:55:02 * rob_ert too. 08:55:23 I've talked to a few people here who said thy live close to stockholm. 08:55:23 (esp. those who work on their own kernels) 08:55:28 Can't remember who. 08:55:30 Heh. 08:55:47 Count me out of that group :P You can't call my projects real kernels. 08:56:08 rob_ert: you're an exception 08:56:09 :) 08:56:22 Hehe. 08:56:31 I'm the only loser you'd like to meet? ;) 08:56:43 * oink wonders [..] 08:56:46 rob_ert: you man have a great future 08:56:54 yup (: 08:57:11 --- quit: dax (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 08:57:33 Heh... I sure hope so, but atm it doesn't look bright. 08:58:28 let's meet and talk about it then 08:58:31 not here :) 08:58:40 --- quit: kemu (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08:59:07 Hehe. 09:00:16 I remember seeing a I/O port reference somewhere on the internet 09:00:22 Anyone know where it is? 09:01:15 gpf: ralf brown might help 09:01:25 yuriz: OK, thanks 09:02:30 gpf: ModularOS? ;) 09:02:47 yep 09:48:38 --- join: puppy (puppy@roc-66-67-55-246.rochester.rr.com) joined #osdev 09:48:48 damm still no jgrahm 09:53:13 --- part: puppy left #osdev 10:05:47 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 10:22:39 --- quit: Javanx ("I don't feel a thing, and i stopped remembering. The days are just like moments tourned to hours") 10:51:04 --- quit: oink ("brb") 10:54:27 --- join: gedamo (gdm@gedamo.demon.co.uk) joined #osdev 11:02:44 --- join: Zn4k (zinac@cs243169-153.jam.rr.com) joined #osdev 11:02:47 --- part: Zn4k left #osdev 11:03:19 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 11:03:37 --- join: oink (~ziga@void.phear.org) joined #osdev 11:03:53 --- join: oink_ (~ziga@void.phear.org) joined #osdev 11:04:07 --- quit: oink_ (Client Quit) 11:04:11 oink! 11:04:21 grmbl 11:04:57 fsztrklpghjkl! 11:05:08 @!$!@#!@! 11:05:21 Right 11:06:00 hey rob :) 11:06:39 (Homer): Are you saying you're never going to eat any animal again? What about 11:06:39 bacon? 11:06:39 (Lisa): No. 11:06:39 (Homer): Ham? 11:06:39 (Lisa): No! 11:06:39 (Homer): Pork chops? 11:06:40 :) 11:06:41 (Lisa): Dad! Those all come from the same animal! 11:06:43 (Homer): Heh heh heh ... ooh ... yeah right, Lisa. A wonderful ... magical animal. 11:07:04 They come from oink. 11:07:08 :\ 11:07:11 Lisa won't eat oink. Lisa is good. 11:07:16 mmmmmmh, donut.... 11:07:17 --- join: kemu (~nospam@adsl-64582.turboline.skynet.be) joined #osdev 11:07:18 Homer is evil. 11:07:23 kemu is also evil. 11:07:30 Lisa had sex with me, she doesn't want to say it to her father. 11:07:33 yipiiih! doh! 11:07:41 hehe 11:07:44 oink: I think Lisa is 8 11:07:45 fun talk :) 11:07:53 * oink wonders.. 11:07:59 she was 8 in 1985 :D 11:08:00 rob_ert some people prefere kids 11:08:17 she's 25 now. 11:08:30 oink but still looks 8 11:08:46 bha! 11:21:13 --- nick: geist-sleep -> geist 11:21:52 morning geist 11:24:13 morn 11:31:52 --- quit: air ("reboot") 11:58:59 --- join: air (brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #osdev 12:08:57 --- quit: gedamo ("Leaving") 12:11:26 --- join: |\| (LESLES@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #osdev 12:16:18 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 12:19:39 back 12:20:37 anyone know what chipset d-link nics use? 12:21:55 Lisa is a vegetarian 12:22:07 she couldn´t have sex with oink 12:22:12 he's a pig 12:22:24 :) 12:24:58 heh 12:25:20 heh 12:25:45 * oink *scratch* *scratch* 12:25:48 btw 12:25:54 air: many differents one :D 12:26:18 saw that last time, when googling for some D-Link. 12:26:44 <|\|> wow 12:26:50 <|\|> lilo is begging again 12:26:55 oink: u got any dlink nics? 12:27:03 nop 12:27:10 only 3Com & RTL. 12:27:24 linux kernel docs say the 538 and 690 use realtek 12:27:36 well 12:27:59 the only card this place has is the 530 12:28:08 grep -i ethernet /proc/pci 12:28:09 but i need it to work in linux and beos 12:28:15 ? :| 12:28:21 <|\|> air: the dlink uses the RTL 12:28:22 i dont own the card yet 12:28:30 ha 12:28:56 |\|: how do u know? 12:28:59 <|\|> i own one 12:29:04 the 530? 12:29:07 1, only one :D 12:29:13 oink: :) 12:30:50 <|\|> so who here is going to help lilo out? 12:30:53 DE-530 ? 12:30:58 --- join: eks (~eks@24.70.176.227) joined #osdev 12:31:28 ok, it uses the 8139A 12:31:47 8139too then 12:32:18 I have a 8139B and 8139C working fine here fyi. 12:32:31 <|\|> heh 12:32:35 <|\|> i was at Best Buy yesterday 12:32:39 --- quit: Mathis ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 12:32:40 <|\|> a big electronics store 12:32:42 <|\|> and i heard them play 12:32:45 <|\|> "Faith of the Heart" 12:32:50 ?:) 12:32:50 <|\|> same song air sent me once 12:32:52 oink: u got beos there? 12:32:54 <|\|> it was kind of funny 12:33:00 air: Linux and NetBSD only :\ 12:33:12 <|\|> i was looking at games and immediately i thought of air getting his enema 12:33:29 8139* are supported by many OSes though 12:33:40 <|\|> cuz that was the song he listened to for inspiration during that time ;/ 12:33:58 heh 12:37:31 --- join: SLACKo (~SLACKo@65.199.128.214) joined #osdev 12:37:49 pfff 12:37:56 * oink kicks XF86 developpers.. 12:38:11 0x404c79ac : mov %edx,(%eax) 12:38:12 eax 0x0 0 12:38:12 Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 0x404c79ac in 12:38:12 tdfxInitGlide () from /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/dri/tdfx_dri.so 12:38:58 that's what happens when guys commit work without testing it :\ 12:40:43 --- quit: yuriz ("Plan. 9.") 12:47:16 watchin tv again 12:48:50 --- quit: eks ("bbiab") 12:51:10 one bad fucking thing just happend 12:51:59 <|\|> ? 12:52:23 my girl has my mobile phone and she has got a msg from a other girl I don't know that it's been a long time since I slep with her and I don't funcking know that girl 12:52:49 fucking hate mobile phones 12:52:56 --- join: phlamer (phlamer@dialup-64.157.65.209.Dial1.Weehawken1.Level3.net) joined #osdev 12:53:23 anyone alive? 12:53:59 <|\|> kemu: well 12:54:02 <|\|> kemu: just dump your girl 12:54:12 <|\|> you can find another one 12:54:23 uhm |\| I love her been together for over one year 12:54:36 <|\|> nah, girls are a dime a dozen :) 12:54:46 you don't get it 12:55:01 <|\|> you think you love one, but you can always find another just as good 12:55:33 I don't want to trow away all those things we had together just for something I never did 12:55:37 it's not fair 12:57:54 <|\|> is she pretty? 12:59:37 --- join: kupak (~vacsda@195.228.89.33) joined #osdev 12:59:40 hi 13:00:36 yeah she is 13:01:30 --- join: Raptor-32 (~rick@stpras01-p95.mts.net) joined #osdev 13:02:52 anyone know if there exists a kpresenter to powerpoint converter? 13:03:20 <|\|> kemu: take nude pics of her, and put the on the internet, use them to blackmail her 13:06:14 <|\|> heh, i think kemu wants to kill me now 13:08:54 any expert win32 coders ? 13:09:11 <|\|> i know a bit about win32 13:09:15 |\|: we all know that u have never had a girl 13:09:26 so 13:09:26 <|\|> air: and you have? 13:09:39 and the only girls u ever get will be rentals 13:09:40 i havet to make an app that will lock a workstation 13:09:54 <|\|> mr. "my face was melted in a french fry vat" 13:09:56 <|\|> heh 13:10:01 it will be used in netcafes 13:10:52 <|\|> kupak: neat 13:10:54 i wonder if i can do this 13:10:58 <|\|> kupak: aren't there some already out there? 13:11:07 it will be special 13:11:09 <|\|> and Win2000/WinXP come with it already.. 13:11:17 coz you have to pay by sms 13:11:21 <|\|> what Windows version is it for? 13:11:24 and i have to make a server to 13:12:15 that client will unlock when ther server gets the request 13:12:58 |\| win nt 4.0 13:13:21 <|\|> ah ok 13:13:38 phlamer: Hello there. 13:13:52 so the user hast to type in a password to unlock the workstation 13:15:56 good kupak shitup about sms I hate that 13:16:08 whats the name of that redhat program that add/removes rc?.d/ services? 13:16:11 back again 13:16:31 air rpm ? 13:16:36 --- nick: lodda_away -> lodda 13:16:39 software installer ? 13:16:40 kemu: no 13:17:03 the rc?.d dirs contain symlinks to init.d files 13:17:18 for the services that will be started/stopped in each runlevel 13:32:24 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 13:36:05 --- join: crg (~crg@server.sisk.reset.net.pl) joined #osdev 13:38:14 --- quit: crg (Client Quit) 13:38:42 --- join: ckm|away (~localhost@pc-62-30-121-110-cr.blueyonder.co.uk) joined #osdev 14:01:38 hmm 14:01:53 my NAT was working just fine until i rebooted 14:02:01 what would cause NAT to stop working? 14:02:18 lan hosts can talk to this machine but they arent being forwarded 14:06:21 --- quit: ckm|away (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 14:06:21 --- quit: trans (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 14:06:21 --- quit: Raptor-32 (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 14:06:21 --- quit: phlamer (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 14:06:21 --- quit: air (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 14:06:21 --- quit: kemu (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 14:06:21 --- quit: tirloni (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 14:06:23 --- join: air (~brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #osdev 14:06:26 --- join: Zn4k (zinac@cs243169-153.jam.rr.com) joined #osdev 14:06:26 --- join: Raptor-32 (~rick@stpras01-p95.mts.net) joined #osdev 14:07:17 --- join: kemu (~nospam@adsl-64582.turboline.skynet.be) joined #osdev 14:07:34 --- join: ckm|away (~localhost@pc-62-30-121-110-cr.blueyonder.co.uk) joined #osdev 14:14:10 --- join: tenzin (xtofu@p217-tnt2.mel.ihug.com.au) joined #osdev 14:15:59 --- join: phlamer (phlamer@dialup-64.157.65.209.Dial1.Weehawken1.Level3.net) joined #osdev 14:16:16 wb :) 14:16:21 thanks =) 14:19:02 morning rob_ert phlamer. 14:19:28 * |\| disconnects rob_ert's p200 14:21:46 --- quit: |\| (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:22:55 Heh. 14:23:52 /nick /|/ 14:23:57 bah, doesn't work :( 14:24:17 haha 14:33:43 damn, lilo got $12000 from his begging 14:35:11 Isn't that what he _wants_? 14:35:23 "Current status is about $11,845 from the goal of raising $12,000." 14:35:36 That would mean he has got about $155 :) 14:35:46 that is close enuf 14:37:10 $12000.. bootloader.. huh? 14:37:40 lilo is the admin for OPN 14:37:59 he has been spamming us for donations cuz he is unemployed 14:39:54 oh.. what a bum 14:41:00 right 14:41:29 I'm slightly more tolerant of his bumming because he's running the irc servers 14:41:34 which I do use 14:41:51 he is running them, he doesnt own them 14:41:52 but in general it's a good sign of what happens when your life == irc 14:42:13 i never got no money from having a life of irc 14:42:20 correct 14:42:27 * tenzin goes to write a beggerbot 14:42:37 what I mean is having no job and being a bum is what happens when irc == life 14:42:51 beggarbot /nick katie18f 14:43:08 what if you find a job on irc? :) 14:43:13 i did! 14:43:40 back 14:43:41 hey guys...sorry to interrupt ur excellent convo, but does anyone have a link to a good pmode tutorial? 14:43:43 :) 14:43:53 cuz the ones ive read were either too vague or too complicated for me to understand 14:44:48 Uhm. 14:44:51 I know a good one. 14:44:55 The one I learnt from. 14:45:32 could i get the link? 14:46:23 Maybe, if I find it. 14:46:36 okay 14:46:37 thanks 14:50:09 http://www.nondot.org/sabre/os/files/ProtectedMode/PMTUT.txt 14:50:13 here's my little two cents as you go into the world of x86 pmode: 14:50:19 thanks. 14:50:19 forget the segment stuff as much as you can 14:50:25 okay. 14:50:29 hehe 14:50:34 everyon gets so confused by that stuff 14:50:37 same with TSS 14:50:38 im just starting to get the hang of it a bit 14:50:44 i was confused by it in real mode 14:50:51 but it seems to make a bit more sense now 14:50:53 you have to use both of them, but use them as little as possible 14:51:13 i see 14:53:12 have to go 14:53:18 geist: I will need a few TSSs to enable I/O protection, right? 14:53:23 Bye, lodda. 14:54:15 --- part: lodda left #osdev 14:54:38 rob_ert: you need one per cpu if you use multiple priviledge levels 14:55:04 I with with one-processor systems :) 14:55:11 So, do I only need one then? 14:55:20 If I want one kernel level and one user level. 14:55:20 and then only to store the stack segment and stack pointer it should switch to if it gets a cross-privledge interrupt 14:55:33 just one 14:56:15 :) 14:57:27 --- join: df (~yakumo@host217-35-58-43.in-addr.btopenworld.com) joined #osdev 14:57:28 --- quit: kupak (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:59:06 --- join: lodda (lodda@p508FCF3A.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 14:59:29 rob_ert: did u kick me? 14:59:38 No, I think svara did. 14:59:52 could u unban me? 15:00:09 or do u think like svara? 15:00:43 We all think, "God, that guy is really annoying." 15:02:11 thanks 15:02:55 --- join: ctkrohn (~ctkrohn@ip68-100-176-44.nv.nv.cox.net) joined #osdev 15:03:32 ok i have to go again 15:04:05 and i won't join ypn anymore, this channel is a channel for perverts and dumbs 15:04:49 whats a ypn when its written in english? 15:04:52 hello, are there any simple "teaching" OS's out there which would be good for me, a relative newbie to look over? I've looked over GazOS, but it doesn't have any features like binary loading, task switching, etc. Is there anything you might recommend? 15:05:11 ctkrohn : Uuu ;) 15:05:11 ypn is a channel 15:05:30 eduos 15:05:41 Raptor-32: In C :) 15:05:50 ctkrohn : gah, C is for wimps. :P 15:05:56 and sane people 15:05:58 young programmers channel, good night 15:06:24 ctkrohn: Check GeekOS. 15:06:29 hrm, OK 15:06:39 I just saw it the other day, seems to have quite a few features. 15:06:40 bah, assembly is king! 15:06:43 heh 15:06:44 (I would just by Tanenbaum but its $80, a bit more expensive) 15:06:46 It's C++, though. *yuck* 15:06:52 hmm 15:07:02 I don't mind C++ 15:07:08 YOu need C when programming an good os ;) because millions of lines of Assembly code is kinda harder to manage 15:07:11 though I thought there were portability issues... 15:07:28 --- quit: lodda () 15:08:10 hrm, GeekOS looks rather interesting 15:08:20 >:) 15:08:45 GazOS is like an orc construction in WarCraft II. 15:08:55 Barley able to stay in one piece :P 15:09:02 Might fall apart if you touch it. 15:09:14 heh 15:09:27 its filesystem is rather underwhelming. 15:10:14 hrm, I think I'll have to take a look at this 15:10:19 you can take a look at my project if you want. http://newos.sf.net/ 15:10:27 it may or may not be useful 15:10:35 but it does a lot of what you want to see done 15:10:40 geist is always useful :) 15:10:42 I actually tried to download NewOS a while back 15:10:46 but it couldn't build. 15:10:57 I think I'll check out the latest NewOS soon 15:10:59 probably the size_t thing I'm sure 15:11:03 geist : whats with the crappy name though? i mean, geezus, when i read about it on osnews i automatically thought "geez, that os has got to suck" 15:11:20 Raptor-32: thanks! 15:11:21 and NewOS seems more mature than GeekOS 15:11:34 Heh. 15:11:44 geist : im not saying your OS sucks, im saying its name sends out that message. 15:11:55 * geist isn't that concerned with what narrow minded people think 15:11:56 Raptor-32: People will know better soon :P 15:12:10 isn't one of those BeOS clones based on NewOS? 15:12:15 yup 15:12:22 rob_ert : well, i know better NOW, but when i first read about it i thought "HACK!!!" 15:12:30 Actually, CP/M doesn't sound good either, since CP is used as an insult here. 15:12:41 but I agree, the name is kind of lame 15:12:45 too late to change it though 15:13:01 I never intended to keep working on it that long 15:13:25 I forgot what it was called before, but I had an older one in my source repository and I started over and called it newos 15:13:53 --- join: Zn4k2 (zinac@cs243169-153.jam.rr.com) joined #osdev 15:13:54 Hehe, 15:13:55 --- quit: Zn4k (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 15:13:57 --- part: Zn4k2 left #osdev 15:14:03 And now you're famous :) Congratulations. 15:14:16 yeah, I just tried compiling the latest source snapshot... I get that size_t error 15:14:26 "lib/libc/hoard/arch-specific.h:82: `operator new' takes type `size_t' as first parameter" 15:15:00 Operator new? Is this C++? 15:15:05 Or am I completley lost? 15:16:48 dunno, I didn't write it :) 15:17:58 hey...when switching to pmode would i still have to enable the a20 line or is that just to be able to access upto 16mb in real mode? 15:18:12 phlamer : you still need to enable it AFAIK 15:18:22 AFAIK? 15:18:34 as far as i know 15:18:37 hehe 15:18:39 okay 15:18:46 thanks. 15:18:50 any idea why? 15:19:01 cause the x86 sucks, good enough reason? 15:19:07 haha okay 15:19:08 sounds good 15:19:27 ctkrohn: easy to fix 15:19:32 I'm probably going to fix that for good tonight 15:19:37 it's a gcc versioning problem 15:19:51 some versions of gcc *require* that size_t be typedefed to unsigned int 15:19:56 others *require* that it be unsigned long 15:20:07 and it gives you that non-error if it's the other way 15:20:16 so it depends on the os/gcc version you're building on 15:20:25 so to fix, edit include/newos/types.h 15:20:33 ok 15:20:40 and change the typedef on size_t and ssize_t to be the opposite of what it is now 15:20:46 if it's unsigned int, change to unsigned long 15:20:59 I think I'll fix it once and for all tonight and put a piece of detection code in the make system 15:21:07 which I've been avoiding as much as possible 15:21:18 hrm, it appears to be unsigned long already 15:21:27 change it to usigned int then 15:21:32 you're building on linux, right? 15:21:36 gcc 2.96? 15:21:55 I think all linux toolchains require that it be unsigned int 15:22:04 it's a bug in gcc as far as I'm concerned 15:22:10 yes, linux 15:22:12 gcc2.95 15:22:28 the other fix I'm going to do is patch gcc and binutils to include a new target 'i386-newos' 15:22:36 and eventually require that you use that 15:22:49 I'll prebuild a bunch of toolchains 15:31:06 --- quit: df ("syntax: ja matte ne") 15:31:39 --- join: Javanx (~javanx@213.45.18.78) joined #osdev 15:33:35 another question for whoevers around...if i write a quick piece of code using djgpp (dont have access to a linux box), can i just jump to it from my bootstrap? 15:33:42 or will this code need to be run in pmode? 15:34:32 uhm 15:34:40 well its a dos pe executable im guessing 15:34:40 --- join: eks (~eks@h24-82-197-140.wp.shawcable.net) joined #osdev 15:35:09 hey guys :) 15:35:15 iirc djgpp does some straneg stuff like manage pmode itself 15:35:49 i personally stay away from it, mingw32 (the windows port) is probably better, or the linux gcc is good too 15:35:59 geist: got it built, thanks 15:36:12 the exception being, that the code is 32-bit and must be run once pmode is active, and the executable headers need to be parsed 15:36:36 ive never done osdev in windows though, so djgpp may be still used, im not sure 15:36:59 i see 15:37:04 any way to make it output 16bit code? 15:37:06 without any headers 15:37:07 ? 15:37:11 uhm, yes 15:37:17 i think gcc has some switches for that right? 15:37:22 i think some compilers like watcom and borland can do that 15:37:28 with their small/tiny memory models 15:37:33 i see. 15:37:34 no, gcc is a 32-bit compiler 15:37:43 okay. 15:37:46 to be honist, i prefer writing 16-bit code using nasm 15:37:51 i see. 15:38:02 im just trying to learn a little bit about this basic stuff b4 i go into p-mode 15:38:09 so i have a simple bootloader written in nasm 15:38:16 and if its a boot sector your writing, it has to be asm anyway 15:38:17 and i wanted to write a quick hello world in C and load that 15:38:21 it is asm 15:38:23 although it can jump to c code 15:38:24 but the 2nd sector 15:38:26 hmm 15:38:26 can be C right 15:38:29 yes 15:38:31 okay 15:38:35 so i have it set to load the sector 15:38:38 (which is currently in asm) 15:38:42 infact, why dont you write 32-bit code and use your 1st sector to set pmode? 15:38:44 i wanted to see if i could write it in C 15:38:53 i dunno how to do pmode yet 15:38:54 ah 15:38:55 eventually, yes 15:38:55 hehe 15:39:01 just wanted to do some quick C stuff in real mode? 15:39:04 not possible? 15:39:12 corsair: not here, eh? :) 15:39:14 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 15:39:14 i find it easier to do it in asm, but its very possible 15:39:19 rob_ert: im corsairk8 ;) 15:39:27 Yes, I know. 15:39:28 i see... 15:39:32 I was talking to you. 15:39:32 so what compiler would u suggest? 15:39:43 * ckm|away thinks 15:39:46 ckm|away <-- suggests that you are away. 15:39:52 as i said, i havent done osdev in windows often 15:40:04 i see. 15:40:11 okay, so would i be able to do it using gcc? 15:40:15 but from what ive read, the boraldn compilers can do it 15:40:26 if i was using linux? 15:40:28 you might be able to, but as i said, djgpp does some wierd 32-bit dpmi stuff 15:40:31 and you may not want that 15:40:44 gcc doesnt right? 15:40:49 * ckm|away thinks 15:40:52 heh 15:41:09 well, gcc could produce 16-bit code but i dont think that would work well with elf 15:41:14 but there are flags to produce raw binaries in gcc 15:41:25 come to think of it, djgpp would probably be able to do it too 15:41:31 im not sure, yourll have to read up on it 15:41:48 okay 15:41:51 thanks. 15:41:59 np 15:42:06 Uh. 15:42:11 Can gcc make 16-bit code? 15:42:15 yes rob_ert 15:42:17 I though you had to use bcc for that. 15:42:24 poor 16-bit code but it can :) 15:42:24 Or any other 16-bit compiler. 15:42:29 Hrm, how? 15:42:30 hmm 15:42:35 1 sc 15:42:51 --- quit: Raptor-32 ("BitchX: TASTES GREAT! LESS FILLING! TASTES GREAT! LESS FILLING!") 15:43:06 so there is no such thing as 32-bit real mode code? 15:43:15 wow DJGPP can output elf binaries now 15:43:22 yes there is phlamer 15:43:23 phlamer: Real mode IS 16-bit mode. 15:43:26 not true rob_ert 15:43:27 hmm. 15:43:31 phlamer: Protected mode IS 32-bit mode. 15:43:37 you can use 32-bit instructions for real mode 15:43:38 hmmm 15:43:41 haha 15:43:52 They usually conflict. 15:43:54 i can access 32bit registers as well 15:44:11 0x91 does xchg eax,ecx in pmode. and xchg ax,cx in real mode. 15:44:22 ckm|away: Tell me any. 15:44:23 http://www.mega-tokyo.com/os/os-faq-kernel.html#load_kernel 15:44:28 i see. 15:44:45 hmm, alright, your right rob_ert 15:45:07 "DJGPP outputs 32bit protected mode code" 15:45:16 okay so hmm. 15:45:25 in other words, dont try to make gcc output 16-bit code it will never do it 15:45:26 if i just do gcc file.c 15:45:30 do i need to link it too? 15:45:34 using turbo c or that bcc compiler may work 15:45:36 by running ld? 15:45:42 gcc file.c -o file 15:45:45 or does pure object code run 15:45:47 ? 15:45:48 gcc file.c -o file.exe will like automatically 15:45:51 That will link it for toy. 15:45:53 you* 15:45:54 gcc file.c will produce file.o 15:45:54 Oh 15:45:57 You're using Windows? 15:46:00 Ah, right. 15:46:02 suppose im using linux 15:46:10 if its linux, omit the .exe :) 15:46:10 and then i can just write the object file to the sector? 15:46:15 and its executable code? 15:46:19 hmm 15:46:23 to the sector? 15:46:28 on the disk 15:46:35 write it to sector 2 15:46:37 i dont have a fs set up 15:46:42 you can place it anywhere on the disk, or on your file system as long as your boot sector can find it and load it into memory 15:46:45 so im just reading it off of the 2nd sector manually with the bs 15:46:50 right. 15:46:53 i see. 15:46:57 cuz in that link 15:47:00 they use ld to link 15:47:03 heh 15:47:11 LD my_kernel.o -o kernel.bin -oformat binary -Ttext 0x100000 15:47:14 not necessary? 15:47:16 hmm, i know 15:47:19 you have to do that 15:47:22 oh. 15:47:23 so u do? 15:47:24 because .o files arent executable 15:47:28 thats what i was asking 15:47:32 i thought u said they were 15:47:33 okay 15:47:41 wait 15:47:44 * ckm|away is getting sleepy 15:47:49 the -c option means compile into an object file 15:47:50 okay...so i dont get the -Ttext 0x100000 part 15:47:52 right. 15:48:01 so then i link to a flat binary file 15:48:04 why do i need the -T thing? 15:48:10 gcc file.c -o file.exe -Ttext 0x100000 -oformat binary would work 15:48:23 oh right, well, remember that gcc is producing a 32-bit file 15:48:31 okay. 15:48:38 that -Ttext means it will expect the text to be loaded at the address 0x100000 15:48:49 text? 15:48:53 meaning the data? 15:48:56 text == machien code instructions (data is of course variables/stuff) 15:48:58 --- join: puppy (puppy@roc-66-67-55-246.rochester.rr.com) joined #osdev 15:49:06 data comes after text 15:49:09 damm no jgrahm still 15:49:15 oh i see. 15:49:16 but it just means, all the jumps will expect the binary to be loaded at that address 15:49:21 so text = code 15:49:23 ? 15:49:27 so you MUST get your boot loader to write teh file exactly 1mb into memory 15:49:30 exactly 15:49:32 why must i specify where everything is loaded? 15:49:32 text = code 15:49:36 data = variables 15:49:37 it cant be relative? 15:49:38 rodata = const 15:49:42 to the original loading spot 15:49:47 why must it know ahead of time? 15:49:47 hmm? 15:49:53 where it will be 15:49:56 because it hardwires the jumps 15:50:06 gcc can produce PIC code (position independant code) 15:50:07 but its slower 15:50:09 hmmmm 15:50:12 okay i see. 15:50:17 but in app. programming 15:50:28 u obviously dont staticly link like that right? 15:50:32 well, what most binary formats do is hardware jumps in a non-pic way 15:50:37 no way to know ahead of time where u will be loaded 15:50:52 and if you use dynamic linkage and some code is expected to be loaded somewhere but it cant be, then each of the jumps are relocated via a relocation table 15:51:02 i see. 15:51:02 so for now 15:51:05 static linkage 15:51:08 hmm 15:51:12 hey where the hell has jgrahm been ? 15:51:16 i can put things up closer than the 1meg mark cant i? 15:51:20 like right after the boot sector 15:51:24 no 15:51:26 say 0x7e00 15:51:27 it needs to be at 1mb 15:51:27 no? 15:51:30 how come 15:51:39 you could always change -Ttext to 0x10000 15:51:40 if you want 15:52:01 right. 15:52:05 or wherever 15:52:07 change it to -Ttext 0x7e00 15:52:15 yup 15:52:20 cuz in real mode, u cant even see > 1 MB right? 15:52:23 w/o enabling a20 15:52:26 and i havent done that 15:52:29 yeh, but thats usually done early 15:52:34 yeah 15:52:36 but i dont have it done yet 15:52:37 haha 15:52:42 since yourll need to init pmode you might as well enable a20 15:52:42 :) 15:52:50 right 15:52:51 eventually 15:52:53 ill do pmode 15:52:58 im just kinda slow at this stuff 15:53:07 took me long enough to get a simple hello world thing going 15:53:13 :) 15:53:20 hello world was quite easy for me... 15:53:29 oh but i have a double hello world =) 15:53:30 one of the first things i wrote in asm was a hello world boot sector hehe 15:53:32 once from the first sector 15:53:34 and once from the 2nd 15:53:37 now i have super omikron :) 15:53:39 thats what i wrote 15:53:43 but im still too dumb to write my own boot sector 15:53:46 2 hello worlds in one! 15:53:51 haha 15:54:06 ultimately id like to write something like grub, an intellegent boot loader that can load multiple os's, parse parameters to my os, etc... 15:54:14 --- part: puppy left #osdev 15:54:16 and be able to understand multiple file systems 15:54:17 yeah. 15:54:20 thatd be quite intelligent 15:54:26 haha 15:54:29 its pretty close to what grub can do :) 15:54:34 well, im nowhere near that stage at this point 15:54:39 me either 15:54:44 so one last thing 15:54:51 when i do the gcc compiling/linking 15:54:52 to be honist, i think its funner working on your actual pmode os first 15:54:54 realmode is boring 15:54:55 that still outputs 32bit code actually? 15:55:01 yes it does 15:55:05 im just trying to use a little C..and then ill try pmode 15:55:07 if you want 16-bit code yourll need to go for another compiler 15:55:07 so 15:55:13 i cant jump to it? 15:55:14 try the dos port of bcc 15:55:17 from the bootsector? 15:55:22 without first going into pmode 15:55:22 ? 15:55:23 not without setting pmode up and stuff 15:55:25 gotcha 15:55:26 okay 15:55:28 pmode it is 15:55:28 haha 15:55:32 ill try and work on it. 15:55:35 thanks for ur help 15:55:45 in that case, if yourve loaded all that why not just load your kernel binary instead of a stage2 loader? 15:55:57 yeah. 15:55:59 hello world part 2 15:56:02 is my kernel binary 15:56:02 haha 15:56:08 <-- is a complete newbie =) 15:56:31 heheh 15:56:45 i suggest if your new to this to get soemthing like grub 15:56:54 its nice and configurable, all you need to do is support the multiboot standard 15:56:56 i just wanna mess around with this for a bit. 15:56:59 alright 15:57:02 learn a little asm 15:57:04 cuz i dont know much 15:57:09 * ckm|away still has his b0rked boot loader 15:57:25 yeah, dont fall into the same trap that catches about 75% of the os newbies 15:57:28 imo, theres nothing more painful than writing 16-bit realmode code that has to take up less than 512 bytes 15:57:37 they all think the first thing they should do is write a bootloader 15:57:37 exactly geist 15:57:46 take one that already exist and get going 15:57:59 all the know how that you pick up when writing a bootloader is largely useless anywhere else 15:58:00 haha. 15:58:08 yeah, i guess thats true 15:58:12 i agree 15:58:17 im just learning some simple asm stuff while im at it though 15:58:17 but its still a good idea to write one 15:58:20 so it isnt a complete waste 15:58:24 I even did that 15:58:26 most os's ive seen dont need their own boot loader 15:58:26 like mov, push, pop 15:58:27 haha 15:58:31 they work fine with grub or lilo 15:58:33 I stole the bootloader from openblt and went with it 15:58:48 since then it's changed enough that it's pretty far from the original 15:58:52 but it's basically the same loader 15:58:56 once your os gets sophisticated enough, you may wanna write your own to do your own fancy stuff like module loading/detection, or whatever 15:59:04 right 15:59:11 or do a multi-stage thing 15:59:12 right...well thats not gonna happen anytime soon. 15:59:14 then again even grub allows that 15:59:26 i think a run-of-the-mill loader is fine for now anyway 15:59:26 like i said, my kernel prints hello world 15:59:27 haha 15:59:47 okay guys, well thanks for ur help 15:59:49 im gonna go now. 15:59:51 later 16:00:07 Bye, 16:00:11 --- quit: phlamer () 16:00:18 --- quit: kemu () 16:01:48 im having an interesting thought 16:01:54 rob_ert, im wondering 16:02:30 assuming a hypothetical situation exists, such that a male and a female are going out and the male says something like "you are a bitch whore" and the female gets pissed off 16:02:44 do you think the said female would be very angry? 16:03:17 is this really hypotehetical? 16:03:25 uhm, kinda :) 16:03:28 does it really matter? 16:03:41 tell us the goss, hey? 16:03:46 ps, it was "bitchy" not "bitch" 16:03:48 lol! 16:04:00 alright it raelly is hypothetical 16:04:19 im just trying to gain a better understanding of girls (for some strange reason) 16:04:36 oh.. bitchy whore isn't insulting enough.. if you'd said "bitch whore" she'd be offended, but eventually love you more. 16:04:43 lol 16:04:57 what would you classify as the worst possible insult for a girl? 16:05:24 it depends on her own individual soft spot 16:05:37 i see 16:06:11 do you think girls like guys who are cocky and in their face trying to get noticed all the time, or the opposite of that? 16:06:28 depends on the girl again 16:06:32 ah 16:06:38 but if you can pull of being cocky, do it. 16:06:51 do you think girls are from venus? 16:06:53 lol 16:06:59 Do _you_? 16:07:06 haha 16:07:09 what would you classify as the worst possible insult for a girl? 16:07:10 ... 16:07:14 could someone give me an example of being cocky 16:07:15 * rob_ert spits at that comment. 16:07:17 im not very good at it 16:07:23 lol rob_ert 16:07:23 why? 16:07:42 well you have to be cocky on the inside too 16:07:59 first imagine yourself to be always right and knowing more than everyone else 16:08:02 lol 16:08:05 and everyone else is lower than you 16:08:07 ckm|away: If you can't even understand that... 16:08:08 thats not too hard 16:08:19 shut up little rob_ert, someone with knowledge is talking 16:08:31 if only everyone could be as intellegent as me, hehe, we wuold have some good os's 16:08:33 and start telling people how to do things, like how to be cocky.. because you know everything. 16:08:35 is that a good example of it? 16:08:52 hmm 16:08:58 You are just being yourself. 16:09:03 lol, no im not! 16:09:11 that was cocky, admit it! 16:09:20 and dont laugh. and dont let anyone else laugh. 16:09:29 i see 16:09:34 * ckm|away doesnt himself wanna be cocky 16:09:41 ah 16:09:55 im curios as to the nature of the work kinky... 16:09:58 i gotta eat 16:10:05 kinky.. 16:10:06 ah, you sure? 16:10:08 hmm. 16:10:11 i might eat first 16:10:19 :( 16:10:22 alright go ahead 16:10:26 rob_ert: you really think im cocky? 16:10:48 * ckm|away cant beleive what hes hearing 16:11:14 ckm|away: bah, let them talk, we both know you are the best ;) 16:11:29 hehe 16:11:41 * ckm|away knows sarcasm when he sees it 16:11:47 eheh 16:11:53 * ckm|away or hears it 16:12:11 * ckm|away or reads it 16:12:41 is anyone here? 16:12:45 i really need more help 16:13:09 push 1 16:13:10 push 'm' 16:13:13 push 'f' 16:13:16 push 't' 16:13:20 push 'r' 16:13:26 label: 16:13:28 pop eax 16:13:30 dec eax 16:13:30 If you have any more stupid questions, save them to /dev/null. 16:13:32 jnz label 16:13:36 cli 16:14:13 lol 16:14:18 hey rob_ert, could i ask you something? 16:14:32 Depends. 16:14:46 If you want to know "how girls are", consult eks or /dev/null. 16:14:51 lol 16:14:52 okay 16:14:55 Otherwise, just ask. 16:15:09 huh.... /me wonders how he is supposed to know how girls are.. 16:15:14 hey eks, im wondering, where is it exactly girls like to go on dates? 16:15:17 hah 16:15:26 :( 16:15:41 dont tell me the intellegent eks doesnt know much about how girls are... 16:16:05 ckm|away: they like to go shopping, at least most of them, but that's not very healthy for your wallet.. 16:16:06 (then again, the smartest minds of our time probably dont know how girls are) 16:16:12 lol 16:16:28 shopping on a date? 16:16:32 surely you cant be serios 16:16:32 "Forget" your wallet at home. 16:16:35 haha 16:16:37 Serious* 16:16:46 rob_ert: rotfl, not suggested either :P 16:16:57 depends if im broke, then i might *accedentally* forget my wallet and make my date pay 16:16:58 ;) 16:17:02 if ya know what i mean 16:17:05 eks: Which is more important, girl or wallet? :) 16:17:06 * ckm|away jokes of course 16:17:08 hahaha 16:17:21 imo, wallet! 16:17:27 ckm|away: you ask the girl if you could go shopping with them sometime... see the look on their face ;) never saw a girl saying no to that 16:17:29 wallet puts food on your table 16:17:32 girls are a luxury 16:17:37 If you behave like here in Real Life, you won't have to worry about dates. 16:17:40 hahahaha! 16:17:50 wow eks, had no idea 16:17:58 lol rob_ert 16:18:03 Invide them to a LAN party. 16:18:04 dont worry, i avoid that :) 16:18:09 hmm 16:18:13 good idea 16:18:16 if i would have one 16:18:17 ckm|away: ask a girl to go to a movie, 50% of them will say no, ask them to go shopping, 95% will say yes :P 16:18:23 i love those, but girls NEVER play games 16:18:29 its like the golden rule of girlyness 16:18:35 lol eks 16:19:06 Hrm. 16:19:09 eks, has this information got a money-back gurantee ? 16:19:10 I don't play games. 16:19:13 Am I a girl? 16:19:29 girls never play games, but people who never play games arent nessasarily girls 16:19:37 ckm|away: only with a thousand dollar deposit 16:19:56 lol 16:20:00 ckm|away: but chances are that during the shopping you will stop by an icecream/coffee shop for some refreshments 16:20:09 i see 16:20:12 and after shopping asking to go to a movie is quite easier :) 16:20:18 i always thought girls were generally "expensive" 16:20:22 so you end up having a "normal" date but you got the girl more easily ;) 16:20:28 but how much money do you think on average you would spend over the course of a month? 16:20:43 hrm... 50$ 16:20:44 including the average present (valentines, christmas, birthday, anniversary) 16:20:49 50$ 16:20:50 Heh. 16:20:51 damn, thats cheap 16:21:00 how much cost a flower? 16:21:04 1$? 16:21:08 roses can be quite expensive 16:21:10 "How much does a girl cost?" - "$50" - "Damn, that's cheap." 16:21:12 one flower each day, and you are still within budget 16:21:12 lol 16:21:15 You make me laugh. 16:21:17 hahaha 16:21:22 stop for coffee once a week, you are still below 50$ 16:21:32 now.. you got the flower each day and the coffee once a week.. 16:21:46 are there any more expenses with females apart from flowers? 16:21:50 add a movie every 2 week and a card every 6 month, + some chocolates once in a while 16:21:53 can't be more than that 16:22:01 if you for example take them to the movies, arent you expected to pay? 16:22:22 ckm|away: ofcourse, if you ever reach level 3, just before the monster spawn you will require to buy condoms.. 16:22:33 * ckm|away likes this girl so much, but he has a little "cash flow" problem if ya knwo what i mean ;) 16:22:46 You don't have to BUY her. 16:22:53 thats not too bad eks 16:22:57 ckm|away: that's all in the 50$/month :) 16:22:58 somehow i imagined more than that 16:22:58 * rob_ert sighs. 16:23:24 so 50$/month roughly equates to 600$/year 16:23:26 hmm 16:23:28 * eks thinks a cat cost about the same.. 16:23:35 Hehe 16:23:48 Get a dog, they're easier to get to love you. 16:23:49 ofcourse if you fuck the cat you will be seen as sick rather than normal 16:23:53 rob_ert: you dont have to BUY her? 16:24:02 lol rob_ert 16:24:04 ckm|away: Please, stop the trolling :) 16:24:15 ckm|away: most women nowadays do not appreciate if you pay for everything everytime 16:24:17 Tell chk|away to get a job 16:24:19 Hehe. 16:24:33 trollig? 16:24:43 Just stop trolling. 16:24:45 ckm|away: you pay once, she pays the next, alternate like that, it makes them feel "free" 16:24:52 what? i never heard of this "rule" 16:25:24 * ckm|away finds this intruiging 16:25:33 alright, so i know about the expenses and stuff 16:25:34 if you always pay for a girl she will start thinking she can't live on her own 16:25:35 --- join: Mathis (Mathis@gstw-d9b89f2a.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #osdev 16:25:54 --- join: Kurt (~kmw@gc-nas-01-s199.cinergycom.net) joined #osdev 16:25:55 very true eks 16:25:58 if you allow her to pay for her stuff and even yours once in a while it gives them the feeling they are free and in control 16:26:05 yeah 16:26:08 but i always assumed girls wanted to feel 'taken care of' and such, have their expenses payed 16:26:11 by their partner 16:26:14 but be sure to pay on the first few dates 16:26:27 ckm|away: they want to make sure you "think about her" (not the others) 16:26:27 * Kurt has made the mistake of not paying on the first date more than once... 16:26:28 hmm, i see, money is seen as a controlling/influencing factor? 16:26:43 haha Kurt, big mistake ;) 16:26:44 ckm|away: they don't require you to pay for everything they need, they need to be loved (eek.. I used that word) 16:26:54 * rob_ert <--- no dates, no paying :D 16:26:58 what, we cant just make out? 16:27:04 whats all this 'loved' stuff about? 16:27:07 of course, it turned out good in the end, because otherwise I might not be with the girl I'm with now--a girl with whom I couldn't be happier 16:27:20 hehe, cool Kurt 16:27:29 Well... 16:27:29 ckm|away: ahaha, some are just for fucking, but they aren't the one you want on a "date", you want them on a `date` 16:27:44 ahhh, i see 16:27:46 If a girl goes away because you don't pay her enough... just ignore her. 16:27:54 Treat her like an IRC troll after that :) 16:27:58 so you recommend i experiment a few times with some easy babes just for fucking 16:27:59 eheh 16:28:03 and then continue onto someone i really care about? 16:28:10 lol rob_ert 16:28:16 your not paying me enough, im ignoring you! 16:28:18 * ckm|away jokes 16:28:19 ckm|away: huh.. I wouldn't go that far 16:28:28 is that not what you suggested eks? 16:28:39 * eks hopes not :P 16:28:47 ckm|away: Can't you ever be serious? :) 16:28:47 "some are just for fucking" :) 16:28:56 rob_ert: depends on the circumstance 16:29:15 ckm|away: some girls want to fuck and never see you again, I met 2 or 3 like that, but they are not the "average" girl and surely not one you want to be with for a while 16:29:21 anyway, i can safely say (in all honest) that i dont wanna girl just for fucking 16:29:30 damn, thats just sad 16:29:46 they tell you right off the bat, "let's get some ass tonight and not see each other after", then you just say "alrigh'" 16:29:47 stupid player bitches :) 16:29:55 hehe, i see what you mean 16:29:57 ill try to avoid that 16:30:00 --- join: witten (~witten@131.179.104.17) joined #osdev 16:30:12 then again, its a tough decision 16:30:20 i could spend months and months working on fine tuning a relationship 16:30:29 and have it blow up 16:30:32 oh.. also a note.. you have more chance to get a girl if you already got one... 16:30:40 girls seems to prefer taken men.. go figure 16:30:44 hmm 16:30:49 your joking? 16:30:51 nope 16:30:55 Be a geek and forget girls. Easiest solution. 16:30:57 well, it makes sense 16:31:03 lol rob_ert, im strongly considering that course of action 16:31:04 girls generally want what they can't have 16:31:18 if you're already taken, they can't have you 16:31:19 if you are with a girl, it's that you are good for a girl. And like Kurt says, they want what they can't have 16:31:20 therefore, they want you 16:31:26 hmm 16:31:33 well if this isnt the paradox of the life time 16:31:38 you get girls when yourve already got one 16:31:42 Yay. 16:31:45 ckm|away: yeah.. 16:32:01 why do you think this is? 16:32:02 ckm|away: when you are single you can be single for a long time, but as soon as you get a gf you could easily get 2 or 3 more :p 16:32:05 Get a whole fucking harem and move to the Saharaha desert. 16:32:08 well, if you REALLY REALLY care about her and are able to convince her of it, then you should be fine even if you've never been with a woman before 16:32:10 hehe 16:32:12 i see eks 16:32:32 i see Kurt 16:32:36 lol rob_ert 16:32:42 I see you! I see you! 16:32:45 * rob_ert trolls. 16:32:55 * eks notices rob_ert trolling 16:33:01 :) 16:33:01 this 'girl' stuff is quite honestly complex, most parts of osdev is simpler than it! 16:33:06 * Kurt kills the troll in Rogue 16:33:20 ckm|away: Humans are complex. 16:33:21 * Kurt thinks about buying some real estate on E-Bay just for the hell of it 16:33:22 ckm|away: indeed... an x86 is much simpler than a girl 16:33:24 At least, some of them. 16:33:33 nah, us alpha males are so simple rob_ert 16:33:34 :) 16:33:38 * Kurt wishes E-Bay didn't require you to have a credit card to sell...gotta wait nine months until I turn 18 and can get one :( 16:33:39 indeed eks 16:33:40 Heh 16:33:53 i shoudl just go out with my cpu 16:33:56 much fun! 16:34:03 Why talk about "girls" as one group? Why not talk about boys instead? That'd sure be funnier., 16:34:06 ckm|away: at least they don't get jaleous ;) 16:34:11 hehehe 16:34:18 ive chated on my x86 with a PowerPC :( 16:34:21 cheated 16:34:25 Poor little you. 16:34:38 Anyone know where I can get a list of bank routing numbers? 16:34:41 eks: jelousy is a problem? 16:34:50 * ckm|away remembers eks law of girlodynamics 16:34:52 ckm|away: I daily play with the alpha and the athlon, they don't seem to mind, I think we make a nice threesome 16:34:57 No. Feelings is never a problem. 16:35:18 im thinking, once yuo get a girl, yourll instantly have multiple girls wanting you thus provoking the original girl into jelousy? 16:35:29 hehe eks 16:35:59 Geek + non-geek = meltdown. 16:36:03 ckm|away: one very complex part of the women is jealousy.. your girl wants you to be jealous when she's with other man.. but not excessively jealous.. more like just noticing that she was with another male and that you care for her... but at the same time she will tell you she doesn't want you to be jealous.. but she really do.. the balance is very hard to reach 16:36:05 hehe 16:36:23 lol 16:36:36 * rob_ert goes back to forth coding. 16:36:37 how often to girls do that... (ie, say one thing and mean the opposite 16:36:38 ) 16:36:43 i find it a quite confusing concept 16:36:46 very often *G* 16:36:49 oh dear 16:37:05 alright rob_ert, ive chosen your method 16:37:13 im now a geek who will never have a girl 16:37:25 seems easier 16:37:39 "Yeah ok, let's go to the bar tonight" meaning "I rather stay home and watch tv with a couple of friends and chat with Melanie" 16:37:49 lol 16:38:14 "Nah, it's alright, I don't mind" meaning "Yes I mind, would you please do what I want for once?" 16:38:19 lol 16:38:21 --- join: kemu (~nospam@adsl-64582.turboline.skynet.be) joined #osdev 16:38:23 hahah 16:38:37 if only there was some kinda real translater for this stuff 16:38:39 women are like that.. but oh well 16:38:50 hehe 16:39:07 why did i even begin thinking about the world of women 16:39:12 imo, its more trouble than its worth 16:39:15 ckm|away: puberty ;) 16:39:20 hehe, unfortionately 16:39:24 soon i will supress those urges 16:39:25 women are like software there better when it's free 16:39:29 and concentrate on hacking 16:39:33 hehehe kemu 16:39:38 they're* 16:39:47 * rob_ert is the never sleeping pedant. 16:39:48 kemu: yeah, and you can always upgrade to the latest model ;) 16:40:00 Small kids, that is? 16:40:03 i need more hard drive space 16:40:12 tenzin: to store more women? 16:40:16 stupid laptop 16:40:31 eks, can i just ask you, what are the main things women actually want to DO with their b/f? 16:40:35 tenzin: get 802.11b and use the storage on your desktop 16:40:54 no, to impress women with my gigs of warez 16:41:09 ckm|away: chat, talk, be their best friend 16:41:09 * ckm|away must wonder if SMP == Symetrical Multi Polygamy :) 16:41:12 eks: 802.11b doesn't have enough range. my laptop is in another city. 16:41:19 ah, that is what i thought eks 16:41:22 tenzin: :/ 16:41:26 i'm in melbourne.. desktop is in sydney :/ 16:41:39 wtf is the world coming to? discussion of women in #osdev?? 16:41:46 ckm|away: that's why shopping for a date is perfect, cause you will be chatting alot and entering in her daily life 16:41:55 other desktop is in some little town north of sydney 16:42:06 i seriosly thought you were joking about that "shopping" thing 16:42:07 witten women use os's to :p 16:42:09 hey shopping is cool 16:42:12 but now it makes more sense than ever 16:42:15 eks: I like the "entering in her daily" part 16:42:21 witten: :) 16:42:22 kemu: hah 16:42:22 yeah love shopping in a pc store :) 16:42:28 get a crontab entry and you got it ;) 16:42:34 kemu: lol 16:42:57 :] 16:42:59 i never understood women because my life was limited so much to coding, school, the religious reasearch of paganism and the study of physiks and astronomy 16:43:09 kemu: quite frankly, I prefer shopping in a cloths store with a girl, you get to see her in all kinds of outfits *G* 16:43:14 you need to be good at opinions when you go shopping with girls 16:43:24 i think becoming 'one with ones partners daily life' is a great idea 16:43:29 opinions? 16:43:31 im rubbish at those? 16:43:36 yeah 16:43:36 ack 16:43:41 have you got any tips? 16:43:41 ckm|away my girl once asked me me or the pc 16:43:44 tenzin: indeed... very opinionated 16:43:50 haha kemu 16:43:51 that really was a hard choose 16:43:56 tenzin: if you just say "it looks alright' all the time you are screwed 16:43:56 tough choice lol 16:44:05 agreed eks 16:44:24 kemu: just say her, even though your lying who cares? 16:44:37 yeah what did you thing I did 16:44:42 lol 16:44:45 you got to be able to say "yeah, that looks cool" and "nah, i dunno about that one" and not sound like too much of a dag when you when you keep saying that the black latex top with the 80's video game motif is heaps cool and rubbishing everything else 16:44:56 ckm|away: be truthfull with a woman, if a pair of pants give her a better looking ass in a pair of pants, make sure to note that she looks "better" in the pants in question 16:45:02 no I said if you let me choose between pc and you , then I don't think you love me 16:45:08 and she shit up about it 16:45:18 i personally hear people say 'honesty is the best policy' but in my opinion, things work out best when you lie.. do you think there are any situations where girls try to 'catch you out' or 'trick you out' so to say? 16:45:23 nah if you say everything looks good then she wont be sure 16:45:29 lol tenzin 16:45:47 ckm|away: they can't trick you out if you are not lying ;) 16:45:58 ckm|away: girls don't usually try to trick guys, but they'll still catch you out pretty quickly 16:46:03 i see eks 16:46:05 ckm|away: they will manage to catch you if you lie 16:46:07 lol eks 16:46:09 how eks? 16:46:12 or get suspicious anyway 16:46:12 what are the common ways of doing this? 16:46:14 girls are devious 16:46:18 hehe 16:46:21 im a good lyer 16:46:26 you guys are way overgeneralizing 16:46:28 they use "the force" 16:46:32 you better learn to be a good friend rather than a good liar 16:46:35 witten: yes. 16:46:40 overgeneralizing is the only way to tackle this situation witten 16:46:53 hmm eks 16:47:02 i guess i agree, i wouldnt have the heart to lie to the girl i really like 16:47:09 witten: girls can't be tackled one at a time and expect it to work in another situation, you need to generalize and do an overview to hope to start understanding them 16:47:24 exactly... 16:47:29 its like in any field of expertise 16:47:51 you over-generalise to begin with, and then begin to study the intracacies of the different substituents 16:47:53 let's get a girl in here for example's sake. 16:47:53 once you know what the general variables are, you can approach each individually and work down the maths 16:48:05 exactly... 16:48:20 once you have the overall homogenous formula, its just a matter of tweaking the variables to fit 16:48:31 changing the approach slightly 16:48:34 ckm|away: for some reason I always end up being their best friend they never want to make up with cause they don't want to break the fabulous relationship :( 16:48:38 im sure, that 99% of girls behave simularly 16:48:45 lol! 16:48:56 amazing eks 16:49:03 thats one thing i never understand about girls 16:49:07 eheh 16:49:16 take too long and eventually you become that "too good friend" who they cant afford to lose 16:49:19 *sigh* 16:49:22 then its on to the next 16:49:34 a girl see a relationship as something that can break and normally doesn't end up well, so they don't want to risk it with their best friend if they really like you.. go figure 16:49:39 i guess i was always right, timing is important 16:49:54 hehe 16:50:19 one point if you expect to sleep with a woman: don't let her talk too much about her ex-boyfriends 16:50:26 why? 16:50:38 try to avoid the subject, if you let them talk about it, you become their best friend and you reach the unfortunate situation 16:50:46 lol 16:50:50 thanks for the warning! 16:50:59 you can talk about anything but their ex-boyfriends.. 16:51:13 what do you think of guys talking about their ex-girlfriends? 16:51:25 does it freak the girl out, make them more a friend...? 16:51:27 or something else? 16:51:35 they don't normally like that.. 16:51:41 oh 16:51:47 cause we tend to go more on the "sexual" stories than any other aspects 16:51:48 ckm: don't do it too much.. makes you sound "still obsessed with them" 16:51:54 lol 16:51:55 and they don't like to have their sexual life put in public 16:51:57 of course 16:52:15 but in a non-sexual way its fine? 16:52:34 the first thing you hear between to guys talking about a girl is often "man.. you should have seen that, I *bang'd* her so hard on the couch this weekend" 16:52:34 tenzin: dont worry, i doubt ill ever get a girl anyway 16:52:58 rotflmao 16:53:02 ckm|away: yeah, like "my girl is very charming, she really enjoys taking walk in the park" 16:53:03 ckm: you will get a girl. there must be no doubt. 16:53:24 i assume 'bang'd' == screwed as opposed to attacked ;| 16:53:30 tenzin: why do you think so? 16:53:43 ckm|away: eehh, the hips on her hips.. *bang* *bang* *bang* ;) 16:53:44 ckm: it's a motivational thing. [shrug] 16:53:45 im 16 and i havent been asked, and ive been to shy to ask myself 16:53:59 ah of course eks 16:54:03 i am familiar with that work 16:54:06 ehehe 16:54:13 with your wrist? ;) 16:54:16 lol eks, that quote was so funny 16:54:36 it is of course unusual for a guy to notice non-sexual things like that right 16:54:41 and that would of course show them that you are sensitive? 16:54:44 (or am i wrong?) 16:54:50 you are right 16:54:54 ah, cool 16:55:04 they want a sensitive guy who can listen to their need but can stand in their defence if the need arise 16:55:10 tenzin: i see 16:55:20 arr, i hate standing in defence 16:55:37 you don't actually have to.. you just have to make them believe you will ;) 16:55:40 by defence, could you classify exactly what you mean 16:55:44 lol 16:56:02 s/classify/define 16:56:51 your girl hits a guy accidentally in the grocery store and reply "hey bitch, watch were you go will you?" , you ahve to reply to this guy, not shy away 16:57:03 if someone calls her a slut, you'll say "hey, that's not true, she only slept with 6 or 7 of my closest friends" 16:57:10 eks, you seem very wise, may i ask how old you are? 16:57:17 damn 16:57:30 like "I'm sorry that she hit you, but I don't appreciate the way you called her, thanks." 16:57:33 lilo isnt gonna stop until he gets every penny of that $12,000 16:57:41 tenzin: rotfl 16:57:53 ckm|away: hrm.. 167 16:57:55 :P 16:57:59 wow 16:58:04 ckm|away: actually 23 16:58:14 --- join: pavlovskii (pavlovskii@modem-836.abra.dialup.pol.co.uk) joined #osdev 16:58:16 alright, so assuming you do that, i assume you dont go "oi you motherfucker, you wanna take that back or ill fuck you up!!! hahaha !!", is there a definable point at how 'harsely' you should defend 16:58:17 I think most of my wisdom was acquired by being best friend rather than bf... 16:58:32 Hi pavlovskii. 16:58:34 hehe, i see what you mean 16:58:38 hey ho 16:58:44 i havent realyl been a best friend of a girl before 16:58:45 Want to join a stupid and pointless discussion, pav? 16:58:51 but it seems realyl interesting 16:59:00 --- quit: Javanx ("I don't feel a thing, and i stopped remembering. The days are just like moments tourned to hours") 16:59:00 ckm|away: well, it all depends on how big you are vs how big he is, the place and the girl you are with.. 16:59:01 haha pavlovskii 16:59:03 that's why I logged on, isn't it? :) 16:59:03 hey pavlovskii 16:59:08 lol 16:59:08 pavlovskii: :) 16:59:20 in postgres are there any unsigned integer types? 16:59:29 witten: AFAIK yeah 16:59:34 "INT UNSIGNED" 16:59:39 ckm: as much as you're confident with. no point putting on a show if it's obviously a bluff. "That's not appreciated" type replies are probably best.. 16:59:51 eks: no smallint unsigned? 16:59:54 eks: size has nothing to do with who wins the fight 16:59:55 eks: how do you feel about hiring someone to insult her and then take a beating? is violence too much? 17:00:10 witten: yeah, also probably "TINYINT UNSIGNED", unless it's mysql specific 17:00:22 air: agreed 17:00:23 what's the problem? 17:00:26 ckm: find out if the girl watches wrestling. 17:00:28 tenzin: i can keep up a 'bluff' as long as the next guy, im not afraid of that 17:00:31 lol tenzin! 17:00:35 eks: hm, unsigned doesn't seem to work for any of them 17:00:45 ckm|away: if you have to go that far, you are a pathetic loser 17:01:09 witten: duno, ask in #posgres ;) 17:01:16 i was just comtemplating, if there was a quick and easy way to get a girl to think you will protect her 17:01:17 lol 17:01:30 but me being broke and all, i wouldnt be able to afford it 17:01:33 ckm: you could just tell her. 17:01:40 eks: ok :) 17:01:44 ckm|away: forget about any "quick and easy way", they will sure lead you to a quick and easy relationship ending 17:02:09 ckm|away: you trying to pu? 17:02:14 ah 17:02:19 pavlovskii: pu? 17:02:24 pick up? 17:02:27 hehe 17:02:45 what's a good free web email service that has good filtering? 17:02:49 nah, just going over some ideas of how to sustain inter-gender relationships 17:02:52 i.e.: the girl after 5 years learn that you hired that guy to beat you up, then discovers that the flowers at the office on that day were delivered by one of his co-worker but you claimed them, you might just have your cloths in a bag on the sidewalk by tomorrow morning 17:03:02 lokl 17:03:10 tenzin: not hotmail 17:03:18 eks, why would she find out? would she be a paranoid who asks around? 17:03:48 is this one particular girl, or just in general? 17:03:50 ckm|away: no, you invite a friend at your place who knows about it, you two guys get drunk and start telling stories to each other, and that particular one is brought up by your friend.. *oops** 17:03:55 eks: and its hiring a guy to actually BEAT up not for them to beat YOU up 17:04:00 lo 17:04:01 lol 17:04:11 eks, thats why you cant tell anyone 17:04:28 ckm|away: that's why you don't want to fake any story, so that you don't have to hide anything 17:04:44 it's easier to be open book with the girl you love than play on her for your whole life 17:05:10 ok 17:05:12 i see what you mean 17:05:19 i agree completely 17:05:20 ckm: hire a guy to wrestle with and at the end shake hands and give eachother a hug so you look like you have the power to fight but can make friends too :) 17:05:28 lol 17:05:31 does that work tenzin? 17:05:38 ckm|away: in movies only ;) 17:05:42 lol 17:05:49 nah, i told you i waz br0ke 17:06:05 the most i can do is maybe ask a friend to fake a fight lol 17:06:10 erm 17:06:12 which would be too stupid 17:06:13 ckm|away: btw, money as nothing to do with love (but it helps to start it) 17:06:18 why is any violence needed? 17:06:37 its very complex pavlovskii, has something to do with "what women want"(tm) 17:06:45 pavlovskii: dunno, I think ck8 believes it is requierd to show his girl he can defend her.. which is not 17:06:45 ask the great eks he knows 17:06:52 --- join: nbsp (g@ip68-14-60-55.no.no.cox.net) joined #osdev 17:06:58 i dont think that for sure 17:06:59 ckm|away = ck8? 17:07:01 was just asking if it was 17:07:02 yes pavlovskii 17:07:04 o 17:07:32 nah, fighting is not needed, and imo very detrimental 17:07:37 indeed 17:07:39 i see 17:07:43 ill have to remember that 17:07:56 i always wonder, typically, do girls go for fighters or non-fighters? 17:08:03 mu 17:08:03 do they like their guys to be agressive when threatened 17:08:08 ? 17:08:21 try to avoid fighting, but don't let her down when a male call her a bitch or other stupid names 17:08:28 "that question cannot be answered because it relies on incorrect assumptions" 17:08:43 ckm: they like to feel safe. violent guys are a double edged sword. 17:08:46 i.e. stand up for yourself when necessary, but don't necessarily be aggressive 17:08:52 be confident, not an idiot 17:08:54 hmm, i agree tenzin 17:08:59 we are of course over-generalising 17:09:05 but i agree on some part 17:09:08 ckm|away: some do, but it's like S&M, some wants to be fucked while having an apple up their ass and barbwire on their tits, while others prefer to make love in the candle light in a satin bed 17:09:16 i see pavlovskii 17:09:32 lol eks 17:09:41 and some like satin up their ass and candle wax on their tits 17:09:43 it takes all kinds 17:09:48 lol witten 17:09:49 witten: ehehe 17:10:09 man, there is so much to girls it seems i can never understand it all fully 17:10:16 ckm|away: you can't 17:10:21 not even a woman can... 17:10:25 hmm 17:10:28 ckm|away: it is one of my life goals to understand women fully 17:10:32 in fact, the discovery of woman start by the discovery of yourself 17:10:33 hehe 17:10:38 --- quit: SLACKo ("[x]chat") 17:10:40 the trick isn't understanding "girls".. it's understanding one girl. that's all you have to do 17:10:42 ckm|away: I doubt I will achieve it 17:10:51 very wise words witten 17:10:55 witten: or some handy tricks that work on most girls ;) 17:11:05 handy tricks won't get you very far 17:11:06 but, unfortionatley, we arent all lucky enough to be with "one girl" all our lifes 17:11:16 witten: depends how far you need to get 17:11:17 and as such, we need a more generic understanding to help over the course of a life 17:11:30 ckm|away: if you learn to love your girl and you are truthful to her, you might just end up being the lucky one 17:11:42 i agree 17:11:58 im not disagreeing that its possible, but im saying its not guranteed 17:12:00 --- quit: Kurt (No route to host) 17:12:04 i think the sorts of girls that programmers dig usually vary from the norm anyway 17:12:11 lol 17:12:17 what kinda girls do you think that is tenzin? 17:12:26 there's nothign guaranteed in this world, except maybe your fridge for 6 months after purcahse 17:12:49 hey, I can't help it if my girlfriend knows c, c++, perl, and javascript 17:12:52 ckm: i can't say :) 17:12:55 "The only two things that are certain to be unlimited is the unvierse and human stupidity, but im not sure about teh former" ;) 17:13:22 i had a girlfriend who said she could program in python... she lied!! we broke up. 17:13:28 tenzin: most programmers I've seen end up with fat chicks with very nice personality and understanding, but aboslutely no sex appeal 17:13:39 to be honist, the last thing ill ever do is complicate thigns by wanting a girl who can code c, c++, perl, java... 17:13:43 because thats just sad 17:13:44 tenzin: haha 17:13:53 lol eks 17:14:03 hahaha tenzin 17:14:04 ckm|away: right, 17:14:05 ckm|away: why does that complicate things? 17:14:14 tenzin: hope you didn't broke up because she couldn't program in python :p 17:14:25 nah i've known lots of programmers to have good looking girlfriends.. just not the most normal girlfriends in the world. 17:14:25 because show me a good looking girl with a good knowledge of programming 17:14:31 i think yourll find theyre one in a million 17:14:40 hehe 17:14:45 ckm|away: girls with knowlege of programming = rare 17:14:52 good-looking girls = not command 17:14:54 *common 17:14:56 eks: well, that was basically it :) 17:14:58 good looking girls with knowledge of programming = hyper rare 17:15:05 tenzin: lol 17:15:12 exactly, multiply rare * rare = hyper rare 17:15:26 yup 17:15:44 so just stick with the good-looking girls and you'll have more luck 17:15:49 * eks wants a good looking chick, non-smoker, sportive, who knows asm on alpha 17:15:53 eks: nah, she was generally a lot less mature than she first appeared.. not just coding-wise. 17:15:58 the chance of them being straight, still alive, without a b/f and interesting in you 17:16:02 is highly unlikely 17:16:16 rare * rare * rare = hyper rare * rare = ultra rare 17:16:17 ckm|away is there a good looking man who can programme good ? 17:16:22 so the two solutions are: 17:16:25 hehe good point kemu 17:16:30 either (a) lower your standards 17:16:31 kemu: I'm cute ;) 17:16:33 eks: i know someone like that.. oh wait.. it's a guy. 17:16:40 or (b) try lots of random women until you pick the right one 17:16:41 tenzin: ehehe 17:16:48 indeed pavlovskii, i think (b) is better 17:16:50 tenzin: sorry, I'm not gay (yet) *g* 17:16:51 hehe girls say I'm cute to but I don't call myself a good programmer :) 17:16:55 ckm|away: exactly 17:16:55 or (c) teach her to program 17:16:58 to be honist, you dont need a g/f that can code or has your niterests 17:16:58 tenzin: I rather fuck my cpu before 17:17:07 eks: don't bend the pins 17:17:12 as nice as it is to chat about that stuff, there is irc and i do have friends who know that 17:17:15 eks: or use a Slot 1 chip 17:17:19 ehehe 17:17:30 in reality, you would wanna escape those things when yuor wtih a g/f 17:17:41 lol tenzin 17:17:51 ckm: but it's nice to have something to talk about after sex 17:17:59 how many here beleive women are inferior to men in terms of intellgence and ability to learn? 17:17:59 lol 17:18:06 yeah, the worse thing you can do is fall right asleep :P 17:18:13 ckm|away: no, they just think differently 17:18:20 sex then sleeping== female really angry 17:18:25 women hate anything as logical as programming 17:18:35 beleive me - teaching them would be more trouble than its worth 17:18:36 ckm|away: wrong, many do like it 17:18:54 im sure those people have learned via school, books or independantly on web 17:19:07 that's true ckm|away I do it that way 17:19:12 In school I see shit now 17:19:20 I see word and excell 17:19:26 eheh 17:19:32 i myself must confess to being a book learner :) 17:19:38 me 2 17:19:44 but books are expensive 17:19:47 but these days, books are great 17:19:49 I buy books but I don't read them 8) 17:19:55 i have learned english from a book 17:20:02 if you can pick the right ones kemu, they arent too expensive 17:20:03 like now I've got a book on python cost me 67euro's 17:20:09 wow 17:20:14 thats a lot of money for a 17year old 17:20:20 i agree 17:20:23 who gets 35euro's every month from his dad 17:20:29 ckm|away: on the whole, men think in terms of logic, and women in terms of emotions 17:20:42 very true pavlovskii 17:20:51 but that is again, a generalisaton 17:20:52 yeah women are fucking emotional 17:20:52 pavlovskii: that sounds like it's based on truth 17:20:55 hate that 17:21:04 they don't like lying 17:21:07 hate that 17:21:14 im wondering, ive always heard of these 'signals' that girls send otu when they like a guty 17:21:14 that's "street psychology" and not "real psychology" though 17:21:20 but ive never exactly noticed them 17:21:26 anyone know what thats about? 17:21:33 no, because the girl thinks she's being obvious 17:21:34 ckm|away maybe cause no girl ever liked you ? 17:21:37 :D 17:21:38 ta-tuu!!!! 17:21:41 :) 17:21:43 that's what theyd o 17:21:44 ckm|away: they quickly put in place their hair when they see you coming 17:21:44 yah, real nice thing to say kemu 17:21:47 you should remember that emotions are a type of logic. 17:21:50 and the bloke just thinks it's normal behaviour 17:21:56 wow, i didnt know that one eks 17:21:59 ckm|away: they remove the folds in their dress before turning around 17:22:00 you know any more? 17:22:29 ckm|away: there are loads of them 17:22:32 ckm|away: they give a swing to their head when they turn to look at you so the hairs "fly" in the air rather than just flat turning 17:22:39 a *BIG* one is her touching you 17:22:44 ^^ very important 17:22:45 ehehe, yeah 17:22:58 lol 17:22:58 especially if she touches your tooter 17:23:04 if she grabs your hand in the restaurant, or just touch the tip of your finger.. <-- SIGN 17:23:15 there's one exception to this whole girl signal stuff 17:23:22 ...if you then touch her <- SIGN TO HER 17:23:22 ho's! 17:23:22 alright, asume your hanging around high schoo 17:23:25 :P 17:23:27 huh.. yeah, the one that leaves a mark ;) 17:23:27 l 17:23:36 ho's ? 17:24:01 ckm|away: ? 17:24:07 hoar 17:24:10 Rico's comment 17:24:16 you mean whore or hoe? 17:24:32 ckm|away: I think "hoe" is a little out-of-context, no? :) 17:24:44 i have no idea, thats what rico said 17:24:49 Rico: you screwed up the whole discussion! 17:24:49 Hoi, Rico! 17:24:55 lol yah 17:25:02 alright, you guys have been a ton of help 17:25:07 ;) 17:25:08 you have cleared up about 1% of the confusion i have on girls 17:25:14 rotfl 17:25:19 i think im ready to begin my life as a geek who no longer cares about girls :) 17:25:20 I did?!? 17:25:26 no not you Rico! 17:25:31 yay ckm 17:25:36 Rico: Still waiting.... 17:25:38 Rico: you started talking about gardening implements 17:25:38 ckm|away: welcome to the club 17:25:43 :) 17:25:45 Hoi, rob_ert! 17:25:46 :D 17:25:48 Rico: :D 17:25:51 * eks should try to get official wife status for his athlon 17:25:54 just 1 question 17:26:05 i will survive not interacting with girls wont i? 17:26:15 it wont make me go mad or anything? 17:26:16 ckm|away: personally, yes 17:26:19 ah, good 17:26:20 ckm|away: genetically, no 17:26:23 ckm|away: yeah, you will get thick skin inside your main hand ;) 17:26:47 eks: there's some eastern meditation techniques that will make you even more powerful for it. 17:27:01 hehe 17:27:02 tenzin: yeah, I actually studied some of it :) 17:27:05 i haven't worked out what htey are yet tho 17:27:09 tenzin: scary, but it works *G* 17:27:23 dont worry pavlovskii, ive already got a plan to clone myself and make an army of corsairk8's to make future os's 17:27:28 eks: what sort? 17:27:44 there are many more numbers left after 8 :) 17:27:44 it's all about concentrating on your lower belly, try to keep it always relax 17:28:06 * eks notices we are _very_ far from #osdev ;) 17:28:12 eks: buddhist, hindu, yoga..? 17:28:14 lol 17:28:15 um 17:28:20 * pavlovskii thinks of an OS topic 17:28:30 yoga and buddhism 17:28:34 you must have a steady mind before you have a steady OS 17:28:55 you must have used windows to appreciate linux.. 17:29:20 cors: how did the night out with the drinking go? 17:29:27 and, to some extent, vice versa 17:29:46 pavlovskii: right, I almost forgot for once thatyou were an NT whore 17:29:57 :) 17:30:01 he still is 17:30:10 Rico: that's the scary part 17:30:10 did you read those articles on OSnews? 17:30:17 you know, the articles? 17:30:22 eks: but so am I.. 17:30:22 pavlovskii: the one about closed/open source software? 17:30:32 eks: no, those other articles 17:30:44 Rico: you are by lack of knowledge, he is by wisdom 17:30:53 :| 17:31:00 pavlovskii: I read many many many many articles from osnews.. please be more specific 17:31:03 * Rico smashes eks with a baseballbat 17:31:11 eks: I'm trying 17:31:13 Rico: that won't bring you wisdom ;) 17:31:26 hmm.. anyone know what the sign language deaf people use in belgium is called or is related to? 17:31:29 it doesn't remove it either 17:31:31 the two articles by that Windows guy in the magazine who installed Linux and didn't like it 17:31:43 gebarentaal 17:31:44 tenzin: nope, sorry 17:31:49 "I've Learned to Like Linux (but Not to Love it)" 17:32:02 pavlovskii: yeah, read it, got some good points in it 17:32:13 I'm not sure what to make of it 17:32:21 one part of me says, "RTFM!" 17:32:25 eheh 17:32:32 the other says "you shouldn't have to RTFM" 17:32:33 the other side says, "he shouldn't need to R the FM!" 17:32:36 ;) 17:32:41 drat :) 17:32:48 example: 17:32:59 a door with a handle and a sign saying "PUSH" 17:33:13 you try to pull the handle anyway, then once you RTFM, you push it instead 17:33:24 ehehe 17:33:27 why not replace the handle with a push plate and remove the sign? 17:33:30 i believe you shouldn't ever have to RTFM. Manuals are so 20 years ago. 17:33:43 the door becomes instantly intuitive and the "manual" becomes unnecessary 17:33:49 tenzin: I think that reading the manual does help udnerstand what it is you are doing.. 17:34:01 manuals are good for tasks that are recall-only (like programming), but not for most UI tasks 17:34:03 but it seems we are even moving away from that, and we try to not have to understand what we are paid for.. 17:34:18 one point made on OSnews was that he should RTFM to change the resolution in X 17:34:19 i'm planning to make a no-manual programming language :) 17:34:36 tenzin: I've seen it done (almost) 17:34:50 pavlovskii: you actually have to RTFM in Windows to, unless you have a friend or you dig around 17:35:20 it's not evident for everybody that right clicking on the desktop, clicking on "setting" than changing the slide to right or left than pressing "apply" is the way to go 17:35:33 pavlovskii: my langauge will be fast. fast as can be. 17:35:36 eks: it's possible to work out most things in Windows by trial-and-error 17:35:47 although R'ing the FM is probably quicker for complete newbies 17:35:54 pavlovskii: given just a nice "configuration panel" in X it is too 17:36:06 and that's what desktop environment like Gnome and KDE are all about 17:36:10 * pavlovskii thinks of the SuSE X configuration program 17:36:22 see ya guys, its been fun talking 17:36:25 they provide a desktop with easy access to configuration tools 17:36:26 --- quit: ckm|away () 17:36:32 --- quit: Mathis ("User pushed the X - because it's Xtra, baby") 17:36:49 ok, and that's a good thing 17:36:56 yes 17:37:04 but there are still too many other fiddly bits that do require a manual 17:37:11 the main problem that we have in the computer world is the copyrights 17:37:28 The solution is to ignore them. 17:37:41 and everybody know that if we just copy over the configuration panel MS made for Windows (which came out of years of research) they will just get sued 17:37:43 (Until you get a company or something) :P 17:37:55 eks: why haven't Apple got sued yet? 17:38:04 eks: or why haven't Apple sued Microsoft yet? 17:38:06 pavlovskii: because apple sued microsoft first 17:38:15 (which came first: the Mac control panel or the Windows control panel?) 17:38:16 apple did sue ms 17:38:22 well 17:38:23 there ya go 17:38:40 but it was about the trash can and other useless tidbits 17:38:44 ok 17:39:01 the configuration panels in mac and windows are quite different looking 17:39:03 anyway, it's surely possible to design an intuitive UI without infringing somebody's copyright 17:39:10 they work similarly but they can't be seen as "copy" of one another 17:39:16 in fact, you'd only infringe copyright if you copied their code and/or icons 17:39:30 yes, and Apple is the first company to make something really intuitive not looking like windows 17:39:30 and I very much doubt anyone has patented the concept of a "Control Panel" 17:39:45 pavlovskii: you'd be surprised :p 17:40:01 correction: 17:40:12 I very much doubt anyone has patented the concept of a "Control Panel" which would stand up in court :) 17:40:17 the US Patent Office is .. very very very leeneant 17:40:25 ehehe, true 17:40:32 but most ppl do not have the money to fight against MS in court 17:40:39 therefore they don't take the risk and try to avoid it 17:40:58 hell, even the gov is backing down on simple request in the MS trial after MS was proven guilty 17:41:53 there should be one law in software industry, if you have a monopoly in a particular area, your APIs and File formats should be made public 17:42:15 exactly like you can buy the wiring schematic for your cars, you should be able to know how your files are saved 17:42:36 so you can be able to retrieve _your_ information if _their_ software goes wrong 17:43:11 I'm not sure what the problem with non-publicness of Office file formats is 17:43:16 I'm sure I have the formats documented here 17:44:10 prob with the office formats is you need to have the complete Windows API to be able to read "any" word doc (because of all the shit you can embed).. not anything to do with the format itself. 17:44:48 you need to understand docfiles and OLE streams, right 17:44:57 here we go: "Microsoft Word 97 Binary File Format" 17:45:09 my MSDN is _old_ so no Office 2000 17:45:49 judging by the file format spec, I would not like to look at any of the Word code :) 17:45:56 tenzin got a point there, that's why both the API and the file foramt have to be opened 17:46:20 any useful APIs are open for sure -- http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/ 17:46:26 file format... partly open 17:46:46 I could parse files from Office 97 given this ancient MSDN CD 17:46:52 go help the wine project 17:46:52 pavlovskii: yeah, and what you get is partial file format support (think of OpenOffice) 17:47:21 you can read Word 2002 documents, but some little things here and there fucks it up 17:47:27 hmm 17:47:37 like a separate text box in the header of a document, which in OpenOffice generate a completely separate page 17:49:42 --- join: lynx_away (~lynx@p508096FF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 17:49:52 --- quit: lynx_away (Remote closed the connection) 17:49:53 --- join: lynx_away (~lynx@p508096FF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 17:50:10 lynx_away: Orbital rock! 17:50:33 live bands rule :) 17:50:34 * eks gives lynx a biscuit 17:50:37 they are always wrth their money 17:50:39 :) 17:50:41 --- nick: lynx_away -> lynx 17:50:42 mmm biscuit :) 17:50:43 rain sucks though :/ 17:50:51 it was outside and we all got soaked 17:51:12 * lynx installed wumpus on his palm 17:51:15 heh 17:51:22 wumpus? 17:51:25 * pavlovskii installed Linux on his palm 17:51:28 didn't work though 17:51:36 eks : you dunno it ? 17:51:55 eks : wumpus or wump .. type it in an usual linux/greebsd install 17:52:35 http://www.isecomm.com/~euched/divorce_Sept_11_Style.jpg 17:52:37 LOL! 17:54:29 heh 17:55:39 eheh 17:55:49 sh: wump: command not found 17:55:49 sh-2.05a$ wumpus 17:55:49 sh: wumpus: command not found 17:56:08 sh-2.05a$ emerge -s wump 17:56:08 [ Results for search key : wump ] 17:56:08 [ Applications found : 0 ] 17:56:13 bah 17:56:21 then it is no real *nix 17:56:25 go away! 17:56:31 i dont want to play with you anymore! 17:56:42 you guys read about that asteroid that came only 120,000km away from earth on june 14? 17:56:45 http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992444 17:56:57 it wasn't even detected before june 17! 17:57:06 --- join: _avlovskii (pavlovskii@modem-1.awesome.dialup.pol.co.uk) joined #osdev 17:57:13 lol 17:57:23 --- quit: pavlovskii (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement))) 17:57:32 --- nick: _avlovskii -> pavlovskii 17:57:55 anyone know any digital signal processing? 17:58:01 war is not about who is right, but who is left 17:58:33 eks? you usually know stuff like this 17:59:31 pavlovskii: I gave a dsp board to raptor-32, but I never actualy used it 17:59:46 hmm, I was just playing with filters for my Winamp vis 18:00:06 I'm low-pass filtering the waveform before displaying it 18:00:09 Herr lynx! 18:00:15 hallo 18:00:41 pavlovskii: low/high/band pass filters I knwo though 18:00:43 hrm 18:00:46 pavlovskii: what do you wanna know? 18:00:48 eek eeek ekk 18:01:01 * lynx is thinking 18:01:15 eks: atm I'm applying a low-pass filter by averaging one sample with the next 18:01:20 a simple FIR filter 18:01:24 pavlovskii : what do you want to code? 18:01:43 I'd like to bring the cutoff frequency down, to get a smoother wave 18:02:02 do I stick with this second order filter and play with the coefficients 18:02:17 or do I go to a 4th order filter (i.e. average 4 samples)? 18:02:33 I suppose I could design one in Matlab to do the job 18:02:56 hrmm.. 18:03:39 you will have a smoother curve by averaging on power of 4 or higher that's for sure 18:03:53 but the cutoff frequency won't be brought down 18:03:59 hrm 18:04:02 * lynx thinking 18:04:25 I don't really need to filter it but I'd like to remove the crappy bits from the wave so it looks good 18:04:29 this synth stuff... ink wanted to do.. 18:04:32 it is interesting 18:04:41 * eks normally used capacitors, resistors and coils to do filters.. not maths 18:04:42 yes, that's what got me thinking about this 18:04:55 pavlovskii : hrm 18:05:05 pavlovskii : too bad ... 18:05:12 i would liek to have some bigger project 18:05:13 pavlovskii: than averaging is what you want, it would indeed remove the stray bits 18:05:13 hrm 18:05:25 pavlovskii : any ideas? 18:05:40 maybe you could use a logarithmic average, where the highest the frequency the widest is the average 18:05:52 or should I say exponential 18:06:05 lynx: not really 18:06:11 eks: how would that look? 18:06:17 or work? 18:06:44 eks : i lost my sources to my oswrapper i coded ... 18:06:53 let's say you have a frequency of 400Hz, you could average on 2 sample, but if you have 800Hz, you average on 6 samples 18:06:53 well there were basically only gfx routines in it :( 18:07:01 if you have 1.4KHz, you average on 10 samples 18:07:04 etc 18:07:17 this would smooth out any peak unless it is sustained, therefore getting rid of the stray bits 18:07:24 hmm 18:07:39 yet, the low bases wouldn't require too much computations and would look as good and vibrant as before 18:07:42 I'll try a straight 4th order filter and see what it looks like 18:07:53 hey, I could do a band-pass filter 18:07:58 that would look cool 18:08:02 aha! 18:08:10 * pavlovskii remembers impulse responses 18:08:11 hrm.. ppl normally like to have a visual display of the bases 18:08:39 draw your frequency response in the frequency domain, inverse FFT it, and that's your impulse response 18:09:02 eheh 18:09:27 Good night all, it's already 03:00 :( 18:09:31 gn rob_ert 18:09:34 gn 18:09:36 nite 18:09:38 bah 18:09:39 shit 18:09:41 ACH 18:09:43 http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992441 18:09:48 hrm 18:09:54 osdevelopment alone is boring 18:09:59 w00t.. a carnivor from africa first taken in picture alive... 18:10:04 i will wait until raptor gets his shite done 18:10:12 carnivor ? 18:10:23 * lynx thinking 18:10:25 ok 18:10:45 * lynx goes to learn some c and some SDL shite 18:10:57 I want to see a picture of a live giant squid 18:11:01 i would like to make a drum machine or something 18:11:04 or, better, a real giant squid 18:11:08 at Sea World 18:11:13 lynx: I'm installing a school paging system tomorrow :P 18:11:22 school paging system ? 18:11:24 for 30 classrooms and 2 gymnesiums 18:11:30 at sea world? i want one in my living room 18:11:32 ohhh 18:11:32 you know.. intercoms.. speakers, etc.. 18:11:36 yeah 18:11:36 eks: heh, make sure you swap the right classrooms in when they're needed 18:11:38 nite :P 18:11:41 neat 18:11:46 and page out the empty ones 18:11:53 aargh 18:11:58 I've forgotten how to do filters 18:11:58 heh 18:12:00 ok 18:12:00 pavlovskii: it's saturday tomorrow, all the classroms will be empty 18:12:00 --- quit: rob_ert ("Nothing is real. I think.") 18:12:06 time for ... 18:12:07 eks: lucky for you :) 18:12:09 :) 18:12:13 *thinking* 18:12:19 muhahaha 18:12:20 lynx: camwhores.com! 18:12:27 boy 18:12:33 soundstuff would be interesting 18:12:45 and the world would benefit from opensource soundtools 18:12:47 and me , too 18:12:59 * lynx imagines doing nice tracks with his own programs 18:13:07 ok 18:13:12 lynx: the guy who came on before Orbital did everything from his laptop 18:13:24 time to disconnect my celeron and put my sgi machone online 18:13:25 just this guy on a desk in the middle of this outdoor stage with an iBook or something 18:13:27 pavlovskii : i know 18:13:43 pavlovskii : today _EVERYONE_ does the sampling , etc by software 18:13:53 hrm 18:14:15 mMMmmmm font antialiasing ... Mmmmmmm 18:14:27 ... 18:14:38 * eks enjoys is home-compiled mozilla+xfree86 18:14:47 ok 18:14:54 would i do a nice drum machine ? 18:15:04 probably not ... too weak skills 18:15:06 hrm 18:15:10 but hrm 18:15:16 yeah yeah! port fruity loops to linux! 18:15:16 lynx: I don't think it's hard 18:15:27 i could design it to fit dj needs for realtime shite 18:15:41 does ink's project have a nice front end for people? 18:15:43 pavlovskii : i want it to be able to do cliqhop-like sounds 18:15:50 pavlovskii : dunno 18:15:51 i.e. can you design synths with dials and switches? 18:16:03 ok 18:16:04 moment 18:16:09 i switch to my indigo2 18:16:10 cliqhop = ? 18:16:16 the dev environment is simply better there 18:16:20 pavlovskii : well 18:16:24 pavlovskii : hard to explain 18:16:33 send us mp3's of what you mean 18:16:39 pavlovskii : complex percussion with hardly any straight beats 18:16:44 well 18:16:49 breakbeat? 18:16:51 search the net for funkstoerung... 18:16:53 no 18:16:58 I want to install linux at home. I'm gonna pretend that I am a competant linux user but have no idea what distros I should run. I dont want a lot of fancy X apps, but I would like to run windowmaker and have a decent install. Which should I use? 18:17:01 it is really about the beats 18:17:05 not the whole rythm 18:17:20 distro that is 18:17:29 you have beats that are somewhat distrotioned in a strange way 18:17:45 well 18:17:49 basically ... 18:17:55 you could download it from my ftp server 18:18:05 but i would have to type 3 commands 18:18:18 to start it 18:18:19 yes? 18:18:25 yep. 18:18:37 you've typed 6 things abuot it in here 18:19:17 i would have to press alt+f2 18:19:30 sounds difficult 18:19:41 not everyone could master such a task 18:20:05 a three toed sloth may struggle with it 18:20:17 lynx: I wonder how you learn about the theory behind sythesisers etc. 18:20:46 pavlovskii : how do you mean that? 18:20:48 drum machine = FM noise generator? 18:20:52 you think i am too stupid ? 18:20:57 no, I am :) 18:21:00 well 18:21:03 hrm 18:21:06 i suck at maths 18:21:08 I mean, how does one find out? 18:21:18 pavlovskii : no clue :P 18:21:23 hmm 18:21:25 how do they work? 18:21:37 technically ? 18:21:40 if you find that out, you could apply that to software 18:21:50 ja 18:21:58 pavlovskii : ok 18:22:07 pavlovskii: they are just wave generators, and they use one or two waves to control the amplitude of the main wave 18:22:31 pavlovskii : ok -> ftp://lynks.servebeer.com 18:22:32 yep, and also frequency modulation 18:22:44 yip 18:22:55 fm is done using VCO 18:22:57 quite easy :P 18:23:05 vco? 18:23:12 Voltage Controlled Oscillators 18:23:33 basically you have a dc voltage at the input 18:23:49 the higher the voltage the higher the frequency (or the lower depending on the design) 18:24:05 that's exactly how a fm transmitter/receiver works 18:24:11 you can simulate various instruments that way 18:24:44 --- join: ether\ZzZ (~Under@200-41-33-176-tntteco1.dial-up.net.ar) joined #osdev 18:24:50 you have the audio signal as the vco input, the osciallator is built to have a ground of the radio station frequency (i.e.: 101.5fm) and you send that to a power amplifier connected to an antenna 18:25:33 pavlovskii: given enough of those vco in parallel finely tuned you could reach multipler harmonics and generate a rich sound 18:25:45 s/multipler/multiple/ 18:25:50 ok, so what about percussion 18:25:54 noise + VCO? 18:26:02 no 18:26:11 most percussions have 6 harmonics 18:26:38 and they are just used in under a 'n' wave 18:27:15 the 6 harmonics are all on a base frequency generated depending on the diameter of the skin of the drum or the material used 18:27:35 ok 18:27:42 the distorion on the 'n'-shaped wave form depends on what you used to hit the instrument 18:27:58 hand/stick/rubberstick.. 18:28:59 after the hit the last part of the n-shaped wave is logarithmic, you make it last longer or shorter depending on how long you want your instrument to vibrate after it's hit 18:29:21 i.e.: hitting a drum with an open slap or hitting a drum with a closed slap (keeping your hand on the drum after hitting it) 18:29:34 both the open and closed sound start the same 18:29:39 since they are both coming from a hand slap 18:30:02 but since the hand continues to touch the skin you are killing the vibes thus the sound dies faster 18:30:21 ok 18:30:22 YAY 18:30:26 my indigo2 missed me 18:30:28 :) 18:30:30 lynx: :) 18:30:37 booting her 18:30:40 lynx: it told you "I LUV U LYNX!" ? 18:30:44 lol 18:30:57 eks : _S_H_E_ 18:31:03 right right.. 18:31:10 lynx: she told you "I LUV U LYNX!" ? 18:31:55 ja :) 18:32:04 by booting 3.34 mins :) 18:32:11 instead of 3.45 18:32:14 anyone know if iptables can log to a file other than syslog? 18:32:25 damn irix 6.5.13 lags the whole machine down :/ 18:32:28 eks: see what you mean... there are a lot of harmonics on this random sample I opened 18:32:37 air: I think it depends of which logger you use, pretty usre metalog can do it 18:32:38 the 6.5.8 is damn fast compared to that 18:33:00 pavlovskii: very few sounds are made of "noise" 18:33:17 pavlovskii: most "noise" are in fact just various waveforms built out of different sets of harmonics 18:33:39 --- quit: slime ("leaving") 18:34:05 * pavlovskii has got a loop going 18:34:12 essentially everything is built from a kinda sin-shaped waveform, which is further modified by the 'envelope' or 'carrier' 18:35:16 if the AM radio stations used a frequency of 100Hz instead of a couple of MHz, every AM antennas would be a huge speaker :P 18:36:13 technically speaking the sound woulnd't be great until they at least broadcast at 40KHz though (close to cd samples) 18:36:35 is there a /proc or /dev file that i can open and read network connection info from? 18:36:36 but by then you couldn't hear right away from the antenna :/ 18:36:44 depends whether you were transmitting music or speech 18:36:56 air: /proc/net/* 18:37:03 the sampling frequency for speech is IIRC 8kHz 18:37:24 air: you got a dev dir in there that is for the adapters, a 'route' file, etc.. 18:38:04 pavlovskii: to be able to reproduce a sound with fidelity when playing it back, you need to sampe at at least twice the highest frequency you will record 18:38:12 eks: yep 18:38:29 heh 18:38:30 since the highest sound the voice can produce is around 3.2KHz, the minimum frequency is 6.4KHz 18:38:34 btw, /me took various DSP and communications courses 18:38:38 we normally use 8KHz (like for the phone systems) 18:38:44 :) 18:38:47 * eks too 18:38:51 * lynx not :( 18:39:11 lynx too young 18:39:14 i dont see any good info there 18:39:20 ok 18:39:22 unless German schools teach that kind of thing 18:39:23 ok 18:39:26 air: most of it is encoded, not human readable 18:39:29 * lynx convinced 18:39:32 air: but all your info is there 18:39:36 the world needs a good drum machine 18:39:36 >:) 18:39:39 * ether\ZzZ has an oscillator made by himself 18:39:43 an opensource one! 18:39:50 eks: there may be harmonics/resonance in the voice that is higher than 3.2khz.. that's just the highest base frequency 18:39:56 ether\ZzZ: ehehe, I made several back in my school days 18:39:59 bish bish bish bosh 18:40:05 eks :) 18:40:06 cool 18:40:11 --- nick: ether\ZzZ -> EtherNet- 18:40:17 tenzin: yeah, that's why cd quality music always sound better than your mom on the phone ;) 18:40:23 you mean an oscillator that does a certain frequency ? 18:40:26 It's on 441.000 MHz (UHF) 18:40:32 oh 18:40:32 lynx exactly 18:40:35 well 18:40:41 I used a crystal 18:40:47 heh 18:40:48 EtherNet-: bah, using a crystal is cheating 18:40:52 eks heehe 18:40:56 you just give it a noise and it outputs a pulse .. 18:40:58 I made one using inductances too 18:41:00 the best is still a SPule + capacistor 18:41:04 but it's too much unstable 18:41:11 gr 18:41:16 capacity + hrm 18:41:18 22.05khz (the highest a cd can do) is actually quite audiable to most people.. CD quality is crap. 18:41:19 how is it called 18:41:27 high frequencies rc based osciallators are hard to make 18:41:27 the evil looped cable 18:41:28 ? 18:41:36 eks I know it 18:41:41 on a cylinder 18:41:51 lynx inductance 18:41:52 looks like |//////| 18:41:53 ? 18:42:00 lynx: coil 18:42:04 hrmja 18:42:10 capacitors and coils 18:42:12 coil + capacitor is still the best :) 18:42:17 :) hhe 18:42:18 bah, stick with digital 18:42:25 heh, clearest sound for sure 18:42:34 the crystal is good for digital clocks, not for sines 18:42:39 eks : you can produce cool sounds with it 18:42:39 i want a digital coil + capacitor simulator 18:42:50 tenzin: lol 18:42:51 * pavlovskii was thinking of double cos(double a); 18:42:55 eks : just put a magnet through the coil and you make some cool 70s noises :) 18:43:09 lynx: ehehe 18:43:21 you: you know how the sound is produced babe? 18:43:29 me? 18:43:32 s/you/lynx/ 18:43:34 ;) 18:43:35 sure 18:43:41 how does it work? 18:43:44 i am in an advanced physics course :P 18:43:46 "take off your clothes and i'll show you" 18:43:48 * eks sits comfortably and listens to teacher lynx 18:43:53 bah 18:43:59 well 18:44:05 difficult to explain ... 18:44:07 in english 18:44:10 ahah 18:44:12 basically ... 18:44:43 har 18:44:49 *remembering* 18:44:54 lines of flux ;) 18:45:02 induction.. 18:45:38 well 18:45:45 you have a capacitor which is loaded 18:45:54 and your coil connected to it like : 18:46:00 lynx: what does it have to do with a coil and a magnet babe? 18:46:03 -| |- 18:46:06 | 18:46:08 oops 18:46:10 -| |- 18:46:13 | | 18:46:19 that's a capacitor 18:46:21 -//- 18:46:25 muhahah 18:46:42 EtherNet-: he is showing a balanced rc circuit 18:46:45 it works on the principle of self-induction the coil does 18:46:51 eks ah ok 18:46:56 ASCii circuits sucks.. 18:46:57 really 18:47:00 eheh 18:47:22 the energy in the capacitor goes to the coil 18:47:25 p(R:C)->out 18:47:29 and generates a magnet field 18:47:42 the magnet field itself generates energy 18:47:48 in the other direction 18:47:59 depending on the constellation of the circuit 18:48:05 you can set a frequency 18:48:06 :P 18:48:08 constellation?? 18:48:12 well 18:48:14 construction? 18:48:16 tuning? 18:48:23 how many uF the C has or ... so 18:48:24 yeah 18:48:25 tuning 18:48:28 ;) 18:48:36 it is long ago 18:48:43 well, that isn't making music using a coil and a magnet 18:48:48 but you use the same principle to generate ANY kind of waves 18:48:49 like 18:48:52 microwaves 18:49:04 you just use a shorter coil and smaller capacitor 18:49:16 eks : well 18:49:26 make me a simulator 18:49:31 ! 18:49:35 :] 18:49:38 >:} 18:49:43 eks : if you have a big coil you can increase the hrm ... how is it called ? inductionconstant thing 18:49:45 tenzin: look for a SPICE package 18:49:55 there must be a free one somewhere 18:50:00 pavlovskii: does that do audio out tho? 18:50:00 eks : i mean a big coil and you put a magnet in the middle 18:50:14 eks : you change the magnet field 18:50:15 tenzin: sorry, just numbers :( 18:50:17 and does it let you wave about a magnet with the mouse? 18:50:39 lynx: do you know how moving the magnet makes the sound being generated? 18:50:46 eks : which changes the frequency the energy goes to those components 18:51:05 eks : yeha ... but you would have to move it quite fast , eh ? 18:51:20 eks : or use a big magnet to induct enough energy to load the capacitor 18:51:22 as fast as you want the speaker to move yeah 18:52:05 and you thought masturbating made your hand sore 18:52:10 speed of magnet = proportional to speaker displacement 18:52:18 no 18:52:29 not if you have a capacitor in the circuit 18:52:42 lynx: we were talking of magent+coil only 18:52:48 ah , ok 18:52:51 sure 18:52:59 if you can move it with 440 hz 18:52:59 ok, voltage in coil o< magnet speed 18:53:01 what happened to the capacitor? 18:53:10 if you talk about RC tuned circuits you odn't need no stinkin' magnet :P 18:53:13 tenzin : commited suicide 18:53:23 eks : yeah 18:53:25 voltage on capacitor = voltage on inductor, unless there's a speaker in there 18:53:33 eks : but you can make cool sounds with it! 18:53:34 aargh, I can't think circuits on IRC 18:53:35 like ... 18:53:45 pavlovskii: me neither. 18:53:46 UIiiiiiiioooOOooooUUUUIIiiiiIIIOOOOOoeeeeeEeee 18:53:48 tenzin: you connected it in direct polarity on a 9volts battery ;) 18:53:51 :P 18:54:16 tenzin: especially not at 3am 18:54:20 uhh 18:54:23 * eks made nice smoke shows and explosions with 9volts batteries :P 18:54:24 pavlovskii : weak kid 18:54:25 i'm so confused. i failed electronics in high school. 18:54:35 tenzin hehehe 18:54:37 you can try it again 18:54:38 ;) 18:54:40 how old are you ¨? 18:54:46 23 18:54:49 ok 18:54:54 number of the illuminatis! 18:54:54 tenzin: you are as old as me, you can do it :P 18:54:56 * pavlovskii has been up since 0830 to buy a resident's permit for his car 18:55:03 lynx: shush! 18:55:03 skidoo 18:55:07 pavlovskii : i have been up since 7:00 ! 18:55:18 i am tougher than you 18:55:23 pm ;p 18:55:23 lynx they are too old ;) heehe 18:55:28 i've been up since 7am too.. and it's almost noon now 18:55:29 bah 18:55:30 I have been up since 05:00! 18:55:37 eks : anyone asked you? 18:55:42 lynx: anyone asked you? 18:55:46 lynx: aargh, you are a German who goes to school at 0800 18:55:52 pavlovskii : ja :) 18:55:57 eks: yeah, but it's like lunchtime where you are :p 18:55:59 eks : my big ego. 18:56:07 pavlovskii: actually it's 20:55.. 18:56:20 lynx: eheh 18:56:32 IRIX owns everything 18:56:33 bah 18:56:36 hmm 18:56:39 everything else is crap 18:56:41 lynx hehe 18:56:41 Gentoo ownz Linux 18:56:51 lynx is funny 18:56:59 am i? 18:57:01 geist: is he? 18:57:06 bah. 18:57:13 lynx: are you? 18:57:19 lynx you are ;) 18:57:20 heheehe 18:57:20 :P 18:57:33 we like you Lynx 18:57:36 enough of that chilish behavior. 18:57:41 heeehe 18:57:41 * eks gives a chocolate cookie to lynx 18:57:45 HRMPF 18:57:46 eks I agree with you 18:57:47 :P 18:58:07 * lynx accepts it appreciatently 18:58:10 uhh 18:58:15 appreciatly ? 18:58:16 EtherNet-: you agree too easily, we should fight someday 18:58:24 appreciatentily ? 18:58:24 eks hehehe 18:58:29 * eks takes his glove and slap EtherNet-, "I challenge you to a duel" 18:58:30 when you want ;) 18:58:45 lynx: appreciatively 18:58:47 Im ready to fight every time 18:58:53 and I'll lose easily 18:58:56 eks : thanks 18:59:00 EtherNet-: eheh 18:59:01 appreciatively!!! 18:59:04 HEUREKA! 18:59:09 you're too old for me ;) 18:59:14 hrm.. no 'h' in eureka.. AFAIK.. 18:59:33 * eks suddenly feels _too_ old.. 18:59:50 I wish I was 14 in high school once again... life was simpler :p 18:59:52 eks : you stupid frenchmen _swallow_ the _h_ too easily 19:00:05 eks : nah 19:00:44 eks : girls, tits, puberty ... pimples ... parents ... less money than now ... bad computer hardware ... no good pr0n 19:00:44 ^^ 19:00:57 lynx eheheheehe 19:01:02 lynx: you have tits?! 19:01:07 you're touched by a cocodrile 19:01:08 hehehe 19:01:10 pavlovskii: didn't you know? 19:01:16 wow 19:01:25 you wanna see my titties? 19:01:32 lynx is the walking man with tits... he made the news .. 19:01:35 urm 19:01:40 cmon guys 19:01:43 lets grow up 19:01:47 eks heheeheheehehehee 19:01:49 k dad. 19:01:50 geist: ok ok.. agreed 19:02:02 eks : feel older now? 19:02:09 geist: what about realtime scheduling in a nanokernel? 19:02:19 what about an attokernel? 19:02:29 atto? 19:02:37 really really small 19:02:43 here's the source code: 19:02:45 JMP $ 19:02:47 geist: which method would you use to achieve realtime? PIT reprogramming per schedule? 19:02:50 wow 19:02:56 pavlovskii : but it is not optimized :/ 19:03:06 pavlovskii : it should run faster with "jmp short $" 19:03:14 lynx: aha, clever 19:03:18 here's my picokerneL 19:03:20 eks: uh, that doesn't really have a lot to do with it 19:03:24 for (;;) ; 19:03:26 pavlovskii: actually, you would have less power consumption using "cli halt", and the code would be as big ;) 19:03:35 pavlovskii lol 19:03:50 --- join: Stalky (~cms@ool-4352b4ce.dyn.optonline.net) joined #osdev 19:04:05 cli ? 19:04:14 what about leaving the machine turned off? 19:04:19 * Stalky stops servicing interrupts 19:04:26 or not having a computer at all? that would be really efficient 19:04:27 geist: how would you approach realtime then if the actual processes can't be scheduled on variable boundaries? 19:04:30 ja 19:04:32 ok 19:04:34 bah, I'm going to bed 19:04:41 gn 19:04:42 eks: you dont 19:04:44 go, pavlovskii , go 19:04:44 nite 19:04:49 gngngngnngngnngn 19:04:53 geist: ? 19:04:54 --- quit: pavlovskii () 19:05:04 eks: but remember, in a real system the number of rescheds that happen as a result of a timer going off is pretty low 19:05:25 eks: most of the time the process explicitly yields in some way (blocking on some IO or locking primitive) 19:05:45 most threads are IO bound in a modern system 19:06:01 geist: if you think about live video stream in realtime with filters and output, like let's say a tv filter for a channel, how would you do it? 19:06:07 sometimes i think my life is IO bound 19:06:24 eks: well, I'd make sure there's enough cpu to get it done 19:06:54 geist: what if you could get the same job done with less cpu if the algo used were more researched? 19:06:58 just do it, grab a frame, process it 19:07:03 tenzin : wasn` it created that way? simple i/o ? 19:07:11 eks: I'd see if it's worth the time doing the research 19:07:19 I assume the project has a timetable and limited resources 19:07:33 seeing how ppl invest in cpu speed and it becomes so cheap you would do like microsoft I guess :( 19:08:04 no, that's the way the real world works 19:08:13 rl sucks 19:08:16 speed is most of the time just a portion of the whole picture 19:08:17 irc rulez ;) 19:08:35 lots of coders get stuck into the 'make everything fast' mode of thinking 19:08:40 it's all a balancing act 19:08:45 eks Im using the IRC since I had 8 years old... I think 19:08:47 Im crazy hehe 19:08:57 lots of times on real time systems you do have to concern yourself with being efficient though 19:09:10 but what you really concern yourself with is being deterministic 19:09:13 i write notes to myself at the top of my to do lists "Make it work first" 19:09:15 hrm, you sound more like a buddhist monastery than a hacker... 19:09:28 hehehe 19:10:24 EtherNet-: nah, not crazy, ppl boosting their cars, lowering their suspensions, installing very loud stereo systems just to run around in circle around a park are crazy 19:10:33 eks: first become one with yourself. then become one with the code. and then one with infinitity. and then maybe you'll come back as a compiler. 19:10:39 * tenzin nods wisely 19:10:47 tenzin: ehehe 19:10:55 wise words.. 19:11:18 eks : crazy? 19:11:21 eks eheeh 19:11:24 you're right 19:12:07 lynx: yeah.. like when you talk to your empty can of b33r.. "you won't be alone for long darlin'" 19:12:49 I've to go now, I'll come back 19:12:52 good lucl 19:12:52 good luck 19:12:53 --- quit: EtherNet- () 19:12:54 eks : those guys are not crazy 19:12:54 gn EtherNet 19:13:06 eks : they are just full of shit 19:13:07 lynx: right.. they got no goal in life.. 19:13:09 --- join: Kurt (~kmw@gc-nas-01-s204.cinergycom.net) joined #osdev 19:13:13 wb Kurt 19:13:32 eks : i dislike them 19:13:41 eks : they pose way too much 19:13:46 hey 19:13:48 what? 19:13:50 porn girls? 19:13:59 pr0n goats 19:14:06 Kurt: you surf too much on the net 19:14:10 heh 19:14:23 no, actually 19:14:33 I go to too many Drum & Bugle Corps shows 19:14:43 eheh 19:14:50 you should send me a tape of one of those show someday 19:15:17 just go see one 19:15:19 where do you live? 19:15:43 gah.. /me pukes at the (not so anymore) new sf interface 19:15:51 Kurt: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada 19:15:57 hrm 19:16:03 there're usually a couple shows each year 19:16:05 hrm 19:16:06 well 19:16:07 actually 19:16:11 --- join: ChillySpy (vircuser@ppp221.ppp6.cleveland.nccw.net) joined #osdev 19:16:16 Manitoba's on the western end of Canada, right? 19:16:39 center of it.. 19:16:44 right in the middle of nowhere.. 19:16:55 oh, yeah 19:16:56 n/m 19:17:08 there aren't any shows within reasonable driving distance 19:20:46 considering I'm on foot.. ;) 19:22:26 can anybody tell me why the 2.4.18 kernel hasn't been patched yet for the KM133 and KL133 support? 19:22:32 that's like.. lame.. 19:22:44 --- join: ChillySpy2 (ChillySpy@ppp221.ppp6.cleveland.nccw.net) joined #osdev 19:22:58 can't even use text mode properly with the "stable" kernel on those chipsets 19:23:20 --- quit: ChillySpy (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement))) 19:23:32 --- nick: ChillySpy2 -> Chillyspy 19:23:38 what does seizeof in malloc mean ? 19:23:46 malloc(seizeof(blah)) ? 19:23:56 do you mean sizeof? 19:24:01 sizeof() returns the number of bytes a structure or variable requires 19:24:03 it returns the size of that particular data type 19:24:06 in bytes 19:24:12 malloc will allocate the number of bytes specified 19:24:23 thus enough to store the variable/structure 19:24:27 ok 19:24:30 thanks :) 19:31:08 --- quit: Chillyspy () 19:31:17 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-175-61.cg.shawcable.net) joined #osdev 19:34:48 --- quit: futhin (Client Quit) 19:49:07 --- join: tirloni (gpt@neutron.tirloni.org) joined #osdev 19:54:08 --- quit: witten ("bye") 19:54:23 hey 19:56:30 --- nick: geist -> geist-tohome 19:58:42 --- quit: Kurt ("Connection reset by beer") 19:59:31 hi 19:59:39 --- join: alphakiller (fernando@200227137064-dial-user-UOL.acessonet.com.br) joined #osdev 20:00:18 hello 20:03:48 --- quit: tirloni ("Reconnecting") 20:07:17 hey alphakiller 20:07:22 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 20:07:40 how are you eks ? 20:07:51 not too bad, searching for tools to play with under gentoo 20:08:28 hmm 20:08:38 I´m debugging my multi-threading 20:08:41 lynx: what genre did you say Funkst÷rung was? 20:14:49 --- join: tirloni (gpt@neutron.tirloni.org) joined #osdev 20:20:34 --- quit: tirloni ("Remember the... the... uhh.....") 20:26:27 woah 20:27:32 97000 netfilter lines in syslog and its 15meg 20:27:42 just in a few hours 20:31:14 --- join: |\|othing (LESLES@pcp01518417pcs.reding01.pa.comcast.net) joined #osdev 20:37:31 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 20:38:59 bye 20:39:04 --- part: alphakiller left #osdev 20:39:27 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust153.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #osdev 20:41:31 hi 20:42:17 anyone know much or have links to info on stack based multitasking 20:43:34 like, push context, switch sp, pop context? 20:43:43 yes 20:44:01 what about it? 20:44:51 well the actual pushing and poping of the context 20:45:20 ummm... 20:45:37 like does it have to be the same function? 20:45:54 well, it's a *switch* 20:46:05 you call the function on one thread, but return on another 20:46:16 some time later, you call it on the other, and return again on the first 20:46:22 trans: normally the "function" is the irq handler.. 20:46:44 well, there's lots of non-irq things that can trigger a switch 20:46:44 because if i were to push a context i would have to avoid trapping the return address 20:46:59 cooperative is the way to start 20:47:10 don't go to irqs 'til you understand how that works 20:47:26 that is, have a bunch of threads, each of which calls a yield function when busy 20:47:29 or can sleep 20:47:38 task switching only happens at controlled points that way 20:47:53 you don't have to worry about protecting critical areas 20:47:59 and all the other fun stuff that goes on 20:48:15 well there will be a function that switches the context 20:48:26 thats all it does, the scheduler calls it 20:48:52 that's how i'd do it 20:49:03 an asm routine that takes a stack pointer as a parameter 20:49:32 pushes all the registers onto the stack, saves the current stack pointer some place, loads the parameter into the stack pointer, pops all the registers, returns the saved prior stack pointer 20:49:55 well i was kinda hoping to have the ability to save a context without having to switch 20:49:58 the your c/c++/jni/whatever code uses that to do the actual context switching 20:50:09 well, you can 20:50:13 but that's not really too useful 20:50:19 because when you restore the context 20:50:23 you'll be back there again 20:50:34 it would be if one needed to suspend the os 20:50:52 hmm 20:51:06 the "context" you'd need to save in that case is much bigger 20:51:14 i'm not new to this, just an idiot 20:51:20 it's not just the execution state of the thread, then, it's the entire execution environment 20:51:32 all the os internals, etc. 20:51:54 well, let me make sure i understand 20:52:01 yes but the context woulld be saved in the process 20:52:12 if you want to save context and continue execution, it is to be able to undo what has happened since, yes? 20:52:33 if it's just to put something to sleep, you want to switch 20:52:41 so that when you switch back, you'll resume where you left off 20:53:17 if you save and continue on the same thread, when you resume where you left off, you'll be executing code again which already executed once 20:53:21 you'll go back in time, as it were 20:53:53 yes and that is the problem i am trying to figure out 20:54:42 ok 20:55:11 an easy approach is to copy everything that the os (or whatever you're suspending) can modify 20:55:20 you need much more than the cpu context 20:56:01 you need the entire stack, the read/write part of the address space, and some transactional interface with any software outside of what's being suspended which it talks to 20:56:02 yes but this function would be called during that process which is performed by a higher level function 20:56:27 what do you mean "higher level"? 20:56:30 like, on the stack? 20:56:42 or conceptually 20:56:50 a function that calls other functions 20:57:43 the other functions performing lower level actons and the high level function coordinating them 20:58:15 --- quit: eks ("Gentoo - Linux done right") 21:00:51 hello? 21:01:52 sorry 21:01:54 got distracted 21:02:00 oh 21:02:31 so, yeah 21:02:38 what if i pushed everything and then moved the return address up 21:02:43 complete state save & restore != stack based multi-tasking 21:03:24 saving to and loading from a static context block is pretty straightforward 21:03:24 and then the restore the state by moving the new return address to the place the old one was 21:03:32 but there are all the other complications 21:03:59 it's not something that languages like c are too good at 21:04:15 it would be in asm anyways 21:04:23 well, same thing 21:04:26 i'm sorry 21:04:30 managing the complexities yourself is what's hard 21:04:47 perhaps i haven't explained myself properly 21:04:53 could be 21:05:22 what is the ultimate result you want? 21:05:24 all i am looking for is how to write a seperate function that actually makes a switch but i want to have one save and one restore 21:05:39 the scheduler is seperate from this function 21:05:42 i was misled by asking about task based switching 21:05:44 i'm sorry 21:05:48 *that* is easy enough 21:05:51 but it's different 21:05:57 the scheduler would call this function 21:06:23 hmm 21:06:39 but it amounts to the same thing, in a way 21:06:51 when you say "save the context", *which* context do you mean? 21:07:04 the currently executing one? 21:07:13 that context is, at that moment, executing the saver function 21:07:43 correct 21:07:48 so, when it is restored, it is still in the saver function 21:07:56 getting ready to return 21:07:57 exactly 21:08:23 well, then: 21:08:45 so i either do a return address hack or i make it into one fucnction while loosing a bit of leverage 21:09:25 _save: mov saved_eax, eax; pop eax; push eax; move saved_eip, eax; mov saved_esp, esp; move saved_the_rest, the_rest; ret 21:09:27 more or less 21:09:53 where saved_etc will usually by an offset off a pointer to a structure 21:10:36 but, i don't see what that info will get you 21:10:46 cuz, when it returns, it will pop the return address 21:10:51 and that stack area will be reused 21:10:59 you can't just restore esp and ret again 21:11:04 the stack won't have the right stuff on it 21:11:33 it would actually "push" the data to a reserved data area 21:12:44 you will wind up writing a single switch routine 21:12:53 push state, switch stack pointer, pop state, return 21:12:55 this is my prediction 21:13:02 exactly 21:13:29 that's what i said a screen ago, no 21:13:30 then that is called by the scheduler according to the scheduling algorithm used 21:13:36 * Stalky goes for more magic cookies 21:13:45 --- join: puppy (puppy@roc-66-67-55-246.rochester.rr.com) joined #osdev 21:15:28 not exactly 21:15:49 there is still the problem of the return address 21:16:00 no, not at all 21:16:10 you have 2 functions, say 21:16:15 sched and switch 21:16:20 sched calls switch 21:16:27 the return address to sched is on the stack 21:16:35 switch pushes the rest of the registers 21:16:45 --- part: puppy left #osdev 21:16:46 saves esp and loads a new one 21:16:49 pops the registers 21:16:51 and returns 21:16:59 it returns into sched again, but on a different thread 21:17:14 subsequently, sched calls switch again 21:17:21 this time with the esp that was saved the first time 21:17:33 switch saves everything, loads the previously saved esp 21:17:37 pops the regs, returns 21:17:39 yes but it returns from the save and not the restore 21:18:01 well, there are not 2 operations with this approach 21:18:12 there is "stop being thread A and start being thread B" 21:18:33 but i am trying to find a way to make it 2 funcs 21:18:35 you have to be careful when you create a new thread 21:18:43 to create it with the stack from that switch expects 21:19:03 you will wind up writing a single switch routine 21:19:03 push state, switch stack pointer, pop state, return 21:19:03 this is my prediction 21:19:03 exactly 21:20:37 in other words, just make one func? 21:20:47 yes 21:21:01 single = one 21:21:08 ok thank you very much 21:21:24 good luck! 21:21:32 sorry for my stupidity and inability to communicate 21:21:38 no worries 21:21:42 i'm all stoned and shit anyway 21:21:44 it's probably me 21:22:26 =) 21:23:14 <|\|othing> what?? 21:23:18 <|\|othing> you boys are smoking pot here?? 21:23:44 not so loud, nothing! 21:23:58 you'll get them paranoid 21:23:58 * Stalky doesn't smoke anymore 21:24:03 my lungs couldn't take it 21:24:09 i make great cookies & fudge tho 21:24:39 heh 21:24:49 i can't imagine being more paranoid 21:24:52 i'd implode or something 21:25:23 <|\|othing> i'm all stoned and shit anyway 21:25:35 yes 21:25:36 i am 21:25:39 but not from smoking 21:26:06 * Stalky made some great cookies 21:26:08 and then ate them 21:26:21 what kind a ratio do you use? 21:26:40 butter to weed? 21:26:48 <|\|othing> lol 21:27:06 or do you use the canabutter method? 21:28:36 in all my attempts i end up severly burning the butter and it ends up seperating 21:28:58 =( 21:29:05 <|\|othing> heh 21:29:10 <|\|othing> are you some kind of pothead, trans? :P 21:29:25 i live in BC 21:29:30 need i say more? 21:31:20 <|\|othing> er 21:31:23 <|\|othing> British Columbia? 21:31:29 yuppers 21:34:44 how much is a stick? 21:35:02 <|\|othing> $23 21:35:35 hehe 21:39:12 --- join: Kurt (~kmw@gc-nas-01-s131.cinergycom.net) joined #osdev 22:02:31 --- join: Chillyspy (ChillySpy@ppp109.ppp3.cleveland.nccw.net) joined #osdev 22:03:06 does anyone konw what TSS stands for? 22:05:03 <|\|othing> Task State Segment 22:05:44 kewl 22:06:02 <|\|othing> ;/ 22:06:06 * |\|othing puts a blanket around Chillyspy 22:06:11 <|\|othing> i hope you get warmer soon 22:06:11 <|\|othing> ;/ 22:06:48 * Kurt heads over to #asshoppers 22:07:44 hehe... TSS used to mean Time Sharing System... just checking 22:10:26 |\|othing - arnt you nothing? but anyway... how does a multiprocessor machine work... how does CPU 1 control CPU 2 or send it directions? 22:11:26 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again") 22:13:17 |\|othing ???? 22:16:44 --- quit: Chillyspy () 22:20:10 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:27:25 --- nick: |\|othing -> n_ 22:28:05 --- join: trans (~trans@a2a02274.intergate.bconnected.net) joined #osdev 22:28:07 --- nick: geist-tohome -> geist 22:29:02 how often is a non-assembly file required to enable/disable ints? 22:29:40 --- join: zinten (xtofu@p217-tnt2.mel.ihug.com.au) joined #osdev 22:29:51 --- quit: tenzin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 22:29:56 lots probably 22:29:57 if you have a reentrant system 22:30:08 reentrant? 22:30:59 if the cpu can take an interrupt from inside the kernel 22:31:06 better worded: 22:31:13 take interrupts when inside the kernel 22:31:38 if it's reentrant, you'll have to disable interrupts and reenable them from time to time to keep certain stuff atomic 22:31:49 happens quite a bit in newos 22:31:57 --- nick: zinten -> tenzin 22:32:30 turning off ints effectively disables preemption 22:33:15 ok thanks 22:33:34 but anyway, why do you ask? 22:34:30 --- quit: Kurt ("Connection reset by fear") 22:34:47 wondering if i should or shouldn't have a C function to do it 22:35:15 --- join: geist99 (~geist@209-162-48-135.thegrid.net) joined #osdev 22:36:08 just do one. if you dont use it then great 22:36:22 you will want to have it truen the last state of the interrupt though 22:36:25 that's very useful 22:36:30 you'll see: 22:36:37 state = int_disable_interrupts(); 22:36:43 int_restore_interrupts(state); 22:36:46 a lot in newos 22:36:59 what does it return? 22:37:01 --- nick: geist -> geist2 22:37:04 --- nick: geist99 -> geist 22:37:32 it returns a flag containing the bits in the status register 22:37:34 or the bit actually 22:37:48 so restore can basically or the flag back with the status register 22:38:03 oh i see 22:38:17 that's all sti and cli do 22:38:24 you can turn ints on and off in other ways 22:38:42 but in newos the 'state' is really opaque 22:38:50 you're not supposed to look at that flag 22:39:01 because on other arches it could contain more data 22:39:26 for example, it could contain the interrupt level on arches that support that 22:40:22 cool 22:41:22 so you can't just check for non-zero in the saved state to see if the ints were off or something like that 22:42:02 * geist can shut up now 22:42:23 is it saved for each process/thread? 22:42:38 hmm? 22:42:39 like multiple times 22:42:52 the state 22:43:04 but the state of the cpu isn't attached to any one process 22:43:08 or thread 22:43:37 so there is just one variabel "state" that holds that data? 22:43:45 no no. sorry I confused you 22:43:48 here it is 22:43:54 int state = int_disable_interrupts(); 22:43:58 not hard to do 22:43:59 int_restore_interrupts(state); 22:44:15 you just save the state for when you want to restore the ints back to where it was before 22:44:24 oh 22:44:32 ok 23:01:48 --- join: DorkPunk (l33t3sth4x@207-173-195-60.academicplanet.com) joined #osdev 23:01:51 Hello. 23:02:03 Hey dork. 23:02:26 What's up, n_? 23:05:04 Is anybody here good with inline assembly and gcc? 23:09:51 Hello? 23:10:14 :-( 23:10:48 hi! 23:11:35 trans - Do you know how to properly ljmp or lcall a tss descriptor, in the gdt? 23:11:40 I've set up the tss already, and set the tr... 23:11:49 I've even set the tss descriptor in the gdt... 23:12:01 I just don't know how to switch to it. 23:12:19 don't you jump to the address of the TSS? 23:12:30 hold on 23:12:44 Really? 23:15:16 k got it 23:15:54 jmp/call that refers to a TSS descriptor 23:16:02 jmp/call that refers to a task gate 23:16:37 an interrupt vector to a task gate in the IDT 23:16:55 or an iret with the NT flag set 23:16:59 I would like to make a jmp/call that refers to a tss descriptor... 23:17:17 would you? 23:18:01 http://my.tele2.ee/mtx/i386/manual.htm 23:18:40 66.28.71.21:27045 <-- cs server i'm playing on, if anyone cares :) 23:18:53 ooooo 23:19:53 I just can't figure out the syntax to jmp/call a tss descriptor... 23:21:08 jump to the address of the descriptor? 23:21:33 n_: damn you and your custom maps! 23:22:04 trans - Do you know the syntax, for inline assembly using gcc, to jump to the address of a descriptor? 23:22:45 hmmm ljmp $addr?? 23:22:57 I've tried several things already... 23:23:12 try looking up AT&T asm 23:23:16 __asm__ ( "ljmp ( %0 ) :: "a" ( &descr ) ); 23:23:19 That didn't work... 23:23:35 Didn't compile. 23:24:41 --- quit: Stalky ("http://www.echosproject.org") 23:33:34 sorry i don't know 23:33:46 n_: who are you? 23:59:59 --- log: ended osdev/02.06.21