00:00:00 --- log: started osdev/02.10.21 00:01:07 robert? 00:01:41 :P 00:01:45 Just wondering... 00:03:19 hmm.. 00:03:21 just a sec 00:03:47 the colour is PANTONE E 3-9 CVS 00:04:34 :ū 00:07:19 * mur thinks that programmers aven't been such skilled if there actually is a command "redraw" in drawing programme 00:07:49 remind me in 10 minutes to go eat 00:11:14 --- join: corsairk8 (~Stealthy@pc-62-31-1-150-cr.blueyonder.co.uk) joined #osdev 00:20:10 mur: go eat. 00:20:14 Hi corsairk8. 00:20:37 robert. 00:20:44 long day toady`? 00:20:47 Well... 00:21:00 9.55 to 16.35, but a long brake between those lessons. 00:22:10 robert, you dind't remind me 00:22:23 09:22 < Robert> mur: go eat. 00:22:26 Sure I did. 00:22:37 2 minutes late, but I wasn't here 09:10 :) 00:22:40 er 00:22:45 09:20 00:22:52 no i didn't got any messages 00:23:12 Sure you did. 00:23:23 09:10 < mur> remind me in 10 minutes to go eat 00:23:23 09:13 -!- corsairk8 [~Stealthy@pc-62-31-1-150-cr.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #osdev 00:23:27 09:22 < Robert> mur: go eat. 00:23:41 that was late already 00:23:50 when do you leave to school 00:23:55 + mins from now? 00:24:46 bah 00:24:48 bahgoing neat 00:24:52 oging eat 00:25:14 cya later 00:27:21 School 00:27:21 Bye 00:31:12 mur 00:31:14 Robert 00:34:33 hey miro 00:34:35 Hoi, Robert! 00:48:16 --- quit: mur (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 00:57:35 --- join: mur (~mur@216.105.160.17) joined #osdev 00:57:58 grrr.. 00:58:04 * mur murrrrRRR! 00:58:25 tell me some active chat channel 00:59:15 :) 01:00:05 mur mur mur mur 01:03:36 miromiromiro 01:04:06 oh dear you're in an endless loop! 01:05:00 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 01:05:13 lol 01:06:48 --- quit: MBit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 01:10:15 * mur reboots miro 01:11:32 aaah 01:12:29 --- quit: mur ("[CGI:IRC 0.4] - Pure HTTP chat from www.mouselike.org [EOF]") 01:15:19 --- join: mur (~mur@216.105.160.17) joined #osdev 01:16:00 while (loop = true) { dothis(); loop = flase } \ #define flase true // fixing typos in other headers 01:23:48 miro, suppy? 01:44:07 Hoi, Rico! 01:44:11 Ik ben...at school :P 01:44:23 And hi to you too, little mur. 01:49:25 HELLO large robert 01:50:15 hello poos 01:50:46 mir0! 01:50:50 miro: :P 01:51:21 mrio, hello mr. hammer 01:52:10 UR so hot in those dirty underwear, miro !!11 01:52:20 lol 01:52:26 * Robert runs. 01:52:34 im at work 01:52:37 with pants on 01:52:52 Really? 01:52:55 I'm at school, naked. 01:53:01 Really? 01:53:07 really. 01:53:11 Yeah. 01:53:16 I mean, clothes are just expensive. 01:53:22 why arn't you under my desk naked? 01:53:25 And totally unnessecary at 0C. 01:53:34 miro: Because you're hiding in .de 01:53:38 pfff 01:53:41 excuses 01:53:48 yes, german schwein! 01:53:49 No, sir. 01:54:10 du bist hiding unter der desk, miro! 01:54:41 Heh. 01:54:42 lol 01:54:58 * miro humps Robert & mur 01:55:09 && is and operator 01:55:16 & is bitwise and 01:55:20 miro: Thanks, sir. 01:56:31 miro where do you work? 01:56:51 At the whore house. 01:57:00 pants on? 01:57:12 oh door man you robery 01:57:13 t 01:57:38 xD 01:58:19 how ever.. 01:58:36 gah 01:58:42 --- quit: Zenton (Remote closed the connection) 01:58:47 im doing live pr0n shows 01:58:56 :P 01:59:25 miro you have 2 ps2 mouses on each others? 01:59:31 dirty you 01:59:48 "mouses" :P 02:00:52 --- quit: do[done] (Remote closed the connection) 02:01:04 mice 02:02:44 robert do not interfere when i try to be vulgar so miro woudl understand too! 02:03:04 --- join: do (~green@194.85.84.244) joined #osdev 02:03:08 Heh. 02:04:57 bishes 02:05:21 der finnländer schweins sages miro! 02:05:33 varum mittagen then 02:05:43 o_O 02:05:54 maybe i shoudl become german book author :D 02:06:29 ich ben überleet 02:06:38 and rats! 02:06:58 Ja, natürlich. 02:07:04 du bist ein furz 02:07:12 sausage? 02:07:22 bratwurst 02:07:29 hm.. oh it was wurst not furz 02:07:33 --- quit: do (Remote closed the connection) 02:07:59 lol 02:08:25 * mur reduces miros work efforts 100% :) 02:08:29 Heh. 02:10:01 nooooooooooooooo 02:11:37 miro wast bist du arbeit? 02:11:52 du deutch iust sehr gutes 02:14:03 stimmt, robert 02:14:43 :) 02:15:32 ich ben ein deutch professor! 02:15:53 SCHNAUZE JETZT IHR PENNER :) 02:16:53 uh? 02:17:01 dont talk austrian! 02:17:06 lol 02:17:33 penner = little coins? 02:17:35 penner = little coins? 02:17:38 ihr = mine? 02:17:46 schnauze = snooze? 02:17:52 jetzt = typo? 02:18:02 not telling you bish 02:19:01 nooo 02:19:10 * mur hides in drawer 02:19:50 Got a class now, bbl 02:28:06 --- join: do (~green@194.85.84.244) joined #osdev 02:35:08 --- join: trans (~trans@fatwire-201-207.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 02:39:11 --- quit: do ("for fucking my hard drive !") 02:48:20 --- join: MBit (~HansHeim@pD955A9C9.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 02:52:03 boo! mbit 03:11:48 --- join: stormbind_ (~stormbind@pD9519FC0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 03:11:55 --- quit: stormbind (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 03:15:25 --- quit: mur ("[CGI:IRC 0.4] - Pure HTTP chat from www.mouselike.org [EOF]") 03:30:06 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:21:24 --- join: gianluca (~kernel@ppp-236-132.28-151.libero.it) joined #osdev 04:21:27 hi there 04:32:29 --- join: eks (~eks@h24-82-197-140.wp.shawcable.net) joined #osdev 04:42:38 --- join: LNN (~echo@h166n2fls34o867.telia.com) joined #osdev 04:42:47 tada. 04:52:04 (c) LNN 1984-2002 04:52:17 mycke pra 04:52:20 läget? 04:52:33 Finfint. 04:52:35 --- join: trans (~trans@fatwire-201-207.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 04:56:26 LNN: Lyckades få en multimeter gratis från skolan :D 04:56:44 Dock fungerar inte amperemetern i den. 04:56:56 ah, kej 04:57:07 har fått låna hem en multimeter från högerskolan 04:57:17 --- join: Kurt (~kmw@gc-nas-01-s93.cinergycom.net) joined #osdev 04:57:21 har lektioner där på fredagar 05:01:29 Jag skall få ett oscilloskop också :) 05:01:36 Vad går du för kurs på den skolan då? 05:04:43 tja, elektronik B (lokal kurs) 05:05:25 Okej. 05:05:47 Vi tvingas hålla på med glödlampor och batterier :-( 05:05:51 Du går i trean, va? 05:07:04 * Robert har en liten fråga om elektronik. 05:07:29 Det är en liten IR-detektor här, som använder en fotodiod. Kan jag ersätta den med en fototransistor? (De är billigare :) 05:08:32 Hmmmz. 05:08:50 Verkar som om de förra utvecklar en viss ström på egen hand... 05:09:00 --- quit: Kurt ("Connection reset by fear") 05:27:20 hrm 05:27:46 fototransistor eller ir-detektor :\ 05:27:50 trodde det var samma sak 05:27:51 --- join: trash (~trash@dial-2512.zgora.dialog.net.pl) joined #osdev 05:28:12 men en transistor kan ju ge mer ström.. 05:28:44 beror ju bara på basen, satt det borde ju funka till en viss del. vet inte hur spänningsfallet är 05:29:02 antagligen betydligt mindre än för en diod 05:43:49 Dial a number. Ask: "May I speak to Kevin? Oh, wrong number? Could you please tell him the pizza is ready?" Hang up. 05:44:13 Dial the same number again. Ask: "May I speak to Kevin? Oh, wrong number? Could you please tell him John called?" Hang up. 05:44:28 repeat 10 time with slightly different messages each time 05:44:51 On the eleventh: "Hello, this is Kevin. Did I get any messages?" 05:45:05 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 05:47:47 lnn :) 05:48:12 in case someone is bored ;) 05:48:34 i was ;) 05:55:05 --- quit: eks ("cyall from work") 06:00:36 --- quit: eirikn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 06:02:20 --- join: eirikn (~eirik@a217-118-46-163.bluecom.no) joined #osdev 06:13:36 --- quit: file (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 06:20:10 --- join: revanthn (revanthn@202.9.183.247) joined #osdev 06:22:11 hi guys 06:23:25 --- join: tirloni (gpt@aline.bs2.com.br) joined #osdev 06:32:37 --- quit: stormbind_ ("Fremdwörter sind ubiquitär") 06:35:31 --- join: do (~green@194.85.84.244) joined #osdev 06:36:29 bye people 06:37:52 --- part: gianluca left #osdev 06:41:29 --- quit: revanthn () 06:44:50 --- join: fluff (~fluf@cp2947-a.dbsch1.nb.home.nl) joined #osdev 06:44:51 hi all 06:47:22 --- join: revanthn (revanthn@202.9.183.247) joined #osdev 06:55:13 --- quit: revanthn ("cya later") 06:57:02 --- join: lynx (~root@pD9E63B5C.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 06:57:18 huhu 06:57:23 schnauze 06:57:27 :) 06:57:51 ach kacke 06:57:54 --- join: DANGER (DANGER@cp67847-a.dbsch1.nb.home.nl) joined #osdev 06:57:55 gandi antwortet mir nicht 06:57:58 lol 06:58:04 gandi ist tot 06:58:10 was? 06:58:17 ich meine gandi.net 06:58:32 hah 06:58:48 --- quit: DANGER ("..................................................... <- Count the DOTS!") 06:58:52 "gandi ist tot" :P 06:58:55 ... 06:59:09 53 dots. 06:59:20 miro : der domain-status service sagt noch nichteinmal, dass ich etwas registriert haette 06:59:31 HAHA 06:59:31 miro : kann man bei dir ne domain kaufen? .org? 06:59:39 ja 06:59:45 wieviel? 07:00:12 €10/year, pleaaase :) 07:00:16 5 euro 07:00:23 pro jahre? 07:00:24 pro monat? 07:00:29 ja!? 07:00:34 ja was? 07:00:39 ja pro monat 07:00:42 bah. 07:00:48 zuviel für mcih :( 07:00:54 pfff 07:01:03 naja 07:01:04 ich kann nur 12e pro jahr zalen 07:01:06 ich werde gehen 07:01:09 zalen 07:01:13 schüss 07:01:13 bye lnn gammler 07:01:16 --- quit: LNN ("I'm so awfully lazy I haven't even provided a _default_ quit message.") 07:01:33 lynx: da kann ich nix machen 07:01:38 :( 07:01:43 mit hosting wenigstens? 07:01:43 * miro pets lynx 07:01:46 ja 07:01:59 was füer features? 07:03:21 was brauchst du? 07:03:34 was bekommt man denn für 5e? 07:03:52 20mb 07:04:04 +php, perl. etc 07:04:20 traffic? 07:04:37 500mb 07:04:47 hrm... 07:04:56 und org domain? 07:05:04 was damit? 07:05:21 dazu? 07:05:24 inklusive? 07:05:38 hrm 07:08:18 oink boink zoink... 07:08:32 yes ? 07:09:09 hulo! 07:09:13 oink : sup? 07:09:32 --- join: trans (~trans@fatwire-201-207.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 07:09:36 not much 07:10:23 you are all so fucking boring. 07:11:02 lynx: no but there are ppl who are working on stuff :D 07:13:09 miro : but not you. 07:13:29 pfff 07:13:58 i have stuff that i could show 07:14:23 hi all 07:14:30 hey fluff 07:14:34 miro : like what? 07:14:56 like oftc.net 07:15:00 like linuxsys.de 07:15:37 anybody in here allready made him self an OS ? 07:15:44 anyways 07:15:45 nobody 07:15:53 i need to get my train :D 07:15:55 bbiab 07:16:46 --- quit: miro ("Client Exiting") 07:17:40 fluff : most ppl here, depends on what you call an OS though :) 07:18:29 lynx i'm studying the linux os 07:18:38 lynx well i'm trying to :D 07:18:46 heh 07:19:08 lynx pretty hard to understand most things :) 07:20:46 fluff : well, there are sites that will help you more than reading linux´ sources 07:21:36 lynx yeah i know, i'm reading alot of them, and also reading books about OS'es 07:21:59 lynx but even that books are hard to follow now and then 07:22:00 :) 07:22:06 lynx but i won't give up :) 07:23:21 --- join: Javanx (~javanx@213.45.18.199) joined #osdev 07:29:10 good 07:35:23 --- quit: lynx ("BitchX-1.0c19 -- just do it.") 07:35:52 --- join: bono (~bono@host-ip20.8D.com) joined #osdev 07:36:38 hey air! how are your os / prog language coming along? 07:37:54 --- join: gianluca (~kernel@ppp-236-132.28-151.libero.it) joined #osdev 07:41:02 hi 07:49:53 linux is crap 07:50:01 shows what happens when you have a good implementation with no design 07:50:15 and what happens? 07:50:16 other systems however usually suffer from the opposite 07:50:21 you get linux of course ;) 07:51:06 my opinion anyway 07:51:11 what you don't like of it? 07:51:36 linux is too old and has too much legacy stuff 07:51:58 in terms of kernel design it is at least 10 years out of date 07:52:06 even windows nt has adapted a better system 07:52:13 what are you talking about? 07:52:26 i mean, which zone? 07:52:49 which zone? 07:53:03 well, im mostly thinking about the kernel layout 07:53:28 for example, linux even if you compile most things as modules is quite large 07:53:36 its still a monolithic design 07:53:44 it IS a monolithic design 07:53:52 because monolithic design is GOOD. 07:53:56 its GOOD is it? 07:54:04 yep IMO 07:54:05 i suppose thats a matter of opinion 07:54:12 hmm maybe 07:54:14 it may be faster, and easier 07:54:21 and this is GOOD :) 07:54:57 well, in favour of those you also forfeit extendability and flexability 07:55:14 tell me a good reason i should prefer microkernel to monolithic one 07:55:25 its much more memory effiecent 07:55:33 why? 07:55:34 you dont haev code/data loaded in memory for all sorts of devices you will never use 07:55:48 if all driver code is built into the kernel binary its all loaded into memory 07:56:18 yep 07:56:32 you can for example change your kernel radically without even recompiling the entire thing 07:56:41 you can use binary modules much more easier with pre-defined and agreed on interfaces 07:56:52 sounds like linux modules 07:56:53 even if you prefer source building modules, you dont have to rebuild your entire kernel 07:57:02 i know linux has support for modules, but most people who use them find it easier to not :) 07:57:05 its full of all sorts of problems 07:57:14 like? 07:57:15 like unresolved references, its not a very nice system, its more of an afterthought 07:57:23 like crap distributions? it's not a kernel problem ;) 07:57:29 sure, you can add file systems, even drivers using the "simple" file system 07:57:48 gianluca, distributions represent the majority use of linux 07:57:55 almost everyone who has used linux has at one point used a distribution 07:58:06 yes, but we're talking about kernel design, not about linux utilization 07:58:27 one thing i "hate" about linux is the fact it has no framebuffer support, and no windowing support 07:58:38 it HAS framebuffer support 07:58:42 if the kernel had a nice standardized framebuffer system, and a windowing system built on top of that it would be much better 07:58:53 why a windowing support in a kernel? 07:59:00 i agree with you about framebuffer 07:59:02 because its better 07:59:04 it's almost needed 07:59:04 corsairk8: look at XFree. 07:59:07 fine, you dont NEED windowing in a kernel 07:59:12 but framebuffer supprot you do 07:59:17 corsairk8: do you really want _THAT_ inside the linux kernel ? 07:59:22 yes i agree with you about framebuffer 07:59:29 it helps in, for example, 3d acceleration (mtrr) and video auto-detection and configuration 07:59:33 oink, not in linux 07:59:44 oink, but assumign linux was a proper modular system, it would be doable 08:00:00 you want a 10megs binary kernel? ;) 08:00:19 i also wish linux has a proper registry database and a user database rather than text files, having text files is of almost no use when you have several hudnred thousand users 08:00:29 gianluca: No! think about it, a microkernel means the kernel is TINY 08:00:41 gianluca: the modules have the majority of the code 08:00:41 microkernel means kernel DOES NOTHING 08:00:42 --- join: revanthn (revanthn@202.9.183.201) joined #osdev 08:01:00 microkernel means that for doing soemthing you need CONTEXT SWITCH 08:01:10 a microkernel is the minimal amuont of code needed to load, run and manage the execution of system tasks ("modules" or "drivers") 08:01:19 microkernel doesn't context switch 08:01:19 or loading from swap a kernel zone! 08:01:25 revanthn, yes it can 08:01:36 a microkernel is no good if you can only load one module 08:01:38 it can switch but itsn't compelled 08:01:47 rev: can use thread 08:01:49 a microkernel doesnt have to fine, i agree 08:01:53 --- quit: lar1 ("Download Gaim [http://gaim.sourceforge.net/]") 08:01:53 this discussion has nothign to do with that really 08:02:01 corsairk8: your approach was tested and was a failure. they call it 'microsoft windows'. 08:02:01 i am just explainign why linux sucks right now 08:02:13 corsair: but you still didn't gave no reason 08:02:26 if you want to write a simple video driver, or something that uses the video or windowing services, you need to use the ancient, deprachated and inflexible non-modular Xfree86 08:02:26 the idead behind microkernel is that to make it run over large distances 08:02:32 i gave many reasons gianluca 08:02:35 no 08:02:37 no one survived 08:02:48 in the start, linux worked because it wasnt terribly massive, a monolithic design was nice 08:02:52 what's the topics guys 08:03:03 so 08:03:14 but no modular designs have so many advantages in both portability, flexibility and reliability 08:03:21 linux IS modular 08:03:25 people will write crappy drivers for systems, you must accept that as fact 08:03:25 monolithic sucks specially in todays SMP world it can take it 08:03:38 linux is modular in code management not as a OS 08:03:41 gianluca, it is a monolithic kernel with modules added in as an afterthought 08:03:45 rev: if monolithic are reentrant they don't 08:03:53 corsair: yes. 08:04:03 kernel does thing. modules add drivers 08:04:28 corsairk8: the problem is, microkernel is usually _more_ complex than the 'monolitic' one. 08:04:40 trash: whats your point? 08:04:41 trash: i don't agree with you 08:04:42 corsairk8: portability is a myth. 08:04:43 trash: the problem is: microkernel is SLOW 08:04:57 we can give up speed for usuability 08:04:58 trash: yes its more complex, but in the long-term its MUCH more simpler 08:05:08 corsairk8: flexibility is a fact, but you usually do not need it. 08:05:09 trash: you can write code for one part of the system and not have to worry about any other part except for teh standards 08:05:15 in this high speed world speed is not a big issue 08:05:25 corsairk8: i'm explaining why microkernel is wrong idea. 08:05:29 trash: you never 100% require it, but it helps 08:05:33 okay then 08:05:38 gianluca: depends. 08:05:41 linux IS protable! 08:05:45 portable 08:05:51 and it does in a very nice way. 08:05:54 i suppose all the industry experts using microkernel or microkernel-derived designs are wrong 08:05:58 what exactly do you mean by portable 08:06:01 too bad for Microsoft and Sun 08:06:07 you suppose that microsoft is right? :) 08:06:09 corsairk8: just like in properly designed 'classic' kernel. 08:06:11 theyre Windows 2000, Windows XP and Solaris looked quite nice 08:06:20 gianluca: nobody is wrong or right 08:06:21 oh windows 2k, i love it ;) 08:06:23 SO STABLE! 08:06:26 gianluca: i am just judging theyre design concepts 08:06:32 gianluca: it is actually, on the kernel level 08:06:36 corsairk8: which ones? 08:06:40 yes, win2k demonstrate that microkernel are secure and stable... 08:06:52 QNX did that too 08:06:56 trying to invalidate my reasoning based on some preconceptions about Microsoft and stability is pointless 08:07:06 anything can be stable once enough time is spent debugging it, it doesnt mean teh design is bad 08:07:08 corsairk8: because neither windows or solaris are using microkrnel. 08:07:09 no no. just try windows 2000 and see 08:07:15 trash: they both use microkernels 08:07:25 solaris i doubt! 08:07:32 widnows 2000 is not a true microkernel 08:07:46 okay, fine, solaris and windows 2000 arent true microkernels 08:07:46 refer to Modern Operating Systems 2/e CAse Study Windows2000 08:07:53 but they are modular and flexible which linux lacks 08:08:03 revanthn: yes, but they had very specific purpose on mind. 08:08:03 corsairk8: nope. 08:08:05 QNX is a true microkernel 08:08:05 corsair: LINUX IS MODULAR! 08:08:16 gianluca:in what linux is modular 08:08:25 --- join: lar1 (~lar1@adsl-63-204-135-204.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #osdev 08:08:30 can you run the filesystem on someother computer in the same network 08:08:42 revanthn? 08:08:47 rev: this means modular? 08:09:03 corsairk8: you never did any driver development on these three, right? 08:09:09 gianluca: i am talking about modularity of process management you are talking about code management 08:09:16 corsairk8: ;-) 08:09:18 rev: yep 08:09:21 trans: not on solaris 08:09:48 modularity of process management? what do you mean ;) 08:10:05 what if some system process goes down does it self heal 08:10:17 corsairk8: the point is, under linux it's usually _way_ simpler. mainly because there were no 'enlightened one', that had a Great Idea like windows' IRPs, that complicates everything and brings no practical purpose. 08:10:20 advantages of microkernel 08:10:35 if one system process goes down it doesn't take the whole system down with it 08:10:43 trash: i know driver development for linux is easy when you just wanna build a /dev/null or /dev/random like thingy 08:10:44 there are no system processes 08:11:10 trash: linux module system has two main problems with me... (1) version incompatibility with both binary and source distribution, makes it very difficult to match modules to kernel versions 08:11:19 corsairk8: or ide, or sound card... 08:11:21 gianluca:check amoeba and paramecium at andrew's site 08:11:25 at least kernel thread. but they're not used in the right way imho 08:11:28 and (2) i cant remember 08:11:31 try and trace out the difference 08:11:31 corsairk8: and if you need something more exotic, you can always patch sources. 08:11:33 i know amoeba 08:11:44 amoeba it's another thing 08:11:49 they support true parallelism 08:11:53 exactly 08:11:54 corsairk8: it's not needed. you have source, so you don't need binary compatibility. 08:11:55 you can compare amoeba and mosix 08:12:01 but they're still 08:12:02 different thing 08:12:05 trash: you tell that to driver vendors 08:12:15 trash: no offence, but you dont speak on behalf of everyone who develops drivers 08:12:19 exactly you can't compare linux with a microkernel 08:12:27 compare linux with some other monolithic one 08:12:32 trash: saying you dont need binary drivers is just the reason alot of people are alienated from supporting linux 08:12:43 people literally avoid linux kernel-mode programming like the plague 08:12:47 rev, rev: we're talking about designes 08:12:58 corsairk8: i don't care about them. i don't need binary drivers, pretty much everyone i know does not, too. 08:12:59 and until now, no one gave a nice thing that make the microkernel design better 08:13:18 it works on message passing system 08:13:23 that's a good one 08:13:26 rev: i know 08:13:27 no 08:13:32 rev: it's pure OVERHEAD 08:13:39 in can be extended across over networks 08:13:47 trash: well, quite frankly, if i get a new piece of hardware i dont wanna sit around all day compiling it 08:13:48 and can be very much used in bonding 08:13:51 Mosix too 08:13:53 and SMP 08:13:59 corsairk8: well, under microsoft windows you have 'windows way of supporting', that is, binary drivers from everywhere. under unices, you have 'unix way of device support', that is, source lies in the kernel tree. 08:14:08 rev: you are trying to compare amoeba to linux? 08:14:08 pushing the limits of monolithic kernels won't solve the problem 08:14:13 no 08:14:14 amoeba it's not JUST a microkernel 08:14:21 i am comparing mono to micro 08:14:21 even if you do stick with the premise that people who use linux will use source-based drivers, you still have the fact that linux headers change so often 08:14:22 you can't run amoeba in one computer 08:14:32 NO! you're comparing amoeba to linux :p 08:14:34 there is no standardised hardware abstraction layer or interface to kernel routines 08:14:39 corsairk8: you probably already have proper driver compiled to module. 08:14:48 trash: huh? 08:14:54 i probably... 08:14:56 hmm 08:14:59 what does that mean? 08:15:24 gianluca:why do you think message passing systems's are not good 08:15:26 for the work 08:15:32 some people including me dont mind occaisonally compiling modules, but to have to worry about versions and to have to hack and edit the source depending on versions is a major annoyance 08:15:32 corsairk8: they do not change w/o major kernel number change. 08:15:34 because they add overhead 08:15:43 what kinda overhead 08:15:43 corsairk8: in theory, at least. 08:15:44 and quite frankly, alot of people dont have the technical or hardware knowledge to do that 08:15:47 do you think that passing a message is faster than doing a call? :) 08:15:50 programming or executing 08:15:56 executing 08:16:02 i mean 08:16:02 speed isn't the only thing right 08:16:09 yes 08:16:18 but this is won by monolithic. do you agree? 08:16:24 in the end, if you have to rebuild your entire kernel just to get a single module working, whats the point ni having a modular system in the first place? 08:16:24 corsairk8: you have one current kernel. modules are compiled with it. 08:16:28 if message passing system reducess the speed by 100Mhz it doesn't really matter 08:16:41 trans: not all modules work with every kernel, infact, most modules work with only a few kernels 08:16:42 uh? 08:16:51 corsairk8: versioning is not a problem, unless you're doing something strange. 08:17:08 so what are the important things that make this loss of SPEED good? 08:17:14 revanthn: message passing doesnt have to be slow, infact in some cases it can speed up some things by allowing asynchrounous i/o 08:17:21 corsairk8: hm? 08:17:35 implementing algo's and maintaining system calls 08:17:51 you can have only one system call for all kinds of stuff just with differnet message formats 08:17:52 rev: this just help 08:17:55 the programmer 08:17:57 i just said gianluca 08:17:58 corsairk8: right. _in some cases_. 08:17:59 i mean this 08:18:07 writing a kernel isnt just a fight to sqeueze speed out 08:18:07 microkernel are cute :) 08:18:16 they are nice to see and to read the code and to read the design 08:18:18 besides, whens the last time you see linux taking advantage of the latest technologies...? 08:18:18 hmm 08:18:29 corsairk8: all this stuff is 'in some cases it's almost as fast'. 08:18:40 corsair: what do you mean by latest technologies? 08:18:49 for example, say MMX technology comes out one day and linux is going happily along, suddenly to use this technology you need a kernel recompile 08:18:50 gianluca:one day the world is going to run microkernels 08:18:52 but microkernel are slow! 08:19:07 most distribution vendors cant afford to give you two distro's, one for mmx and one for normal, so they give you a general kernel 08:19:17 revanthn: one day the world will even selfdestruct! 08:19:18 man isn 08:19:20 instead, you could have a kernel which is written unoptimised, but modules which are optimised for mmx instructions 08:19:30 gianluca: right, they are fun to write and read. however, from usability point of view it's a mistake. 08:19:35 ok right 08:19:41 what about Exokernels 08:19:45 do you like that idea 08:19:55 trash: hey i am by your side 08:19:57 so for example, audio drivers which do mixing, or a specific driver responsible for emulating missing functionality in the video subsystem (say for example, 3d acceleration) can be written to take advantage automatically 08:20:00 revanthn: i am writing an exokernel ;) 08:20:03 i like it 08:20:05 it may be a bit of a bad example but i cant think rigth now :) 08:20:07 corsairk8: and this happens how often, once per year? ;-> 08:20:10 really 08:20:12 because it has the best thing of microkernel 08:20:19 trash: it happens all the time 08:20:21 but it still keep being 08:20:24 how are you going to implement it 08:20:26 a monolihic :) 08:20:31 gianluca: i know ;-) 08:20:34 revanthn: i've changed lot of thing 08:20:42 gianluca:did you try MIT's Exokernel 08:20:50 corsairk8: yeah, sure. when was KNI introduced? 08:20:52 revanthn: i tried 2 years ago 08:20:55 but it couldn't compile :P 08:20:56 Exokernels are a joke 08:21:02 corsair?!?? 08:21:05 they have no practical use in desktop computing 08:21:09 corsair?!??????? 08:21:26 why? 08:21:43 revanthn: no idea. 08:21:43 im not just talking about processor technologies trans 08:21:49 revanthn: did you tried? 08:22:10 i downloaded it but din't try it till now 08:22:18 revanthn: egzokernels _can_ be a good idea, but i didn't read too much on these. 08:22:22 so it worked to you? 08:22:27 for example, say the hard disk ata now had support for an ultra-dma transfer mode 08:22:27 it's idea of letting the user process do whatever it needs 08:22:29 is good 08:22:38 instead of having one massive ata module with support for everything, you could break it down and have two 08:22:49 only loading one and reducing memory usage 08:22:52 libraries are fast than system modules :) 08:23:15 revanthn: are you interested about exokernels? 08:23:21 ofcourse 08:23:22 gianluca: no sane user-space application programmer WANTS to be close to teh hardware 08:23:32 i am more intrested in Artificial Nueral Systems 08:23:34 and compilers 08:23:37 corsairk8? 08:23:44 but do you THINK before TYPING? 08:23:47 it may simplify some specail-case software but it also cripples portability, doesnt allow you to follow standards and pretty much is useless for anything but custom-written software for a specific purpose 08:23:54 applications can use system libraries 08:23:57 this give a good 08:24:05 corsairk8: ata support _is_ splitted in linux. 08:24:18 this is good i mean 08:24:24 oh right 08:24:25 hmm 08:24:26 ginaluca: i got a good one why microkernels are good 08:24:28 (neither i think to much befor typing ;)) 08:24:36 revanthn: try it :D 08:24:47 most of the IPC doesnt' recquire a context swithc 08:24:50 er *switch 08:24:59 revanthn: why? 08:25:01 oh 08:25:01 hmm 08:25:02 yes 08:25:06 i got 08:25:08 buuuuuut 08:25:11 how about caching ipc requests in the local process? 08:25:18 ipc doesn't need. but allocating memory does 08:25:24 what's the common case? :D 08:25:42 gianluca, memory allocation is usually done on the page level isnt it? (like sbrk() or mmap()) 08:25:48 and then cut up 08:25:56 been a while since i touched an actual operating system kernel 08:25:58 since drivers are also user process there are not many context switches 08:26:22 revanthn? no this CREATE context switch :) 08:27:17 hey people i am going away a bit 08:27:29 see you soon for round 2 ;) 08:27:32 ok later 08:27:36 --- nick: gianluca -> gianl_away 08:27:48 oh btw rev: my kernel site is drex.sourceforge.net 08:28:15 i'll check it out 08:30:51 http://drex.sourceforge.net 08:31:07 please prefix the url with the appropriate protocol so my irc client can make it clickable 08:33:04 corsairk8:what OS are you working on 08:33:11 ive completed my os :) 08:33:59 what OS 08:34:00 the first version was a real-mode kernel capable of printing hello world, the final version was a protected mode 32-bit kernel with a working vm, keyboard driver and a small set of text-based commands 08:34:05 What design 08:34:07 Omikron 08:34:11 it was only a monolithic 08:34:19 but I was trying to lay out the code to be a microkernel 08:34:24 what lang did you use 08:34:27 its not a very nice os though, it doesnt support user-land apps 08:34:38 it doesnt have anything except basic ramdisk support and non-existant vfs 08:34:43 most of the design was cut short :) 08:34:48 revanthn: c and asm 08:34:50 gcc and nasm 08:35:22 i was also about to write a scheduler but it didnt get the context switching part right, and if i did i would have began a vm8086 vesa driver 08:35:40 to get a few basic drawing demo's and perhaps a graphical console 08:36:32 ok 08:36:34 it was quite cool though 08:36:40 what other topics are you intrested in 08:36:51 i didnt wanna spend eternity getting it like most modern os's 08:37:05 especailly when tehre are such amazingly fast and powerful os's like linux around 08:37:14 game coding! 08:37:26 my leading project (and only non-complete one at the time) is forgotten destruction 08:37:29 http://forgotten.sf.net/ 08:37:36 its also got me interested in 3d modelling 08:38:03 its a pretty neat (FREE!!) win32/linux rts game 08:38:19 done in SDL 08:39:00 so you good with SDL 08:39:08 yeh, im pretty alright with it 08:39:56 SDL is very basic and abstract though, most of the game programming is away from the system libraries and stuff like the ai, map handing, game logic, etc... 08:40:02 and not to mention rendering :) 08:40:16 getting an effiecent drs system is tricky 08:40:29 oh forgotten.sf.net, i've checked it some time ago 08:40:32 it's cool :) 08:40:34 thx 08:40:40 got tons of work to do :) 08:40:48 --- nick: gianl_away -> gianluca 08:40:52 since its half-term im hoping to get tons of work in 08:41:01 starting tommorow 08:41:37 well people, gotta leave you 08:41:52 latter gianluca 08:41:58 goot talks today :) 08:42:01 bye 08:42:09 gooD 08:42:10 i meant 08:42:11 :P 08:42:12 bye 08:42:15 --- quit: gianluca ("ircII EPIC4-1.0.1 -- Are we there yet?") 08:42:40 :) 08:42:51 its been fun arguing over linux :) 08:42:59 yeah 08:43:15 i still think for the majority of people though, linux is unsuitable 08:45:53 do you use FreeBSD 08:45:55 it's good 08:46:22 its another monolithic but its good, it was done before linux and quite frankly linux has no reason to exist 08:46:42 people just wanted something with a new name, that they could market to the general populace 08:46:57 yeah very much true 08:47:14 if they put the effort into freebsd that they did in linux we would have something pretty good 08:47:53 late then never 08:47:58 plus the fact that freebsd has had much less of an audience than linux yet it still has quite a stable and nice codebase 08:48:01 why don't you contribute somethign to FreeBSD 08:48:14 because ive taken a vow to stick to user-land programming 08:48:30 and i dont really run it anymore 08:48:38 windows is my main system 08:48:57 win2000 is good and quite stable 08:49:07 indeed, i like it 08:49:25 one project i like and might get interested in is bochs 08:49:48 they are goign through a very exiting time 08:50:02 did you know that Windows2000 contains 29 million lines of code 08:50:12 implementing nice things like the "dynamic" code which translates x86 to microcode instructions and then optimises them and constructs native cpu machine language 08:50:16 29 million? 08:50:21 wow, linux contains considerably less 08:50:33 but its got its crap spreaded through tons of different projects ilke x11, kde 08:50:40 FreeBSD is only 1.5 million without X 08:50:53 since X is not part of the OS it doesn't count 08:50:57 i think in reailty, the amoutn of code in a win32 distro is remarkably lower and more leaner than in a linux distro 08:51:06 revanthn: no, you can only count it as part of the os 08:51:18 revanthn: because windows gdi and windowing systems are part of its os 08:51:26 unles you wanna count linux as a text-based os 08:51:31 in windows GUI is in kernel so it counts 08:51:34 in which case you can treally compare 08:51:39 in FreeBSD X is just a big program 08:51:46 i know 08:52:03 it's not my opinion it's in the book "Modern Operating Systems 2/e" 08:52:08 my point is that, the linux kernel on its own does much less than the windows kernel on its own 08:52:17 yeah 08:52:54 so how's your math work going 08:53:04 quite nice 08:53:04 did you become a genius overnight :) 08:53:34 ive successfully had a mental breakdown and recovered within a few days 08:53:45 and came no closer to solving any problems 08:54:16 you are 16 right 08:54:20 somehow i dont think being a genious is very likely to happen to me 08:54:21 yes 08:54:25 i donno how everyone here is so smart 08:54:34 maybe i waste too much of my child life playing games 08:54:41 ok nice talking to you 08:54:43 g2g now 08:54:44 i blame those evil Blizzard people 08:54:44 ttyl 08:54:47 ah, see ya later 08:54:52 --- quit: revanthn () 09:23:05 --- join: Zenton (~vicente@8.Red-80-34-35.pooles.rima-tde.net) joined #osdev 09:25:17 hi all. 09:28:10 --- join: pitfluk (PiTfLuK@ABrest-103-1-4-154.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #osdev 09:28:12 hello 09:35:58 indigo: there ? 09:37:27 oink: :) 09:37:30 I wonder if geist is here heh 09:41:01 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:41:58 I wrote a disassembler last night 09:42:22 hrm 09:42:41 semaphore# ./a.out "0066" "00 02 F4 E8 F4 EA 00 2A 88 88 88 62 FE 00 01 88 63 C4 D4 01 8C 01 1C" 09:42:42 0066: 0002 jmp 006Ah 09:42:43 0068: F4E8F4EA00 movw #-0Ch[0E9h:0EAh],FFh:00h 09:42:44 006D: 2A88 mpy #88h,A 09:42:45 006F: 888862FE movw #8862h,0FDh:0FEh 09:42:46 0073: 0001 jmp 0076h 09:42:47 0075: 8863C4D4 movw #63C4h,0D3h:0D4h 09:42:48 0079: 018C jn 0007h 09:42:49 007B: 011C jn 0099h 09:42:50 semaphore# 09:42:54 :)) 09:43:00 <-- proud 09:44:34 :) 09:44:59 That looks like a buggy disassembler. 09:45:26 (or a one using crazy syntax :P) 10:00:53 it's not bugggy 10:00:56 it's correct 10:01:05 the cpu is just wierd 10:01:16 very specialized 10:02:11 void print_opcode_line(p_ol p_opcode_line, int col_width, int byte_length) 10:02:13 whoops 10:02:19 wrong channel 10:03:42 --- join: acme (acme@pd9e63ba8.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 10:05:04 --- quit: pitfluk ("bye") 10:07:19 vxd: how did you do that? 10:10:44 i wanna make a decompiler if its not too hard 10:11:00 but i want to build a bit of ai into it 10:11:27 corsairk8, well 10:11:36 I just did it... 10:11:37 heh 10:11:47 keep messing with it until I got it right 10:11:58 the code is very messy thouhgh ehheh 10:12:11 I can send you the src if you want 10:12:15 and you can learn from it 10:13:00 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1cust111.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #osdev 10:13:11 Nah 10:15:01 corsairk8, if there is anything specific you want to know, I'll try to help 10:15:44 * vxd- feels like he's talking to himself 10:17:36 --- quit: trash (Remote closed the connection) 10:17:36 --- join: trash_ (~trash@dial337.zgora.dialog.net.pl) joined #osdev 10:23:51 --- quit: Zenton (Remote closed the connection) 10:25:54 --- join: Zenton (~vicente@8.red-80-34-35.pooles.rima-tde.net) joined #osdev 10:46:23 --- quit: do ("Quit") 10:52:39 --- join: kaze (~Kaze_0mx@ca-bordeaux-12-97.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #osdev 10:55:01 --- join: stormbind_ (~stormbind@pd9519fc0.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 10:55:26 --- join: trans (~trans@fatwire-201-207.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 11:02:43 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:04:18 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1cust111.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #osdev 11:04:29 --- join: geist (~geist@tkgeisel.com) joined #osdev 11:07:17 hmm, looks like I missed a tasty microkernel vs monolith discussion a few hours ago 11:07:56 maybe 11:08:05 sup dax 11:08:17 hmm 11:08:23 trying to explain my gf how to get in here 11:08:28 seems to be really really dificult 11:08:51 lol geist 11:08:53 indeed 11:09:05 ya know girls dax =) 11:10:53 yup 11:11:19 well she isn't this bad most of the time lol 11:12:27 --- quit: fluff (Connection timed out) 11:12:52 lol 11:13:21 i have yet to meet a girl who would even begin to have some of the knowledge you guys have 11:13:29 although i have a theory that there are many girls here they just hide 11:13:35 they dont wanna be "treated differently" 11:13:48 its theyre evil plot to take over the open source initiative 11:14:32 ah, dont worry about it 11:14:47 i just killed a small insect flying around my monitor 11:14:54 bad karma 11:15:00 i ate it 11:15:10 oh well, if you gotta get 11:15:12 lol 11:15:13 that's the food chain 11:15:23 i feel sick now 11:15:27 probably 11:15:40 ;( 11:15:41 I gotta get ready for werk 11:15:45 ok 11:15:47 l8rz 11:15:52 but I'm still drinkin my coffee 11:15:58 oh darn 11:16:03 but I'll go in the other room 11:16:05 later! 11:16:07 --- nick: geist -> geist-work 11:16:21 i just killed some virul microbes by releasing anti-bodies from my white blood cells 11:17:10 wow. 11:17:14 woah 11:17:17 dax: heh 11:17:26 i'm THRILLED! tell me more! 11:18:18 :) 11:18:18 lol 11:18:27 --- join: dax__ (~you@u212-239-163-254.adsl.pi.be) joined #osdev 11:18:30 --- part: dax__ left #osdev 11:18:49 if you guys dont mind me starting a debate about evolutionion and biology 11:18:54 i wonder when killing becomes wrong 11:19:00 and if its nothing more than perspective 11:19:06 man it's really working 11:19:09 !!! 11:19:11 to a suffiecently advanced life form, would we not seem like an ant ? 11:19:24 and would even an ant seem like a microbe 11:19:31 not nessasarily in size, but in complexity 11:20:18 on the hand, maybe its not perspective and rather there are descreet and defined steps or stages in an evolutionary path that make creatures advanced no matter what 11:20:26 --- join: Liesbeth (Simon@78.152-136-217.adsl.skynet.be) joined #osdev 11:20:29 hiya Liesbeth 11:20:37 been doing any lieing while you were gone? 11:20:43 finally 11:20:47 finaly 11:20:54 go do some retardness-test lol 11:21:00 is dat met 2 llen? 11:21:07 dax: do you know any? 11:21:21 me 11:21:24 ... 11:21:27 1 hours to connect to irc lol 11:21:30 hour* 11:21:36 lol 11:21:38 damn pc 11:21:43 --- quit: dax ("Client Exiting") 11:21:49 ive spent longer, but thats usually when the entire operating system needs to be reinstalled as well as my router 11:21:55 heh 11:21:57 --- join: dax (~you@u212-239-163-254.adsl.pi.be) joined #osdev 11:22:01 wb dax 11:22:02 hello 11:22:10 whee. 11:22:15 servahr hoppin 11:22:39 /server irc.freenode.net 11:22:43 /join #osdev 11:22:46 that's hard. 11:22:47 i'm wearing new tshirt, a fake one from Turkey 11:22:53 when the hell did this network start beign called freenode? 11:22:53 dax, shut up 11:22:54 and it's a nice one 11:22:55 hmm 11:22:55 please 11:22:58 ok 11:23:00 lol 11:23:01 lol 11:23:21 i did everything right, that computer just doesn't like me 11:23:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +o dax 11:23:32 * Liesbeth hits the pc 11:23:45 i'm too violent 11:23:46 hmm 11:23:49 no +q mode? 11:23:49 sorry for that 11:23:49 wtf 11:23:50 hehe 11:24:10 violence is one of the defining points of being human 11:24:10 Unknown MODE flag 11:24:23 * corsairk8 brb 11:24:34 * corsairk8 gets drink for the straws he "apprehended" 11:24:59 hmm, i just read Jung, he's more insane than Freud 11:25:39 quite boring though 11:26:15 maybe i should read harry potter instead 11:26:19 --- mode: dax set +q dax!*@* 11:26:22 ok 11:26:24 hmm 11:26:29 is q supported? 11:26:39 --- join: do (~green@194.85.84.244) joined #osdev 11:26:43 --- mode: dax set -q dax!*@* 11:26:49 --- mode: dax set -o dax 11:27:44 no 11:27:48 yes 11:28:24 lol 11:30:23 Nelly: "Its getting super-nova in here, so take off all your hydrogen, I am gettin too hot, I go take my hydrogen off!" 11:30:39 "And if you have deuterium, then go and take that too" 11:30:42 j/k 11:30:49 you can tell i have no life ;) 11:30:56 someone was killed during his concert 11:31:01 who? 11:31:01 lol 11:31:03 roofles 11:31:05 rofmao 11:31:07 stabbed 11:31:24 a fabn 11:31:28 *fan 11:31:37 wow 11:32:22 they started to fight, probably they thought : waw this is rrrreally boring, let's attack other fans 11:33:02 wow 11:33:13 all this killing in the world and still people like bill gates seems to live and live 11:33:18 i don't like nelly 11:33:23 i dont either 11:33:31 and George W Bush 11:33:40 hush hush, he can hear us 11:33:43 brrr 11:33:45 cool 11:33:46 All praise george bush our leader! 11:34:10 j/k 11:34:10 mister president want some pretzels 11:34:51 i just listened to limp bizkit remix of house of pains jump around 11:34:54 and it was hella funny 11:35:02 bad? 11:35:10 bad? 11:35:17 limp bizkit? 11:35:28 hes funny, he cant rap at all 11:35:30 but he tries to 11:35:52 like nelly 11:35:54 dont you know who limp bizkit are? 11:36:05 what a stupid question 11:36:15 of course 11:36:17 nah, there are no such things a stupid question 11:36:36 that's the only exeption 11:36:43 they are a sorta crappy nu-metal band 11:36:55 they made rollin which was on mtv 11:37:00 among others 11:37:10 chocolate starfish and hotdogflavoured water 11:37:15 yah 11:37:16 exactly 11:37:16 i know it 11:37:57 the song they made for mission impossible was a whole ripp-off from rage against the machine 11:38:08 yeh 11:38:11 the part he goes : i know why ya wanna hate me 11:38:22 and : fuck you i woun't do what ya tell me 11:38:37 from RATM 11:38:51 hehe 11:40:06 nookie 11:40:14 hehe, that song was real dumb i think 11:40:19 --- join: gianluca (~kernel@ppp-205-132.28-151.libero.it) joined #osdev 11:40:20 indeed 11:40:22 hi there 11:40:39 never really liked limp bizkit 11:40:47 i liked laughing at him 11:41:25 hiya gianluca 11:41:31 hey corsair! 11:41:34 the fuck song 11:41:47 don't know that one 11:42:15 sorta goes "ladies and gentleman, introducing the chocolate starfish and the hot dog flavoured hot dog" 11:42:20 and goes "its a fucked up world..." 11:42:24 i might have it by the wrong name 11:42:49 yeeeaaah that song 11:42:56 a fucked up cop 11:43:04 with a fucked up badge 11:43:09 http://www.songlyrics.co.nz/lyrics/l/limpbizkit/hotdog.htm 11:43:12 yeh 11:43:31 * corsairk8 wondered why it had "Hot Dog" in brackets 11:43:41 waw, that was a while agoo i heard that song 11:43:46 livin it up is probably theyre best song 11:43:52 hmm, that's not correct 11:43:59 my sentice 11:44:02 sentince 11:44:04 jesus 11:44:08 hmm 11:44:09 hehe 11:44:11 sentance 11:44:33 no? 11:44:45 ... had too much french today 11:44:48 i think 11:44:53 and dutch 11:44:53 sentence it may be 11:44:58 * corsairk8 cant remember 11:45:02 * corsairk8 checks m-w.com 11:45:06 hehehehe 11:45:09 sentence 11:45:33 yup 11:45:41 thanks 11:45:47 i'll never forget that 11:45:49 i hope 11:45:53 :) first time i help someone in english ;) 11:46:01 * corsairk8 goes back to listening to offspring 11:46:09 why do i have such good grades when i makes giant mistakes 11:46:14 because i've just readed THAT word :) 11:46:25 heh 11:46:50 hmm 11:46:54 dax! 11:47:00 i got a max on an english test 11:47:05 me too 11:47:09 and i was thinking that i had all of it wrong 11:47:09 lol 11:47:15 hehe 11:47:18 not me though 11:47:19 tests are always backwards for me 11:47:25 i dont even beleive what the results say anymore 11:47:35 my teacher can't even pronounce it properly 11:47:38 lol 11:47:40 heh 11:47:41 true 11:47:43 she sucks 11:47:46 * corsairk8 knows hes dumb and wont beleive otherwise 11:47:54 j/k 11:48:11 UR TEH DUMB 11:48:16 Good evening :) 11:48:21 on a technology quiz or something i could run rings around almost everyone in my college 11:48:22 i'm the dumb too 11:48:25 lol 11:48:26 really really dumb 11:48:33 hmm 11:48:37 ik hou me effe stil 11:48:54 oh dear, im getting a bit too arrogant for my Own good ;) 11:48:56 * corsairk8 shuts up 11:48:58 hey, i never studied english at school :) 11:49:33 i used to study french 11:49:43 that's because all i know is this bad english :P 11:49:51 (NO FRENCH;)) 11:50:06 oh well i never learned any english at school either lol 11:50:19 idem 11:50:29 i learned bad dutch too 11:50:34 real fun 11:50:37 and i refuse to learn french 11:50:49 you are just stubburn 11:50:56 and my teacher dutch is stupid and i still got to convince her that she doesn't know proper dutch 11:51:00 sn't french your native tounge, dax? 11:51:40 no 11:51:41 dutch 11:51:48 Oh.. 11:51:50 :) 11:51:51 we're in the dutch part :) 11:51:53 --- join: file (proxy@mctn1-2423.nb.aliant.net) joined #osdev 11:51:54 oh well, my italian professor too didn't know italian ;) 11:51:59 there's a french and a german part too 11:52:14 and an arabian one, they're planning to make one! 11:52:19 fun 11:52:26 Heh. 11:52:31 who knows arabian? 11:52:37 * Robert doesn't. 11:52:39 hey, i discovered that my city's dialect has something in common with arabian!!! 11:52:43 cool :) 11:52:44 Although I went to an arabian kindergarden. 11:52:56 --- quit: do ("Quit") 11:52:58 ah 11:53:35 well, time to go 11:53:39 * dax listens to his fav. song 11:53:45 BSD FIGHT BUFFER REIGN 11:53:49 hmm 11:53:50 arrivederci 11:53:59 or something like that 11:54:03 ciao 11:54:07 no it's right 11:54:09 arrivederci 11:54:10 ciao! 11:54:23 --- quit: gianluca ("ircII EPIC4-1.0.1 -- Are we there yet?") 11:54:24 great! Simon is learning Italian 11:54:29 --- quit: kaze ("Leaving") 11:54:33 my brother 11:54:33 'rackin' ze bathroom, 'rackin' ze vault, rippin' ze bat, SECURE BY DEFAULT 11:55:21 turkey 11:55:38 --- quit: file (Client Quit) 11:56:59 --- quit: gab (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:57:12 --- join: gab (~prfalken@gaia.chx-labs.org) joined #osdev 11:59:21 --- join: file (proxy@156.34.183.145) joined #osdev 11:59:51 --- join: DRF (Daniel@host213-121-68-48.surfport24.v21.co.uk) joined #osdev 12:00:42 --- join: quantis (quantis@130.88.157.186) joined #osdev 12:01:29 ello 12:01:57 does anyone know where i can find any good tutorials on vga programming ? 12:03:17 Hi quantis 12:03:31 ello there 12:03:48 bit quite in here 12:04:24 --- join: gianluca (~kernel@ppp-88-137.28-151.libero.it) joined #osdev 12:04:41 back 12:05:00 bah 12:05:04 no tracking for my watch yet 12:05:10 hello 12:05:35 file, still waiting for it? 12:05:42 why didn't you take the binary watch? 12:06:15 --- quit: gianluca (Client Quit) 12:06:18 binary watch? 12:06:36 that wouldnt by any chance be a watch that displays the time in binary would it ? 12:06:51 quantis: yes that's it 12:07:06 and I'll still tell why I didn't take it, even though gianluca isn't here 12:07:06 quantis: It can be quiet at times, personally I'm a bit busy so not chatting much. 12:07:20 Radioshack Canada only had the remote control watch - and it would have cost ALOT to order it from Thinkgeek 12:07:26 Unfortunalty I don't know much about VGA programming in response to your question 12:08:02 bbl - going to lay down and watch TV 12:08:10 goodbye 12:08:37 drf:thanks 12:08:45 --- quit: Liesbeth () 12:08:57 many people in here actually do much osdevelopment? 12:09:32 quantis: I play around with real mode boot loaders and kernels 12:09:35 nope quantis 12:09:42 only person who has a real os is... 12:09:43 uhm 12:09:47 pavlovski who no longer comes 12:09:48 ah just wodnering cause im just starting my own 12:09:57 dont beleive me yourll regret it 12:10:03 yeah i know 12:10:09 ive started amany time before 12:10:11 :) 12:10:17 too lazzy to do much 12:10:29 but this time ive set a machine up especially for development 12:11:25 --- join: cookin (~jrydberg@d212-151-88-66.swipnet.se) joined #osdev 12:13:16 quantis: What sort of technical details are you implementing? (If you have got that far) 12:13:34 well im working on a virtual processor design at the moment 12:13:56 kind of likethe managed code idea in .net and java 12:14:18 but it ill be able to link fine with native code 12:15:02 or thats the hope, the virtual instruction set ill have opcodes allowing it to pass params to kernel mode/native code and vice versa or thats teh hope 12:15:09 ive got the instruction set planned 12:15:17 i was just starting writing the processor 12:15:38 gonna write me own language for it as well 12:16:55 Hmm, *slightly sarcastic humerous voice* so going for the nice and simple approch lol 12:18:00 oh hell yeah 12:18:03 :) 12:18:16 its simpler then it sounds 12:18:22 the compilers not to hard 12:18:35 and im not messing with a kernel till i get hte virtual processor part working 12:18:54 which is basically just a n intrepreter 12:19:10 but each new process gets a new processor 12:19:15 --- join: Ghiottone (~alex@ppp-240-16.27-151.libero.it) joined #osdev 12:19:17 virtualy of course 12:20:20 The number of times I've heard people say it's quite simple to implement .... 12:20:51 i know ive been reading the forums on stuff like osnews for about a year 12:21:14 its litteredwith the corpse of noble attempts at reppling the evil domination of microsoft and its cronies 12:21:20 blah blah blah 12:21:21 :) 12:22:15 im under no illusions, i know how lazy iam and how little chance i have of actually ever finishing this but 12:22:19 hey what the hell 12:22:40 Fair enough 12:23:28 heres the $64000 question, what would be your ideal operating system? 12:25:08 * DRF thinks he has seen one to many "Help me take over Microsoft my joining my OS project" posts. 12:25:38 My ideal Operating System is one that I can say I've made which is actually useful!!! 12:27:25 :) 12:27:40 nah 12:27:46 21:27 * DRF thinks he has seen one to many "Help me take over Microsoft my joining my OS project" posts. 12:27:49 Amen! 12:27:50 im just doing this os for kicks 12:27:56 Kiddies are taking over the world! 12:27:58 Hehe. 12:28:05 :) 12:28:19 I'm getting into some electronics, and writing some sort of controll system for a home-made computer would be nice++ 12:28:39 yeah id love to build my own computer 12:28:51 * Robert likes the AVR chips. 12:28:54 Really neat.. 12:29:06 thinking of getting an old 68k development kit i saw in a surplus add building out of that, pretty tried and tested 12:29:17 Do you think an IR link is enough for I/O? :P 12:29:28 Oh :) 12:29:36 hey you could write a terminal program for a palm 12:29:40 use it as the interface :) 12:29:40 --- quit: Javanx (Remote closed the connection) 12:29:46 I saw some nice AVR development boarss for $20 in case you're money starved. 12:29:50 actually i think ive seen that done 12:30:03 What do you mean? 12:30:05 AVR whats the spec, dont think ive heard of them 12:30:08 What have you seen done? 12:30:12 a terminal on a palm 12:30:15 www.atmel.com 12:30:16 over infrared 12:30:20 oh atmels 12:30:24 Really nice microcontrollers, the AVR series. 12:30:25 yeah ive seen them 12:30:38 How do you like them= 12:30:40 ? 12:30:42 if you could interface external ram chips to them youd be sorted 12:30:44 --- join: Javanx (~javanx@213.45.18.199) joined #osdev 12:30:49 dunno im a pic man myself 12:30:54 Hehe 12:30:55 Cool. 12:31:04 I'll see if I can build myself a little PIC programmer. 12:31:05 using some pics to build a packet assembler dissasembler for the army 12:31:19 Packet assembler? 12:31:59 --- join: do (~green@194.85.84.244) joined #osdev 12:32:01 basicly like a litle router, plug in a serial terminal at one end and it translates the serial data into packets and sendst them over a radio network 12:32:14 its just so they can be routed 12:32:42 i hoping well be able to get quake to run over it at some point if i can be arsed working out how to write a network driver for windows 12:33:37 :P 12:33:48 Well, I'm planning to start out with an IR link. 12:33:59 Ever constructed something liek that? 12:34:08 * Robert needs some advice. 12:34:38 Hoi, Robert! 12:34:46 I can give you some advice. 12:35:04 --- quit: do (Client Quit) 12:35:15 Whatever the problem, lesbian porn is the answer. 12:35:33 Hoi, Rico! 12:35:35 Hehe. 12:35:49 The problem is: should I use photo diodes or photo transistors? 12:35:59 The latter would be cheaper. 12:36:07 I might get a job working on some infra red project. 12:36:27 hmm 12:37:20 Rico: :) 12:37:26 cookin: Vad tycker du? 12:37:35 cookin: Är IR-transistorer användbara? 12:37:58 Kostar typ 3 kr i stället för 6 på ELFA :P 12:38:20 (Alltså, de billigaste fotodioderna går på omkring 6kr) 12:39:15 ingen j-a aning 12:39:26 :) 12:40:27 which language is that ? 12:40:55 Swedish. 12:41:10 I guess you don't know either, do you? 12:47:35 I wanna learn Robert's native language! 12:48:26 2/clear 12:48:29 grr 12:48:38 Ik spreek niet zweed, Rico. 12:48:57 Erm 12:49:04 Ik spreek geen zweed. 12:49:06 "Ik spreek geen Zweeds." 12:49:09 :D 12:49:32 Oh. 12:49:33 Sorry :) 12:49:42 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:51:09 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1cust111.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #osdev 12:53:22 --- join: Aardappel (wvo96r@p508c4bdd.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 12:53:46 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 12:55:15 --- join: do (~green@194.85.84.244) joined #osdev 12:55:38 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1cust111.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #osdev 12:58:12 class, my girlfriends trying (very unsucessfuly im ight add) to teach me chinese 12:58:42 Heh. 12:58:53 "my girlfriends" o_O 12:59:03 so why you want ot buil the ir thingymybob then ? 12:59:12 Why not? 12:59:13 :) 12:59:17 Nice way to communicate :P 12:59:26 Wireless sounds modern and all... ;)= 12:59:30 hey do you think you could get a unix type system working on a atmel/pic type processor? 12:59:58 --- join: __asm (~bastian@rev213-168-194-40-ncdial4.nc-ppp.net) joined #osdev 13:00:19 you could always make you own little bluetooth copy and use 418mhz transmitters instead :) 13:00:20 quantis: Sure, but it won't be as full-featured as Linux :P 13:00:24 brb 13:00:25 they prety cheap 13:00:44 obviously, youve only got like 2k of ram and about 16k of rom on the best pics 13:00:44 --- quit: DRF (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:00:50 so it would be pretty limited 13:01:02 2k barely enough for a frame buffer now i think of it 13:01:23 could be a highly distributed architecture, with a pic for evry processs :0 13:01:24 back 13:01:27 muhahaha 13:01:28 --- quit: cookin ("Client Exiting") 13:01:34 Heh. 13:01:34 * quantis is the king of simplicity 13:01:38 Well, you could ass some SRAM 13:01:56 EEPROM and flash is cheap memory for storing data. 13:02:06 SRAM is...well, not that expensive either. 13:02:13 on pics the only easy way to access it is on a i2o bus and there slow as hell 13:02:27 But I'd say you'll have to pay up to $25 for a decent AVR with some memory chips. 13:02:32 Heheh. 13:02:36 Well, better than nothing. 13:02:43 You don't use microcontrollers for speed :P 13:02:53 true 13:03:03 having saqid that i bet it could whip a pdp11 arse :) 13:03:20 and that was the furtile womb from which unix sprung 13:03:40 Well... I think the PIC can address external SRAM in like 4 cykles. 13:03:41 cycles* 13:03:43 Or whatever. 13:03:57 --- quit: do ("ųā âåđíķņü") 13:04:44 really 13:04:57 * Robert checks 13:05:13 but i though you had to sort of write you own driver for that 13:05:42 Nah. 13:05:50 Not for the SRAM. 13:05:56 For flash and stuff - yes. 13:06:07 But I think it has some built-in feature for some kind of sram. 13:06:33 Maybe that was the AVR ;) 13:08:37 ill have a look at the avr never bothered investigaing it but it seems to be croping up more and more 13:09:01 Yeah.. 13:09:06 Since it's better than the PIC. 13:09:11 And not much more expensive. 13:10:18 it looks it even on the first page im qutie impressed 13:10:37 --- join: do (~green@194.85.84.244) joined #osdev 13:11:38 --- quit: Ghiottone (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 13:11:45 iam impressed 13:11:46 --- join: Ghiottone (~alex@ppp-48-17.27-151.libero.it) joined #osdev 13:11:48 how much are they ? 13:12:05 Hmm 13:12:09 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:12:14 From like $2 to $15 13:12:20 Depending on the model, of course. 13:12:42 Really good ones (better than all PICs) start at ~$5 13:12:44 brb 13:13:16 class 13:13:32 wonder where i can get hold of them 13:13:54 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1cust111.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #osdev 13:18:57 --- join: rg (~doors@z-airlock192.esatclear.ie) joined #osdev 13:23:00 --- quit: rg ("$quit -> signal_connect("delete_event", sub { Gtk -> exit ( 0 ); } );") 13:23:15 looks like there some quite beasty little atmels floating around 13:23:52 ehe 13:25:47 ello 13:34:22 :) 13:37:30 --- quit: Ghiottone ("Uscita dal client") 13:43:48 --- join: gianluca (~kernel@ppp-50-134.28-151.libero.it) joined #osdev 13:43:51 hi there 13:44:24 Hello. 13:44:59 wb 13:45:26 processor id really like to work with though is the popwerpc 13:45:35 they got some small embedded ones of those noew 13:47:10 Never worked with any of those. 13:47:13 Only PIC/AVR/x86 13:47:32 But I'd sure try one if I could get hold of any for a reasonable prize. 13:47:36 I've messed with the ppc a bit, interesting 13:47:43 the asm looks very gross on it though 13:48:21 most of the big risc chips do 13:48:53 not necessarilly 13:48:57 mips uses a virtual processor for its assembly language (which kind of defeats the object i would have though) so its quite a nice one 13:49:02 right 13:49:16 its to do with strying to get the piplines working and stuff 13:49:23 yah 13:49:38 the ones that really mess with your head are the cpus with the jump slots, like the sparc 13:49:46 took me a while to figure that out when I first looked at it 13:49:49 sh-4 has em too 13:50:09 makes ordering the code so complicated, thats why compilers are so big on the risc chips. they have to do all the scheduling, its even worse for things like itanium where theres no hardware scheduling at all 13:50:24 *nod* 13:50:38 what register windows, where they keep swapping around what registers you using and stuff like that, 13:51:08 hey im using something like that in my virtual processor. its how i was going to implment interprocess communications :) 13:51:10 yeah, and then there's register windows, but that's acually pretty easy to deal with 13:51:30 you have to write the register window spilling code on sparcs though 13:51:35 never heard of jump slots what are they 13:51:44 jmp foo 13:51:48 i though you just ment register windows 13:51:48 mov r0,$0 13:52:02 on a cpu with a jump slot 13:52:10 the instruction *after* a branch instruction is always run 13:52:21 you'll see it a lot at the end of a function 13:52:25 ret 13:52:30 mov r0,result 13:52:32 ahh to avoid the penality if they execute the wrong brank 13:52:42 brank = ranch 13:52:43 well, no it's just exposing the pipeline 13:52:47 ranch = branch 13:52:52 oh okay 13:53:05 if you ever look at sparc asm you'll see that and it's pretty strange 13:53:11 its the at dusty part of my computer architecutre book 13:53:25 no wodner riscys always use c :) 13:53:30 you'll also see the compiler stick nops after the branch instructions if it doesn't have anything that can parallel with it 13:53:54 you never see amateure assembler operating systems on risc boxes like you do on intel, or good ole 86k 13:54:08 yeah 13:54:24 I keep meaning to port my os to another box, but I haven't gotten around to it 13:54:27 86 = 68k, my typings gone to pot today 13:54:38 though I did port it from PC to sh-4, which is a risc machine 13:54:39 what os you working on ? 13:54:42 newos 13:54:47 terrible name I know 13:54:49 yeah its in dereamcast 13:54:54 yup 13:54:54 omg 13:55:00 you were in ddj 13:55:06 yep, that was fun 13:55:13 got paid pretty well too 13:55:13 your the kernel for the whole open beos thingy 13:55:20 yup 13:55:24 * quantis bows down to great os god in the ether 13:55:32 its was only like two pages 13:55:34 maybe three 13:55:40 menuet was in there as well 13:55:56 i was well chuffed at that cuase id downloaded that the day before i say ddj in the shop 13:56:48 i downloadedyour source code the other day, was planning on erm.... looking from inspiration from within its bowls 13:57:18 guess its a bit of an understatement you knowing aboutppc then, didnt you programming it on the old beboxes 13:57:43 a little 13:57:44 * quantis thinks hes coming across as a scary stalker and sits quitly in the corner 13:57:55 no no, sorry I was talking to someone else here at work 13:57:58 I'm back 13:58:07 ah sorry 13:58:13 so how come you proted it to dreamcast 13:58:27 I wanted to test the architecture independance layer I designed into it 13:58:42 ahh, fair enough 13:58:57 trying to design a system to have a strict arch independance layer is pretty tough, and it's one of the design goals of newos 13:59:14 and the dreamcast is pretty different from pc 13:59:25 and I didn't really have any other non-x86 machines at the time 13:59:25 hey you wouldnt want a virtual processor layer ontop of it would you ? 13:59:39 must have been a git debugging it 13:59:47 I heared the psx uses a 2-dimensional address space, that's wicked. 14:00:02 debugging the dreamcast? not really 14:00:09 it was pretty straightforward 14:00:12 how come 14:00:25 and remember I already had the system working, so I could write a lot of the code off as already functional 14:00:31 rico: hows that work then? 14:00:50 like a huge 2d array 14:00:52 ah true, so once you port the hal your away 14:00:54 Rico: not as far as I know. I've looked at ps2s a lot at least and they're weird but not that strange 14:00:58 how big is the hal 14:01:04 geist: nono, ps1 14:01:19 quantis: hmm, well lemme see 14:01:26 rico: thats nearly all standard hardware in the ps1 14:01:50 I must have read it somewhere 14:01:52 wouldnt 2dimensional memory jsut owrk out as a sort of paging, theres only like 2-4mb of ram in it 14:02:06 and its got a propa 32 bit processor 14:02:24 well, running find . | grep sh4 | xargs wc on my box yields: 14:02:30 7061 22039 181462 total 14:02:37 so 7k lines it seems 14:02:43 jesus is that all 14:02:58 hmm tempted to buy a secondhand amiga 14:02:59 --- quit: acme (Connection timed out) 14:03:00 if you design it right, the arch dependant stuff is very minimal 14:03:11 isuppose 14:03:20 it's just the low level memory management and stuff like context switch and interrupt handling glue 14:03:30 most of the code is independant 14:03:41 new-os microkernel then ? 14:03:49 of that only about 900 lines are asm 14:04:00 and that's much more than the x86 port, since the sh-4 asm is quite long-winded 14:04:22 nah, it's a modular monolith 14:04:37 I have all sorts of stuff in the kernel, like filesystems and a net stack 14:04:42 fair enough, more efficient that way 14:05:40 hmmm, if i get hold of an amiga i might try porting that then, i usedc to be quite ood at programming the olde 68k, havign said that i was quite young and taught myself, so i dread to think what my actualyl source code looks like now i think about it 14:06:09 porting it to the gba would be fun 14:06:33 yeah, I've been meaning to port newos to my next slab I picked up a while back 14:06:39 25Mhz 68040 14:06:45 gba doesn't have a mmu, so I dont bother 14:07:03 so? 14:07:15 you could always write one as part of you hal, be slow as hell mind 14:07:24 how much that slab cost ? 14:10:48 always wanted a nextbox 14:11:11 been thinking about getting a mac, but i cant really afford one, want one of those new ibook 14:11:20 * quantis start to drool at the thought 14:12:37 * geist-work is back 14:12:51 I got it for free, but I know a place that sells old ones for under $100 14:13:06 which is actually kind of expensive considering how slow it is by today's standards 14:13:17 it's too slow to do any new work on, but it's a neat toy 14:14:15 --- join: mehleggen (wossname@hse-quebeccity-ppp80715.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #osdev 14:14:53 --- nick: mehleggen -> wossname 14:15:03 suppose 14:15:21 gonna try out your newos for the first time just downloaded the floppy image :) 14:15:32 it's not that impressive 14:15:32 :) 14:15:41 I haven't made it useful, I just like hacking on kernels 14:15:49 it's pretty full featured, it just doesn't do anything 14:15:54 arse it bypassed it a: 14:15:57 grrr 14:16:13 well anyway, I gotta get to work 14:16:25 if you wanna talk about newos later, come over to #newos 14:16:32 there are usually a few of us there 14:16:36 geist: what work you do? 14:16:44 Danger, Inc. www.danger.com 14:16:50 I work on an os we wrote for our device 14:17:00 thanks, just curious :) 14:17:24 nice :) 14:18:52 hey i got new os working 14:18:56 class 14:19:14 see what you mean by not doing a lot :) 14:19:20 want an application developer :) 14:21:34 have you got a framebuffer device on it yet ? 14:26:58 sorry can't talk, I'm busy 14:27:06 come to #newos and ask there, someone else can help 14:27:09 --- part: geist-work left #osdev 14:28:14 --- join: jsr (www@du114-6.ppp.algonet.se) joined #osdev 14:31:00 --- quit: air ("moving") 14:39:46 --- quit: file (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 14:40:31 --- quit: bono ("Lost terminal") 14:50:42 --- quit: trash_ ("leaving") 14:51:20 --- quit: mrd (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 14:59:27 --- join: qwerty79 (piero@151.17.129.114) joined #osdev 14:59:44 --- part: qwerty79 left #osdev 15:08:03 --- join: I440r_ (~mark4@1Cust39.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #osdev 15:14:56 --- join: Kurt (~kmw@gc-nas-01-s288.cinergycom.net) joined #osdev 15:20:08 oink: yes 15:20:21 indigo: can you send me your icc compiled povray *please* ? :) 15:22:10 heheh 15:22:12 sure :) 15:23:02 send! 15:23:02 http://sempiternity.org/~indigo/povray-3.50a.tbz2 15:23:05 thanks. 15:23:05 gentoo format 15:23:19 compiled with icc...good luck getting it to run :) 15:23:29 be sure to make a seperate dir for it 15:23:47 it will create subdirs like "bin" and "usr" and such 15:24:10 then just copy them over...or if you are feeling lucky, untar it from / :) 15:24:18 k :) 15:28:35 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 15:28:45 night all 15:29:59 night gian 15:34:48 night quantis 15:34:53 --- quit: gianluca ("Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?") 15:39:07 --- join: file (proxy@156.34.189.167) joined #osdev 15:40:03 moo 15:41:20 woof woof 15:41:48 arf arf arf 15:42:34 --- join: mrd (~skdjfjksj@pcp201472pcs.uprtnw01.nj.comcast.net) joined #osdev 15:47:56 --- quit: wossname ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over IRC.") 15:51:16 --- quit: mrd ("http://mrd.knows.it") 15:51:21 --- join: mrd (~skdjfjksj@pcp201472pcs.uprtnw01.nj.comcast.net) joined #osdev 15:53:41 --- join: nullify (~nullify@pool-138-89-47-229.mad.east.verizon.net) joined #osdev 15:58:45 --- quit: mrd ("http://mrd.knows.it") 15:58:58 --- join: mrd (~skdjfjksj@pcp201472pcs.uprtnw01.nj.comcast.net) joined #osdev 16:02:43 --- quit: Kurt ("Connection reset by deer") 16:04:15 --- quit: jsr ("Hi, I'm a quit message virus. Please replace your old line with this line and help me take over IRC.") 16:08:10 * do is away: I'm busy 16:08:22 * do is back (gone 00:00:03) 16:09:20 --- join: eks (~eks@h24-82-197-140.wp.shawcable.net) joined #osdev 16:11:19 * do is away: watching colored pictures at the dream ... 16:11:25 --- nick: do -> do[done] 16:23:27 --- quit: __asm ("leaving") 16:33:06 --- quit: file () 16:43:20 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 16:45:29 --- quit: corsairk8 () 16:53:54 gn all. 16:55:32 * wli tries to figure out an appropriate userspace vfs test harness. 16:57:13 * wli also notes bochs' gdb support is a wee bit lacking on SMP 16:57:35 --- quit: mrd ("http://mrd.knows.it") 17:03:18 --- join: mrd (~skdjfjksj@pcp201472pcs.uprtnw01.nj.comcast.net) joined #osdev 17:03:58 --- quit: nullify ("Client Exiting") 17:12:02 how do i specify an entry symbol in gcc, ld keeps spitting out: warning: cannot find entry symbol _mainCRTStartup; defaulting to 00000000 17:14:05 gcc -wl, 17:14:08 man ld 17:16:46 --- join: file (proxy@mctn1-3126.nb.aliant.net) joined #osdev 17:19:09 eks, can i do that on windows? 17:19:34 <- using cygwin 17:19:53 yeah, should work 17:20:09 -wl allows to pass flags to 'ld' 17:20:48 how do i find the ld flags tho? 17:21:01 man ld 17:21:28 -e entry 17:21:28 --entry=entry 17:21:28 Use entry as the explicit symbol for beginning execution of your program, rather than the default entry point. If there is no symbol named 17:21:31 entry, the linker will try to parse entry as a number, and use that as the entry address (the number will be interpreted in base 10; you may 17:21:34 use a leading 0x for base 16, or a leading 0 for base 8). 17:22:32 thanks. how can i read the ld manual in cygwin? i tried typing 'man ld' at the bash shell but it says man: command not found 17:23:12 maybe by installing the 'man' package ? 17:23:22 :P sorry i have no clue 17:23:31 lol 17:25:39 --- quit: Aardappel (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 17:34:27 --- join: acme (acme@p5080972B.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 17:45:01 --- join: trans (~trans@fatwire-201-207.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 17:45:14 hi 17:46:19 hi trans 17:47:20 hi mrd 17:47:24 what's up? 17:48:26 im trying to get ld to see the entry symbol. i think either ld or gcc is mangling the symbols, and that's why it doesn't see it? i never did this before. 17:49:07 ? 17:49:22 _start is the default entry symbol for ld 17:50:25 would i simply have a function void _start() or would i have a label _start: 17:51:49 who is calling the entry point? 17:52:00 what format is the exe in? elf? 17:52:46 it's in elf, and noone's calling it for now, im just trying to get LD to see the entry symbol so it won't complain 17:53:04 oh 17:53:36 i've never really used gcc before, im trying to learn how to use it 17:53:47 then a void _start() should be ok as long as you are careful inside it 17:54:04 what do you mean by being careful? 17:54:05 hold on one soc 17:54:11 sec 17:55:29 http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html 18:00:00 mrd? 18:04:47 moo 18:05:07 mou 18:05:26 * file fails at proxying through his HTTP proxy and resorts to using the NAT system 18:05:50 NAT is the way to go. 18:06:02 trans: i see the -s option, to strip symbols 18:06:08 oink: it's been failing me lately 18:06:18 file: leenuks? 18:06:20 oink: which is odd... and sucks 18:06:23 damn 18:06:32 why are you still sticked to windows ? 18:06:36 oink: if I leave mIRC going through it and don't talk for 5 minutes, I get kicked off 18:06:36 oh.. 18:06:44 your wireless stuff 18:06:44 oink: because my wireless network gear won't work in Linux 18:06:52 yes 18:06:53 sure about that ? 18:07:02 I've got an ISA driver, but no PCMCIA 18:07:10 hrm 18:07:22 pcmcia works barely like pci 18:07:35 gimme the specs 18:07:40 what MAC is in there ? 18:07:40 specs? 18:07:53 * file is confused 18:07:57 just tell me what you'd like 18:08:18 Media Access Control, not your ethernet mac.. 18:08:21 er 18:08:40 * file is still confused 18:09:05 "the thing which does all the job on your card" 18:09:15 I haven't a clue 18:09:21 doh 18:09:34 would you like the URL to the ISA driver? 18:09:38 gimme 18:09:59 one moment 18:10:19 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.helliwell/warplink/ 18:11:51 moo moo 18:11:57 --- join: malenfant (~malenfant@ati2362cy13e4.bc.hsia.telus.net) joined #osdev 18:12:01 indigo: do you wear those? 18:12:08 nope 18:12:55 anyone know if gcc mangles symbol names when it compiles? 18:12:56 great 18:12:58 i try not :) 18:13:06 mrd: only in C++ 18:14:00 oink: if you can turn that into a working PCMCIA driver, I'll... who knows 18:14:29 file: I won't, I don't have the hardware and not enough time.. 18:14:44 oink: bah 18:15:00 Windows it is then 18:15:36 so.. why is ld saying "warning: cannot find entry symbol progstart; defaulting to 00000000" 18:16:00 --- quit: Javanx ("I don't feel a thing, and i stopped remembering. The days are just like moments tourned to hours") 18:17:30 gcc will process .c files only as C and not C++, correct? 18:19:39 * mrd punches the entry symbol in the mouth 18:20:03 mrd: except if you tell him it's C++ 18:21:05 --- join: karingo (karingo@103.portland-05-10rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #osdev 18:24:28 well, if i have a function, void progstart() , in C, shouldn't that be seen by ld as a symbol? 18:26:34 --- quit: indigo (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:28:25 eh, ok here's another question: im trying to use objcopy to copy only the code from an .elf... my .elf is 3,870 bytes, yet the .bin objcopy is producing is 3,077KB. i have "objcopy -v -O binary test.elf test.bin" - what am i doing wrong? 18:28:56 --- join: indigo (indigo@bgp01105107bgs.wbrmfd01.mi.comcast.net) joined #osdev 18:30:36 gcc is evil 18:31:13 indeed 18:31:19 i use icc wherever i can :) 18:31:32 indigo, are you familiar with objcopy? 18:33:01 how about bob, the chef? ;\ 18:33:35 objcopy? 18:33:45 yes, the program 18:33:48 hmm 18:33:52 objdump... 18:33:56 never used objcopy 18:34:14 ah well. what's objdump do? 18:34:30 dumps info about objects 18:34:44 * indigo is rendering his rings at 2400x2400 tonight 18:36:19 who has a big monitor? :P 18:36:46 i can only handle 1600x1200 18:36:54 @ 19inches 18:37:23 ..but i could scroll around it :) 18:37:25 well, if you half the size it should fit nicely :P 18:37:31 yah, that's what i'll be doing 18:37:43 i'm making it big so that i can see all the details 18:38:47 there's really a lot of them :) 18:40:01 well, it should be done ...maybe by the time i go to bed :) 18:40:38 --- quit: I440r_ (No route to host) 18:40:52 i switched on recursive antialiasing, which makes it much slower also 18:47:25 --- quit: karingo () 18:56:00 --- quit: indigo (Connection timed out) 18:56:23 * mrd yays 18:56:26 yay 18:56:28 :) 18:58:16 cygwin bash shell -> $ nm test.o -> shows a symbol, _progstart -- how'd that underscore get in there? ah well, sure enough -> -e _progstart -> and LD doesn't spit out an entry point warning any more :D 19:16:47 --- nick: gpf -> gpf|away 19:34:32 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 19:43:30 --- join: karingo (karingo@103.portland-05-10rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #osdev 19:46:13 --- quit: karingo (Client Quit) 19:50:39 --- join: rk (~rk@gen3-camarillo8-206.vnnyca.adelphia.net) joined #osdev 19:50:57 --- join: karingo (karingo@103.portland-05-10rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #osdev 19:54:59 in my os, the bootsector sets up protected mode, then does this: jmp 0x08:0x01000 and that's where bochs crashes. help...? 19:56:16 --- quit: karingo () 20:03:15 --- quit: quantis (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 20:17:07 rk: iirc, that'd be the 9th segment selector, offset 0x1000 20:18:12 right? :P 20:19:18 you may need to try a few different settings for the flags in that selector, maybe a flag's wrong 20:20:59 mrd: ? 20:21:10 the flags in that descriptor, rather :P 20:21:41 you did setup your gdt, right? 20:24:05 in real mode, the value in your segment register directly cooresponds to a physical address in memory, but in pmode, the segment register is an index into the Global Descriptor Table, which is a list of Segment Descriptors, each of which contains the base address & flags identifying that segment.. 20:25:17 do you know any of this stuff? 20:28:51 ah, looks like idrc :P 0x08 points to the 2nd descriptor, index 1... 20:31:22 --- nick: mrd -> mrd|sleep 20:32:09 hehe no ; 20:32:11 i set up a gdt... 20:33:08 ya.. 20:33:38 this was my code descriptor 20:33:38 DD 0000FFFFh ; Linear Code segment (4GB) 20:33:38 DD 00CF9A00h ; 1 1 00 1111 1 00 1 1010 0000 0000 ; base: 0h 20:34:37 i don't remember what all the flags are, but i spaced them out so i could read them easily when comparing to intel documentation on descriptors 20:37:04 --- join: karingo (karingo@103.portland-05-10rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #osdev 20:43:51 --- join: trans (~trans@fatwire-201-207.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 20:49:30 --- quit: karingo () 20:55:48 --- join: karingo (karingo@67.portland-13-14rs.or.dial-access.att.net) joined #osdev 20:55:58 mrd|sleep: hrm 20:59:53 --- quit: acme (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 21:07:21 --- quit: karingo () 21:52:18 * rk is away: Gotta go, I'll be back around 5pm Pacific Time tomorrow (in case you care, which you probably don't) 21:54:29 --- quit: rk (Remote closed the connection) 22:01:07 --- join: air (asd@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #osdev 22:01:15 hi honey, im home! 22:10:21 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 22:12:48 air: we are not your wife! 22:15:25 --- join: mur (~mur@216.105.160.17) joined #osdev 22:15:30 lo 22:16:24 sup 22:17:42 :) 22:18:05 ? 22:19:02 well :) to you too 22:19:25 this new setup sucks 22:19:46 i moved computer to different room with flourescent lights 22:20:21 my reflection on the screen is overpowering the image 22:21:18 --- quit: MBit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 22:22:42 maybe it works like that hmm.. what ever light and makes you happy? :) 22:24:56 I'd definately want to sleep.. but i cant :( 22:26:34 --- join: geist (~geist@tkgeisel.com) joined #osdev 22:27:40 bah! who gave permission to shut down QDB! 22:40:16 --- quit: malenfant ("Client Exiting") 22:42:12 huhuu? 22:54:31 wake up! 23:07:54 --- join: trans (~trans@fatwire-201-207.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 23:16:38 --- quit: mur ("[CGI:IRC 0.4] - Pure HTTP chat from www.mouselike.org [EOF]") 23:22:05 --- join: Divine (~john@12-246-112-182.client.attbi.com) joined #osdev 23:27:24 --- join: miro (~miro@picknicker.codeon.de) joined #osdev 23:45:56 --- nick: geist -> geist-sleep 23:48:12 --- quit: air ("CRIA 0.2.7cvs4 -- http://cria.sf.net") 23:57:57 --- join: air (~brand@12-254-199-50.client.attbi.com) joined #osdev 23:59:59 --- log: ended osdev/02.10.21