00:00:00 --- log: started osdev/03.03.14 00:00:02 --- log: started osdev/03.03.14 00:00:02 :( 00:00:26 I caught a cold recently, but it's not that bad., 00:05:13 --- quit: d0minus (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 00:05:37 :\ 00:05:49 :) 00:06:11 It's sunny outside here. One of the first spring days... 00:06:26 They said it's getting warm, up to 10C this afternoon! >:) 00:06:28 heh 00:06:35 woah! 00:06:38 Remember .se != .es though :P 00:08:01 * lynx_dr is trying to record a guitar song 00:08:09 :P 00:10:20 :) 00:10:21 Have fun 00:11:19 Robert: the doctor gave me morphium yesterday:)) 00:13:16 Ooh! 00:13:22 Now you'll become a heroinist, cool. 00:13:26 lol 00:13:27 no 00:13:30 I told you not to smoke that pot@$#! 00:13:32 i was pretty drugged 00:13:36 ;) 00:13:37 --- quit: Mathis (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 00:13:42 it is more vil than marihuana just that your mind is clear 00:13:50 but it didnt really help against the pain :( ?! 00:13:53 vil -> evil? 00:13:57 :( 00:14:05 ja 00:15:25 You should've brought a joint :P "just in case..." 00:15:44 loll 00:15:49 well 00:15:57 medicin + joint = death 00:16:29 kinda i know ppl who took a waek pain reliever and they smoked a joint 10 mins after they had psychosises etc 00:17:56 Un-good. 00:18:27 Being insane outside IRC can't be good 00:19:01 agreed 00:20:54 Guess that's why everyone hates me.. oh, well. 00:20:59 * Robert codes. 00:21:17 School in about 1.5 hours though 00:21:44 ah 00:21:47 i have a test today 00:21:50 but i dont go to schoo 00:22:09 i am too drugged and i am feeling pain, i fear that i would be unable to concentrate at all 00:22:13 :( 00:22:28 so i have to rewrite 2 tests 00:22:38 I did a chemistry test after having had a nightmare and 1 hour of sleep :P 00:22:46 Got almost full score o_O 00:23:04 Although it was veery close... :P 00:23:07 i am now like 40% :/ 00:23:14 I'm over-using smileys... :( 00:23:16 ya 00:23:17 40%? 00:23:18 you suq 00:23:20 yeah.. 00:23:24 What? 00:23:26 i never get above 60% in my tests 00:23:44 60% correctly answered questions? 00:23:49 because i forget really easily what i learnt and i am not the smartest either 00:23:52 ja 00:23:54 Oh :( 00:24:07 so 00:24:07 I only remember things that are (a) Interesting, (b) useless enough. 00:24:15 i might have problems entering university 00:24:19 :(( 00:24:23 :/ 00:24:53 Got some coure litterature by mail yesterday :) 00:24:56 maybe i can tell the professors that i am really enthusiastic about computers and i can at least show that i have some experience.. not as much as you do but at least something 00:25:23 It's good.. since I do math courses at the uni., but go to another school, in some magical way they pay the books and let me do whatever I want. 00:25:34 Buerocracy doesn't have to be bad! :P 00:25:53 Bah 00:25:58 yawn 00:26:05 Robert: heh 00:26:06 You 0wnz me when it comes to most computer-related stuff. 00:26:06 oh shit my country is going to shit 00:26:14 Yeah? 00:26:17 geist: iraq? 00:26:17 where should I move to? I only know English 00:26:26 .za 00:26:27 :) 00:26:30 geist : Spain 00:26:31 heh 00:26:43 I should move to new zealand 00:26:56 marbella or something 00:27:24 I'm ashamed of my country right now. I get this way every time I watch the news 00:27:42 where're you from? 00:27:43 I'm sorry guys, we're not all a bunch of fucking ignorant assholes 00:27:58 US 00:28:04 geist: well 00:28:12 geist: europe is nearly getting close to the US now 00:28:17 geist: Really? I thought you all were old, white males in the oil business, enjoying shooting innocent iraqis. 00:28:22 yeah, you're probably right 00:28:26 geist : did you read the clash of civilisations? 00:28:31 And, yes. lynx_dr is right 00:28:31 nope 00:28:38 Spain's evil, too ;) 00:28:54 Bombing Serbia, supporting the U.S. etc. 00:28:56 Robert : nope... only the gov 00:29:05 geist : it is interesting, it says that after cold war there is no more a fight between idologies but between cultures 00:29:08 darkito: No! Each one of you! ;) 00:29:38 geist : it also says that the western world is on decay... our politics are decaying as welll as our economy 00:29:45 we're too silly to make our own desions 00:29:52 s/make/take 00:30:06 Seriously, I know you guys aren't fanatic morons. But when I speak about our countries, I referer to the governments of course. 00:30:18 geist : moreoever it makes clear that our way of thinking that a liberal democracy is the high point of any social/politic system is wrong 00:30:49 you bet 00:30:54 lynx_dr: What is the goal? 00:31:07 Since our model obviously is not. 00:31:13 geist : so, therefore it is not true that a culture wants individualism like we do 00:31:16 and what pisses me off is the current rash of folks that want to boycott the french if they veto the UN vote 00:31:22 yeah 00:31:27 on the other hand, that will pass 00:31:32 yeah 00:31:36 you know what pisses me off? 00:31:42 it's just folks trying to use the conflict to better themselves 00:31:44 --- join: witten (~witten@adsl-gte-la-216-86-199-140.mminternet.com) joined #osdev 00:31:46 that fucking media that are so fucking pro america 00:31:50 i mean 00:31:53 look at germany 00:32:02 it is the only country that said from the beginning no to war 00:32:15 because of that france changed its oppinion and russia did 00:32:22 so did russia* 00:32:26 well, I doubt that the media anywhere else is impartial 00:32:27 french is only interested in take as oil as it can 00:32:43 france is great 00:32:48 * s_parlane goes to watch star gate 00:32:51 france even 00:33:05 it is nice to see the old enemy of germany (as well as germany was the old enemy of france) is getting close to germany 00:33:31 it's just a bunch of crap. the gears that run the engines are just sooo out in the open this time 00:33:31 but the german media say something like "the relations to america are getting worse and therefore we have to go with the US" 00:33:36 france said not to war before, because they've several oil wells in Iraq 00:33:52 lynx_dr: Heh, really? All big medias, or? 00:33:53 as does lots of europe, that's a bad argument 00:34:01 Robert: most of them 00:34:07 Hrm. 00:34:09 Filthy germans .:P 00:34:11 Robert: they are also medias that support the opposition 00:34:21 because of the opposition, germany is on stand still 00:34:32 the point is that the media supports anything. it should be impartial 00:34:46 but that just doesn't happen nor is it realistic to expect that to happen 00:34:48 the opposition is nearly as big as the current administration 00:34:50 Right... as if that would ever happen. 00:34:53 geist: how can it be impartial when it is owned by moneyed interests? 00:34:57 ok 00:34:57 so they BLOCK EVERYTHING THAT MIGHT LEAD TO BETTER ECONOMY 00:34:59 yep 00:35:04 :,( 00:35:09 uh... I must be off 00:35:10 laer 00:35:12 later 00:35:14 you know what is funny? 00:35:15 Bye darkito 00:35:17 --- quit: darkito ("wadafu") 00:35:23 No, tell us. 00:35:43 the opposition is trying to make the president look like that he is responisbnle for the bad relations to america and also the econemy 00:35:58 so they are probably trying to make a err misstrust veto 00:36:01 and kick him out 00:36:07 i expect that to happen in a year or so 00:36:19 so they will use him as skapegoat 00:36:31 he is responsible for much of the present bad will towards the bush administration 00:37:04 i should also add that the opposition is a pile of crap, when they are in the media they just put the administration down but dont make any good proposals or anything 00:37:27 their niveau is alsoquite low 00:38:06 it is like they are only trying to reach ppl like that are pretty dull and easy to maipulate 00:38:08 its shit 00:38:11 btw 00:38:21 That's the easy way. 00:38:24 what makes me even more unhappy is all the shit about DRM etc 00:38:25 yep 00:38:31 Guess why you get stupid porn spam every day? ;) 00:38:34 there are lots of dull and easy to manipulate 00:38:39 yeah 00:38:46 DRM = ? 00:38:48 geist : what is your oppinion about the DRM stuff 00:38:54 digital right management 00:38:56 I have no opinion 00:39:07 I haven't researched it enough to make a decent opinion 00:39:08 geist : or the "total information awareness" act ? 00:39:09 is this osdev air your complaints day? 00:39:24 witten: you're right, I'm sorry I got it started 00:39:26 because if so, I've got a few :) 00:39:37 geist: no problem.. just making an observation 00:39:44 lynx_dr: What's that= 00:40:13 Robert: it is an office in america that has the power to restrict information in america 00:40:25 wait i give you the link to the abadonned logo 00:40:30 it looks like the illuminati sign 00:40:33 REALLY SCARY 00:40:35 REALLY 00:40:54 and on top of that is the phrase "scientia est potentia" and "DARPA" 00:41:02 darpa is the military 00:41:43 Restrict what information, and how= 00:41:45 http://www.stop-fascism.org/images/oia.GIF 00:41:50 i am not sure 00:41:59 Like.."unpatriotic opinion.. let's jaim him", or just..something else? 00:42:03 but basically all information that could be used by a terronetwork 00:42:07 hmm, sounds like you've givin us a really impartial view of that 00:42:09 Heh. 00:42:18 Could be used..? 00:42:19 or that could lead to unstability in the current politivcs 00:42:26 Heh. 00:42:29 geist: sure 00:42:31 * Robert thinks of Stalin. 00:42:48 geist : i didnt look for more info 00:43:14 but a comrade of me made a report abtou the restriction of civil rights that came witht he bush adminsitration 00:43:25 among that was alot stuff that sounded like STASI 00:43:28 I like their way of declaring war on everything, and thereby avoid all laws. 00:43:29 I'm less worried about that, as the administration uses up whatever good will they had, the people have gotten much more wary of that stuff 00:43:34 i dunno if you know what STASI is 00:43:42 an americans aren't big on giving up privacy to start with 00:43:59 I'm more concerned with the US going about invading countries because they feel like it 00:44:06 it gives basically your nieghbor the right to inform the police/fbi if he thinks you are involved in terrorist action 00:44:23 lynx_dr: Can't he do that already? 00:44:24 it gives him the right to observe you 00:44:27 Heh 00:44:34 like monitor you 00:44:36 quite scary 00:44:38 That makes me think of Gestapo, suddenly. 00:44:47 STASI 00:44:51 That, too. 00:45:10 And various .su institutions. 00:45:30 geist : most stuff is already released , some other stuff is still being elaborated 00:45:43 geist : but europa is on that way, too 00:46:02 geist : well what i think what is the most scary stuff is that the industry has too much power on the administration 00:46:43 they are able to put so much pressure on the administration that they are forced ot make law enforcments towards the industry's will 00:46:49 no, I'm personally worried much more about attacking countries because we feel like it 00:47:00 and using up whatever good will we had 00:47:15 yes 00:47:25 but that is also an industry issue 00:47:32 fine, but I dont like it 00:47:37 of course 00:47:42 it is pure shit 00:47:47 anyway 00:47:49 anyway, gonna go 00:47:52 must sleep 00:47:57 ok 00:48:03 Night. 00:48:10 --- nick: geist -> geist-sleep 00:48:11 anyway i think democracy is now just a buzzzwork 00:48:15 buzzword 00:48:20 Indeed 00:48:20 it is an illusion 00:48:36 Robert: how is sweden acting towards the digital right management etc? 00:48:41 lynx_dr, do you (.de-ers) have any 'prisoners' at gunatanamo? 00:48:49 Acting? Sweden? :D 00:48:58 ... 00:49:05 gunatanamo ? 00:49:18 sorry :( dunno that... no bell gins 00:49:18 Yeah, where they keep all DANGEROUS TERRORISTS. 00:49:23 oh 00:49:25 guantanamo 00:49:26 no i dont think so 00:49:30 yeah 00:49:32 OK, there's a swede there.. 00:49:37 they keep the terrorists like dogs 00:49:39 Lots of media coverage about that 00:49:40 like shit 00:49:41 Right. 00:49:46 The "terrorists". 00:49:50 yeah 00:49:52 :( 00:50:02 reminds me of the anarchy cookbook 00:50:04 Without charges or any kind of evidence, yay. 00:50:05 you know that? 00:50:07 No. 00:50:27 it is a book full of instrucctions how to buld bombs etc with stuff you find in your household 00:50:46 --- join: trans (uzrnkk@fatwire-201-214.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 00:50:54 it is also said that the fbi releases such instructions 00:51:18 but they changed them in that way that they explode when building them so they can get rid of potential terrorists 00:51:21 strange , eh? 00:51:25 Hahah 00:51:34 btw 00:51:44 there have been some ppl arrested because they had this book 00:51:54 and built one of the the small firework-like bombs 00:52:06 Well, that's still illegal. 00:52:16 But if they execute them for being terrorists.... 00:52:16 there is one that can be built from a tennis-ball and some checmicals.. doenst do much just a loud bang 00:52:26 you want the book :P 00:52:28 ? 00:52:33 No. 00:52:34 Heh 00:52:38 it is distributed in electronic form :P 00:52:42 A guy I know made quite a lot of explosives 00:52:46 Yesterday... 00:52:53 --- quit: mrd (Connection timed out) 00:53:21 heh 00:53:29 he blew himself up? 00:53:29 He got a headache, high feber, his hands got white etc.. for some reason :) Lots of funny chemicals he played with 00:53:32 Not really. 00:53:42 he became a bomb! 00:53:46 Right! 00:54:05 i am afraid of becomeing that, too ... thinking of all the medicaments i took 00:54:09 I think he got like 0.5kg of ATCP at his room. 00:54:16 atcp? 00:54:32 Well.. you don't want half a kg of that under your bed. :) 00:54:47 radioactive shit? 00:54:50 ... 00:54:52 Explosive. 00:54:56 ah 00:54:56 ic 00:55:14 i found an instruction on how to build a small nuclear bomb :P 00:55:17 Not good... 00:55:20 Pfff 00:55:27 it think it is jut difficult to get 10KG of plutonium :P 00:55:30 You got any Pu on your back yard= 00:55:33 Hehe 00:55:38 no 00:55:39 heh 00:55:49 not to mention that it is fregging expensive 00:56:22 Right 00:56:31 Anyway, people do stupid things 00:56:40 y i think 00:56:52 And have lots of dangerous stuff on their rooms :) 00:56:54 nostly because of stupid visions 00:57:04 Explosives, drugs etc. etc. 00:57:09 Stupid visions? 00:57:15 therfore i think visions are the most dangerous stuff that exists 00:57:18 yeah 00:57:19 like 00:57:22 anarchy 00:57:28 or any other politc system 00:57:33 or just take the 3rd reich 00:57:47 Hrm 00:58:02 they had a vision of total power but at the expense of others freedom/life 00:58:08 You got to have some sort of a vision. 00:58:13 yes 00:58:19 Can't just "oh.. got to obey..leader." 00:58:20 but a vision is also dangerous 00:58:23 Yes. 00:58:27 Especially if it's insane :) 00:58:31 yes 00:58:40 but you cannot differ form insane vision or sane 00:58:42 one 00:58:53 Right 00:59:03 But you can try ;) 00:59:09 how? 00:59:24 Using common sense... although we'll all come to different conclusions. 00:59:33 only if you have an all-conistitent and all-valid value system 00:59:38 you dont have that 00:59:41 it is not possible 00:59:41 Nope. 00:59:47 nope what? 00:59:53 But, we can aim for some goals. 00:59:56 you need a standard to differ from that 01:00:00 no we cant 01:00:00 Like, freedom for the individual or whatever. 01:00:13 there are cultures that would say the oppoiste 01:00:18 Of course. 01:00:21 that is just the western civ that wants that 01:00:32 But that doesn't stop _us_ from wanting it. 01:00:32 Bah 01:00:35 No they don't :P 01:00:55 but you cannot differ if OUR VISION is insane 01:01:15 as well as you cannot differ that a radical group is sane from the view of their culture 01:01:19 Nope. I never said we could. 01:01:55 But we can fight for our goals. 01:01:56 and the resume isa? 01:02:08 Which of course is bad, if it turns out that we're insane.. :) 01:02:12 as long as they dont interfer with other goals, yeah 01:02:20 "other goals"? 01:02:24 yeah 01:02:32 the goals of other cultures/groups 01:02:36 Oh. 01:02:39 Not really. 01:03:08 no? 01:03:15 why not? 01:03:29 If e.g. the US people enjoys starting wars, I don't think it's wrong to limit their 'right' to do so. 01:03:49 they restrict the freedom of others 01:04:07 that is a SIN concerning human rights 01:04:14 Says who? :) 01:04:26 un 01:04:36 They suck :) 01:04:45 and any sane human sense of ethics 01:04:50 I mean... economical freedom usually leads to less individual freedom. 01:04:51 well 01:04:58 So, I don't beleive in total freedom. 01:05:05 Oh, yeah? 01:05:12 there is no local freedom 01:05:14 err 01:05:16 total 01:05:18 So why haven't there been any real democracies then? 01:05:44 Most countries have more or less been _ruled_, paying little or no respect to personal freedom. 01:05:49 because there are always a certain amount of determination 01:05:58 So, "and any sane human sense of ethics", is not true 01:06:04 BECAUSE A REAL DEMOCRACY DOESNT _WORK_ 01:06:19 it works for a group of 100ppl 01:06:22 but not 80 mio 01:06:30 Most countries haven't been democractic in any way. 01:06:36 Kingdoms, dictatures... 01:06:45 well 01:06:53 I don't want total anarchy. 01:06:53 some countries dont want democracy 01:07:25 democracy is only the best system for _us_, the western civilisation 01:07:31 look at the arab countries 01:07:38 they are happy if they have a leader 01:07:43 that is good that way 01:07:48 because they are happy with it 01:07:52 and because it works 01:07:58 and because it fits their mentality 01:08:09 Heh. 01:08:18 why heh? 01:08:50 "They like being rules by violent dictators. Why not let them?" 01:09:00 no 01:09:06 that is something different 01:09:18 that is against theri system , too 01:09:24 but they migfht want to have a king 01:09:51 Right, the good dictator. 01:10:10 dont make fun of me 01:10:13 look 01:10:23 dont forget that there are different CULTURES 01:10:29 with a different mentality 01:11:09 just because those culutres act economically in an international way, just because they produce modern electronic devices, doesnt mean that they are likely to like the western values 01:11:56 the problem concerning all that with our world is that THEY AND _WE_ have to understnad that and keep it in mind 01:12:02 Right, but some people were brought up by hitlerjugend, some were brought up in the USSR... they also 'want' a strong leader. 01:12:03 we have top _practise_ tollerance 01:12:17 Robert: that is a different culture 01:12:25 What? 01:12:35 that is the western culture 01:12:48 germany and partially the russia 01:12:59 for us it works 01:13:01 My point is that anyone could be raised to do and think just about anything. 01:13:07 for any other culture it is not said to work 01:13:15 Robert: yes. true 01:13:21 Robert: that is what i am saying, too 01:13:51 Robert: but dont think that "thinkign about anything"= having a democratic system and western values 01:14:03 ? 01:14:10 I dind't understand that last sentence. 01:14:20 look 01:15:05 the problem is that most ppl thinkg that ... " anyone could be raised to do and think just about anything" means that they are explecitely practising a democratic system which prpagates individualism 01:15:10 but that is OUR view 01:16:45 do you understand? 01:17:06 Not really... _/ 01:17:09 * Robert feels stupdi 01:17:26 i think i am not good at explaining things 01:17:34 the problem is the value system, right? 01:17:52 it is basically the scale for our evaluation of everythign we do etc.. 01:17:54 yes? 01:18:13 Right. 01:18:46 threfore we cannot say that individualilsm as _we_ experience and practise it is the right way for other cultures 01:18:50 we = western culture 01:19:04 others = for example islam culture 01:19:09 so 01:19:17 Of course not. 01:19:22 We're all equally wrong. 01:19:40 if you say that everypne has the right to be raised and do whatever he wants, you have to keep that fact in mind 01:19:41 yes 01:19:43 But that doesn't mean we're not supposed to try to convince others to follow the 'right way' 01:19:52 no 01:19:54 we should not 01:20:04 because we are forcing others to do what we do in the end 01:20:14 and because it is not part of their culture 01:20:24 every culture should develop individually 01:20:26 look 01:20:32 Cultures cause pain. 01:20:34 you know the asia culture 01:20:37 lol 01:20:40 ---> cultures are no good. 01:20:47 why? 01:21:01 stuff like globalism is a lie 01:21:04 look 01:21:09 it is a _fact_ 01:21:10 I don't have any respect for "cultures"... if they do any harm, they suck. 01:21:18 If they don't, well... good. 01:21:35 If they do more good than harm, we'll have to live with that. 01:21:41 that lets sday a different culture tries to adopt the western way of economy so they gain wealth 01:21:42 But we should try to change. 01:21:45 BUT 01:21:55 this doesnt mean that they are also adopting our way of life 01:22:02 they usually do for a vertain time 01:22:16 but you know what is the proven result of that? 01:22:24 anti westernism 01:22:26 Of what= 01:22:36 Oh. 01:22:37 of adopting our living styl 01:22:42 I didn't say our culture is good. 01:22:43 It's not. 01:22:47 it is proven that it goes that way 01:22:51 yeah 01:22:53 Just look at the world. 01:23:00 yea 01:23:20 the world isnt devided into ideologies anymore 01:23:32 there is no real fifht between communism and democracy 01:23:35 so 01:23:43 the next step is a "fight" between the cultures 01:23:53 or a concurrence at least 01:23:57 what i am saying is 01:24:19 err 01:24:29 Hmm 01:24:35 that if a culture forces another culture to adopt its living style end in a total desaster 01:25:03 I'm not talking about "forcing", unless that culture in question is staring a war or someting (...) 01:25:07 cultures are totally incompatible... sure they have soemthign in common such as the economy 01:25:53 Hrm. 01:26:09 Cultures vary almost as much between individuals, as between continents. 01:26:21 I mean, the basic values are very individual. 01:26:32 Robert: yeah... but the way of suggesting another culture your living style... i mean in a way that you say that your culutre is a holy grail and they are accepting it and following it blindly... means that there is a movement starting agains the other culture 01:26:37 Sure, the majority decides what "our" values are.. 01:26:45 But still, many are of different opinions. 01:26:59 yes 01:27:01 Heh. 01:27:10 but look at the islam countries 01:27:16 That's like... imperialism :P 01:27:24 their religion is very much included into their country 01:27:35 No good. But I think there are some basic values that are above any culture. 01:27:36 so they have stronger oppinions about all that 01:27:49 Like, the right not to be killed, etc. 01:28:01 yes 01:28:02 And maybe a certain amount of personal freedom. 01:28:08 i disnt neglect that 01:28:15 Although many "cultures" don't accept that. 01:28:39 nono 01:28:55 the believe that you have the right to live is everywhere 01:28:57 in any cvulture 01:29:02 even animals have that 01:29:20 the problem is that even one abstraction layer higher... you might get in troubles 01:29:21 No. 01:29:33 Really, it's not. 01:29:38 Not that everyone should kill each other. 01:29:39 why? 01:29:53 i am saying that every one wants to live 01:30:00 But look at the christians, "thou shalt not kill! unless ..." 01:30:15 ye 01:30:19 Unless they don't obey the church, unless they don't steal, unless... 01:30:23 er 01:30:25 the koran says that,too 01:30:25 they steal* 01:30:26 :P 01:30:42 That means, they don't respect human lifes. 01:30:51 ? 01:30:56 i think i dont understand you 01:31:07 I mean, the right to live isn't as obvious. 01:31:29 Many people don't accept it. 01:31:52 ? 01:31:59 i think it is 01:32:01 Of course, they need some kind of a reason to kill you. But that could be anything, you cheated on your wife, you didn't obey your leader... 01:32:04 give me an exaple 01:32:08 yes 01:32:16 but that is as i said included in their culture 01:32:22 Exactly. 01:32:26 and their religion 01:32:29 But if killing people is included in a culture... 01:32:30 Is that good?= 01:32:54 if it is part of their culture... woudl an oppisite system work out necessarily? 01:33:25 They could ban death penalty, for example. 01:33:33 ok 01:33:35 I don't think that would ruin the world 01:33:39 IF they want it 01:34:00 We like to stone heathens! Yeeee-haaaa! 01:34:15 lnyx_dr and Robert are you writing os's ? 01:34:31 Robert: lol 01:34:37 No, we're discussing cultures. 01:34:42 ya 01:34:47 And I'll have to leave for school in 10 minutes. 01:34:52 Robert: you are partially right 01:35:06 Robert: but the problem is that freedome is always restricted 01:35:37 and that you are always restricted to a certain err well area which gives you freedom 01:35:38 hrm 01:35:39 ok 01:35:42 lemme rephrase that 01:35:50 :D 01:35:58 freedom is always restricted to a certain amount, yes? 01:36:07 this is called determination 01:36:18 OK.. 01:36:21 determination can be biological 01:36:26 (like if you are diabled) 01:36:31 it can be social 01:36:38 (cultures/policy) 01:36:50 and psychological (ones values and wishes) 01:36:52 etc 01:37:01 if you live in another culture 01:37:33 which want to have a king as leader 01:37:41 means that for our view freedom will be restricted 01:37:46 but for them that is ok 01:38:01 since in their restrictions they are still free to choose what they want 01:38:15 If the king was a nice man, and everyone, EVERYONE, wanted a dictatorship - sure. 01:38:22 of course death panality is bad 01:38:45 Robert: if the religion says so and the culture is very much bound on religion? 01:39:00 i think then everyone wants it or at least the vast majority 01:39:16 Well... that doesn't make things better. 01:39:31 It's like, is 90% supposed to be able to oppress 10%? 01:39:50 isnt that the problem with democracy , too? 01:39:54 Even if they WANT to do that, and think it's RIGHT, are they really supposed to be doing that? 01:40:03 yes# 01:40:10 Democracy is usually combined with some individual freedom. 01:40:25 I.e. We can decide how much tax you pay, but we can't like kill or torture you. 01:40:42 Some people rather get killed than pay tax, but that's another story :P 01:40:51 Anyway, I should leave now... 01:40:56 Viva la revolution!@$ 01:41:27 VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!! 01:41:36 Robert: thanks for the discussion 01:42:33 --- quit: witten ("bye") 01:53:36 --- join: cock- (jrydberg@night.trouble.net) joined #osdev 02:01:20 --- part: cock- left #osdev 02:18:44 --- join: Prophet_ (Prophet@pD958D28D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 02:18:45 --- quit: s_parlane (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 02:24:40 --- join: s_parlane (~scott@tnt1-288.quicksilver.net.nz) joined #osdev 02:27:17 --- quit: trans (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 02:34:26 --- join: cookin- (jrydberg@night.trouble.net) joined #osdev 02:36:34 --- quit: dax (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 02:39:31 http://www.osdev.org/board.jsp?message=3137 02:39:36 Ain't they funny? 03:11:01 * Robert kollar. 03:11:25 Haha. 03:11:26 Right 03:11:38 lynx_dr: No problem :) 03:21:49 --- quit: Boney ("bye") 03:28:52 --- quit: cookin- (Remote closed the connection) 03:42:11 ah 03:42:16 * lynx_dr is back from docotr 03:46:52 hi all 03:47:02 hey 03:47:11 lynx_dr: what did he say? 03:48:13 well 03:48:19 he said it could become worse 03:48:21 with my ear 03:48:28 :( 03:48:32 so i will need more morphium heh 03:48:44 i was like shaking after he finished his procedure 03:48:48 caused alot of pain 03:48:52 ahh... 03:50:09 * file frowns 03:50:45 * lynx_dr licks file 03:50:58 * file cries 03:50:58 wow... file is like one of these djungle-frogs 03:51:03 you know these? 03:51:17 they are poisoned, the indians there lick them to get high :P 03:51:19 uh huh 03:51:48 very interesting 03:52:09 one more day... I can make it 03:53:02 eh? 03:53:11 school 03:57:23 ok 03:57:40 * lynx_dr had to take a test today at school ... but he didnt went to school 03:58:05 * file must go now 03:58:14 enjoy 03:58:20 I will... attempt to do so 03:59:25 * lynx_dr tickles file 04:01:27 --- join: dax (dax@u212-239-207-167.adsl.pi.be) joined #osdev 04:05:55 --- join: trans (roiypm@fatwire-201-214.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 04:35:29 --- quit: dh ("Fhtagn-Nagh Yog Sothoth") 04:36:46 --- join: dh (~gfafgawrg@80-235-55-54-dsl.kjj.estpak.ee) joined #osdev 04:46:05 --- quit: dax (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:53:32 --- join: df (~yakumo@host81-132-53-126.in-addr.btopenworld.com) joined #osdev 04:53:44 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 04:54:32 --- join: Zenton (~vicente@8.Red-80-34-35.pooles.rima-tde.net) joined #osdev 04:54:46 afternoons fellas 05:06:44 Hi :) 05:15:16 --- quit: keyhack ("Client Exiting") 05:22:16 --- quit: nickname03 (Remote closed the connection) 05:28:44 --- join: revanthn (revanthn@202.9.183.170) joined #osdev 05:39:39 --- quit: Prophet_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 05:42:46 --- join: keyhack (~keyhack@64-215-24-229.mon.frontiernet.net) joined #osdev 05:45:23 --- join: Prophet_ (~Prophet@pD958D28D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 06:00:48 --- quit: Prophet_ ("Client exiting") 06:04:14 --- join: Prophet_ (~Prophet@pD958D28D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 06:05:13 --- quit: revanthn () 06:05:51 --- quit: lynx_dr (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 06:06:00 --- join: dax (dax@u212-239-207-167.adsl.pi.be) joined #osdev 06:07:07 --- quit: keyhack ("Client Exiting") 06:10:02 --- join: Mathis (irc@manz-d9b95096.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #osdev 06:10:25 re 06:14:18 --- join: phun (~minir0x@AMontsouris-105-1-2-46.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #osdev 06:14:24 hello 06:14:38 hello 06:16:05 --- join: GoNoGo (~Penal@195.83.179.71) joined #osdev 06:17:20 --- join: trans (wytpqm@fatwire-201-214.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 06:56:44 --- quit: Mathis ("baball") 07:00:36 i cant understand why my kernel works with bochs, but not with vmware or on a real boot 07:05:15 --- join: dent (~rejsor@h28n5c1o254.bredband.skanova.com) joined #osdev 07:05:16 --- quit: dax (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 07:08:21 --- join: Popsickle (~felix@D5E0AA21.kabel.telenet.be) joined #osdev 07:09:02 because bochs is more forgiving than real silicon sometimes 07:09:37 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 07:09:47 yes 07:24:34 --- quit: phun ("sgfd") 07:29:35 --- join: wossname (wossname@HSE-QuebecCity-ppp82195.qc.sympatico.ca) joined #osdev 07:40:51 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust245.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #osdev 08:08:24 --- quit: I440r (Excess Flood) 08:08:38 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust245.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #osdev 08:13:38 --- quit: Popsickle (Remote closed the connection) 08:22:01 --- join: dax (dax@u212-239-207-167.adsl.pi.be) joined #osdev 08:26:25 --- join: trans (ofwsbi@fatwire-201-214.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 08:31:17 --- quit: df ("syntax: ja matte ne!") 08:35:30 --- join: BAft (~someone@zulu77.xs4all.nl) joined #osdev 08:57:03 --- quit: file (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 09:03:30 --- quit: dax (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 09:03:56 --- join: mur (jukka@baana-62-165-188-58.phnet.fi) joined #osdev 09:05:34 --- quit: trans (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 09:07:25 --- quit: Prophet_ ("Windows XP: Das Betriebssystem für Leute, die Evolution immer noch nicht begriffen haben.") 09:07:30 --- join: Prophet_ (~Prophet@pD958D28D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 09:12:39 --- quit: BAft (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:16:05 --- join: phun (~minir0x@AMontsouris-105-1-2-16.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #osdev 09:37:09 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again") 09:50:28 --- join: Mathis (irc@manz-d9b94907.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #osdev 09:51:03 --- join: revanthn (revanthn@202.9.183.189) joined #osdev 09:51:35 re 09:51:59 re 09:52:11 now the fun starts 09:52:43 ha ha ha 09:52:44 hello revanthn and Mathis and phun and Robert and kemu and dent and geqo and all others who were not listed 09:52:57 hi mur :) 09:53:06 hey mur 09:54:27 ..hi jukka 09:55:23 how did the writing go geqo 09:55:23 ? 09:56:23 it goes fine, i didn't finish it yesterday though 10:08:26 --- quit: wossname ("no life no wife no tv blah blah lahla b chaos") 10:10:09 --- join: lynx_dr (~lodsb@pD95440AF.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 10:11:00 der lynx 10:11:43 der mur 10:12:22 die mathis 10:13:33 lecker Arsch 10:14:54 you shoudl use toilet paper instead 10:15:24 I am gonna use you instead of toilet paper 10:17:18 that is not possible 10:17:22 use your hand 10:17:30 (left one suggested) 10:18:27 sure, it is possible to use mur 10:18:40 that is not possible 10:19:19 wanna see? 10:19:33 that is not possible 10:19:43 * Mathis kaggt auf murs Kopf 10:19:59 be quiet 10:20:00 that is not possible 10:20:27 --- quit: minddog ("see ya guys") 10:21:49 * Mathis macht einen großen Haufen 10:22:10 that is not possible 10:24:13 mmmh, wie das duftet... 10:24:46 that is not possible 10:25:15 und mur ist der dumme 10:25:26 you are 10:25:27 that is not possible 10:26:02 --- join: NostroBO (~nostrobo@klc-research.com) joined #osdev 10:26:08 --- part: NostroBO left #osdev 10:35:34 --- join: trans (ceabrx@fatwire-201-214.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 10:36:04 --- join: keyhack (~keyhack@64-215-24-229.mon.frontiernet.net) joined #osdev 10:38:20 --- join: dax (dax@u212-239-207-167.adsl.pi.be) joined #osdev 10:45:09 --- quit: Mathis (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 10:49:58 --- quit: Robert ("Suicide, brb") 10:55:13 --- quit: revanthn (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 11:08:58 --- join: Kitanin (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #osdev 11:16:53 --- quit: s_parlane ("Download Gaim [http://gaim.sourceforge.net/]") 11:17:59 --- nick: geist-sleep -> geist 11:18:16 --- join: s_parlane (~scott@tnt1-288.quicksilver.net.nz) joined #osdev 11:18:24 --- join: lodda (~Lothar@p508FD8C6.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 11:18:37 --- part: lodda left #osdev 11:19:41 yawn, time to get coffee 11:22:03 http/1.0 GET /coffee 11:22:07 no 11:22:16 GET /coffee HTTP/1.1 11:25:30 --- join: df (~yakumo@host81-132-53-126.in-addr.btopenworld.com) joined #osdev 11:25:57 --- quit: keyhack ("Client Exiting") 11:27:43 yep 11:31:33 --- join: Robert (~snofs@h138n2fls31o965.telia.com) joined #osdev 11:40:45 --- quit: dax (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:40:45 --- quit: trans (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:40:45 --- quit: mur (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:40:45 --- quit: Zenton (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:40:45 --- quit: GoNoGo (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:40:45 --- quit: SlowCoder (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 11:41:10 --- join: dax (dax@u212-239-207-167.adsl.pi.be) joined #osdev 11:41:10 --- join: trans (ceabrx@fatwire-201-214.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 11:41:10 --- join: mur (jukka@baana-62-165-188-58.phnet.fi) joined #osdev 11:41:10 --- join: GoNoGo (~Penal@195.83.179.71) joined #osdev 11:41:10 --- join: Zenton (~vicente@8.Red-80-34-35.pooles.rima-tde.net) joined #osdev 11:41:10 --- join: SlowCoder (~jja@diskmaskin.dot.tm) joined #osdev 11:41:18 :/ 11:45:14 --- quit: Prophet_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 11:50:13 --- join: Prophet_ (~Prophet@pD958D28D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 11:54:55 --- nick: geist -> geist-towork 11:55:57 --- join: file (~joshnet@mctn1-2420.nb.aliant.net) joined #osdev 11:59:54 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust83.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #osdev 12:01:40 hello 12:01:53 hi trans 12:02:04 hi phun, what's up? 12:03:01 good 12:03:02 :) 12:03:32 =) 12:06:03 transhello 12:06:12 hi trans 12:06:17 phun is fun again, a while ago phun was no fun! 12:06:31 huhu 12:06:39 :/ 12:06:48 :) 12:06:50 :) 12:06:50 i found complete tilesets for games 12:06:52 i have made 12:06:57 never used 12:07:09 and i browser earlier old photo albums 12:07:17 i found some "experimental pictures" of my fathers 12:07:22 they look very good 12:07:44 i guess there were couple of my pictures (which i took as few years old) 12:07:49 they are also good :) 12:08:20 i was quite photographer by then ;) 12:11:34 --- nick: phun -> Liux 12:11:58 another animated game figure! 12:14:43 * mur found gui idea that uses no text at all! 12:16:02 what the bloody hell is ink up to these days? 12:16:30 * trans has been reminising in the logs 12:16:38 * trans cannot spell 12:17:57 :) 12:18:11 * mur has been visual art all day 12:19:55 OH! a icon i thought was extracted from some program but was mine - 4, 5 year ago made 12:48:07 --- quit: file (Remote closed the connection) 12:50:57 --- join: witten (~witten@ip-64-32-131-193.dsl.lax.megapath.net) joined #osdev 12:53:30 --- quit: Xerroz ("changing servers") 12:56:06 hmmm... what scripting language (simple one) should i use as a shell scripting language (not a unix shell) or should i make my own? the shell cannot execute other programs yet so the lang must be entirely self contained (ls and all those would have to be implemented in it) 13:00:44 --- nick: Liux -> phun 13:02:09 --- quit: kemu ("Lost terminal") 13:04:30 i can design you own langauge 13:06:50 --- quit: Kitanin (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:06:51 --- join: Kiara (~clark@SCF61185.ab.hsia.telus.net) joined #osdev 13:08:20 no thanks 13:08:27 perhaps you could help though 13:08:49 i 'm off, bye 13:08:56 bye 13:09:06 b 13:09:13 moi trans 13:09:13 --- quit: dent (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 13:11:29 --- nick: Kiara -> Kitanin 13:15:32 --- quit: Prophet_ ("Client exiting") 13:15:44 --- join: Prophet_ (~Prophet@pD958D28D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 13:17:20 --- quit: Prophet_ (Client Quit) 13:17:28 --- join: Prophet_ (~Prophet@pD958D28D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 13:23:09 --- join: nullify (1000@pool-138-89-94-139.mad.east.verizon.net) joined #osdev 13:24:36 hello 13:24:52 hi 13:29:27 --- join: jsr (www@du-12-246.ppp.telenordia.se) joined #osdev 13:37:28 terve nullify 13:41:57 it is silent 13:42:40 mur: very silent 13:44:06 --- join: mrd (~skdjfjksj@pcp201472pcs.uprtnw01.nj.comcast.net) joined #osdev 13:44:54 ntihgn happens 13:46:50 someone say something 13:47:03 hi 13:47:22 lol 13:49:13 nunullify is active, everythign nullifies :) 13:49:29 awwww! i lost lens protector! 13:49:37 bad bad! 13:58:49 nullify? 13:58:53 s_parlane, 13:58:59 wjy dpmt yui akrl? 14:00:23 mur: hello 14:00:35 mur do u speak english ? 14:00:45 yes 14:00:50 but i have a lot of typos 14:00:58 that was: 14:01:02 why dont you talk? 14:02:08 i do talk 14:02:20 but id like it better if you came to my server 14:02:24 parlane.homeip.net 14:02:39 channels #osdev &ScottsNewOS 14:02:51 why? 14:03:10 why does someone have to register? 14:03:29 cause this channel has to many pplz 14:04:16 s_parlane collets emails for spam register >:) 14:04:27 no i dont 14:04:48 i dont even know where the logs are if any for my server 14:05:42 good to know, shall we start attack, lynx_dr?;) 14:11:08 haha 14:11:11 --- join: SynFire- (~OmegaXtre@AC80E4FB.ipt.aol.com) joined #osdev 14:11:11 --- nick: geist-towork -> geist 14:11:18 Hey 14:11:22 hey SynFire- :) 14:11:27 s_parlane: why the hell you running your own irc server? 14:11:42 are you french SynFire- ? 14:11:54 phun: nope 14:11:58 okay 14:12:05 no parle fracias 14:12:08 cause i keep getting kicked from this one and told to bugger off 14:13:33 hm 14:13:52 so you are trying to get your server linked to freenode network and then be able to be here? 14:13:52 :) 14:14:48 no 14:14:54 I'm just starting in OSDev, I was wondering what is easier to start off with (in a beginners aspect), Real Mode OS's or PMode OS's? 14:14:58 ++ all 14:15:08 terve phun 14:15:23 --- part: phun left #osdev 14:15:37 SynFire-, a good irc client with logging capacity is a good start :) 14:16:35 --- join: Ubel (~jonorn@arnarson.is) joined #osdev 14:18:01 okay, that actually gives me an idea about this room. Nevermind, I'll go elsewhere. :) 14:18:03 --- part: SynFire- left #osdev 14:18:18 s_parlane: haha, so you come here and irritate people and they kick you off, so now you want people to come to your server so you can irritate them there 14:18:25 sounds like a great plan 14:18:33 no 14:18:51 i can kick them for asking too many questions in reply to a question 14:20:45 --- join: EnCh4nt3r (SDF@212.110.85.104) joined #osdev 14:20:47 hey 14:20:48 any1 knows free webhosting site that supports php and mysql? 14:21:12 * s_parlane hosts websites with php and mysql 14:21:26 EnCh4nt3r: if by "free" you mean "free to pay for it" 14:21:40 hmm 14:21:48 no i mean free, not to pay for it =) 14:22:05 yeah i do free ($0) hosting 14:22:44 really? 14:22:50 I do free ($100) hosting. 14:23:24 i do free (NZD $63) hosting if you want a faster net connection 14:23:51 s_parlane and what con. for $0? 14:23:57 14k modem. 14:24:01 haha 14:24:04 no 14:24:17 I know a guy who wanted to start a hosting company on 56k 14:24:24 Then he got upset when we laughed at him. 14:25:46 lol 14:25:48 bob! 14:26:08 df! 14:26:10 are you talking in future tense 14:26:12 --- join: wl (philipp@pD954EA2B.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 14:29:17 --- join: kyelewis (kyelewis@client-203-166-108-219.net2000.com.au) joined #osdev 14:29:20 hey 14:29:26 kl 14:29:29 hi 14:32:39 --- quit: Kitanin ("Client killed by developer sick of answering stupid questions.") 14:35:11 --- join: Popsickle (~felix@D5E0AA21.kabel.telenet.be) joined #osdev 14:35:47 --- quit: Prophet_ ("Client exiting") 14:36:37 --- quit: I440r (Excess Flood) 14:36:42 --- quit: EnCh4nt3r (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:36:50 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust83.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #osdev 14:44:27 --- join: Aardappel (wvo96r@p508C78BB.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 14:51:06 --- join: pavlovski (~Tim@host217-44-182-103.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) joined #osdev 14:51:42 anyone having fun? 14:51:55 hehe 14:52:02 Yes! 14:52:06 not really... i'm booooored 14:52:13 --- quit: df ("syntax: ja matte ne!") 14:52:24 i was having fun 14:52:34 until i noticed that the camera didn't have any film inside 14:52:47 now i'm too tired to take good shots 14:52:56 tomorrow i might be more active 14:54:05 god damn that s_parlane guy is irritating 14:54:25 I tried to help that motherfucker and he didn't appreciate it. I wasn't being a dick at all, I just said what he didn't want to hear 14:54:33 --- quit: jsr (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 14:54:58 anyone that's ever asked me a complex question knows that I never give a straight answer, I help them find the answer themselves, it really pays off in the end 14:55:05 what is s_parlane doing? 14:55:07 hehe 14:55:16 reading an old response 14:55:17 writing an os 14:55:31 I asked him why he is running his own irc server 14:55:35 14:18 < s_parlane> i can kick them for asking too many questions in reply to a question 14:55:55 that makes my blood boil. 14:56:13 Haha! 14:56:14 I actually tried to help him before, and he'd just wander off while I was asking questions 14:56:29 what a fuckwad 14:56:41 no i just jump channels 14:56:52 --- join: icez (unity@ACBF9B93.ipt.aol.com) joined #osdev 14:56:57 that is totally irritating to people you ask questions 14:57:02 but i dont need ur help at the moment i have nicer pplz helping me 14:57:05 geist: relax :) 14:57:20 s_parlane: you need to respect geist 14:57:23 pfft 14:57:40 he *is* helping you, and is seldom wrong 14:57:48 icez hello 14:57:54 you can't have nicer than here. 14:57:54 I tried a few times, he just doesn't lke my answers so he moves on 14:57:56 terve pavlovski 14:58:00 hi mur 14:58:04 sup? 14:58:07 hi mur 14:58:09 how's with möbius? 14:58:10 my answers usually are, 'go and learn more about this first' 14:58:15 mur: ok 14:58:16 and he doesn't want to hear that 14:58:21 trying to fix a bug that's stopping a lot of people booting 14:58:22 progress? 14:58:29 not exactly 14:58:33 geist: hardly anyone does 14:58:37 just a lot of hex on a piece of paper :( 14:58:43 i ask you how to do something and you either answer with google or (insert random questions here) 14:58:45 i mean *wants* to hear that 14:58:55 s_parlane: what have you been asking? 14:59:21 how to set up preemptive multitasking 14:59:30 ok, and how far have you got? 14:59:32 --- join: kemu (~kemu@27.121-136-217.adsl.skynet.be) joined #osdev 14:59:35 --- quit: kemu (Client Quit) 14:59:35 --- join: kemu (~kemu@27.121-136-217.adsl.skynet.be) joined #osdev 14:59:56 i gave up 15:00:03 for now 15:00:12 * Robert laughs and wanders off to another channel. 15:00:13 s_parlane: I'm not inserting random questions dude, I normally am trying to figure out what you know 15:00:18 cause the code that someelse helped me with made my pc reboot 15:00:19 so that I can give you a better answer 15:00:19 how long was it between starting and giving up? 15:00:39 quiet some time 15:00:43 s_parlane: is that your _first_ triple fault? 15:00:51 no 15:00:56 hmm 15:01:08 anyway, expect to see a lot more of them, regardless of whether you wrote the code or someone else did 15:01:15 but i stoped the others 15:01:20 the other what? 15:01:35 triple faults 15:01:36 anyone that's ever asked me a question knows that I usually ask more back and lead the person to the answer, instead of just giving it to them 15:01:43 you stopped triple faults? impressive 15:01:50 did you have to use a soldering iron? 15:01:53 also I have to know what level they're at 15:02:29 yeah i just put handlers for all cpu generated ints (it stopped most of them ) 15:02:57 ok, good start 15:03:03 but you didn't stop them, you just handled them 15:03:19 the underlying problem didn't go away, you just knew what was going on, without your PC rebooting 15:03:21 hey from what I see on osdev.neopages.net is it true I need to do "_k_printf" or I can do "printf" ? 15:03:26 btw: use Bochs at this stage 15:03:41 icez: thanks for giving me that URL :) I was about to search for it 15:03:55 bochs crashes when i load my os 15:03:58 icez: which tutorial are you looking at? 15:03:59 hehe:| 15:04:04 euhm 15:04:06 s_parlane: bochs crashes, or your OS crashes? 15:04:10 i.e. what does it say? 15:04:11 Writing a Kernel in C 15:04:32 that doesn't mention _k_printf 15:04:35 * pavlovski wrote that one 15:04:39 oh 15:04:40 well 15:04:42 eh 15:04:43 wait 15:04:48 it says my os crashes 15:04:59 ok, so bochs didn't crash, your OS did 15:05:06 so... you need to fix your OS, right? 15:05:11 but i run it on a real 486dx2 and it works prefectly 15:05:22 something is still wrong with your OS 15:05:28 which is more likely: a bug in your OS or a bug in Bochs? 15:05:38 shoot 15:05:41 its the last one 15:05:43 in kernels 15:05:44 but 15:06:09 I think the answer is, "it doesn't matter" 15:06:13 bochs 15:06:19 oh? 15:06:21 so I can make "printf"? 15:06:22 you can call your output function whatever you like, _k_print or printf 15:06:28 cool 15:06:29 thanks 15:06:35 icez: that's what I do (actually wprintf, but that's the unicode version of printf) 15:06:45 s_parlane: no, the error is in your OS 15:07:09 or in the bios that bochs supplies 15:07:26 how long have you been writing your OS? 15:07:31 pavlovski: heh 15:07:39 since end of last yeah 15:07:55 ok, so that's about 3 months 15:08:01 so you've got 3 man months of work in your OS 15:08:08 well i was researching and stuff since about mid way though the year 15:08:15 I don't know how many developers there are on Bochs, but there must be at least 50 man years work in there 15:08:24 so... signs point to the bug being in your OS, not in Bochs 15:08:30 --- part: kyelewis left #osdev 15:08:40 --- join: voider|NA (voider@206.167.166.74) joined #osdev 15:08:55 assuming it's your code is always the best bet, because otherwise what do you do? 15:08:58 it works on a real pc 15:09:08 so say it is bochs, how does that help you? 15:09:17 i have no idea 15:09:34 i know who to complain to 15:10:02 i guess 15:10:13 --- join: Prophet_ (~Prophet@pD958D28D.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 15:10:21 look, take it from people that have written oses 15:10:28 it's probably 95% your code 15:10:46 there are lots of subtle differences between real hardware and emulated 15:11:07 I betcha it would fail on some other real pc, it could be a timing race, difference in the cache, etc 15:11:32 if your code works on one and not the other then most likely the one that it works on is more lax about something, that's something you'll bump into a lot when writing code 15:11:44 thats why im asking pplz to test the image at http://scottsnewos.sf.net/image.tar.gz 15:11:46 I have cases in newos where it has problems with certain dual athlons for example 15:11:52 --- join: Rico (~pen@node-c-1c6a.a2000.nl) joined #osdev 15:11:56 Hoi, Rico! 15:12:09 --- part: nullify left #osdev 15:12:15 that's what I'm coming up against in Mobius, too 15:12:22 I can boot on my test PCs, but not my dev machine 15:12:24 yep, it's a fact of life 15:12:25 Hoi, Robert! 15:12:26 and Bochs works fine 15:12:31 Hey pavlovski 15:12:37 hi geist 15:12:55 lots of the code in any big os are workarounds for various pieces of hardware, and bochs is just another piece of hardware as far as code is concerned 15:13:16 it may be a 'bug' in bochs in that it's more strict about something you're doing wrong, but is it a bug or not? hard to tell 15:13:45 the best solution is to figure it out and workaround it if it really is a bochs bug 15:13:54 otherwise no forward progress is made 15:13:57 anyway, 15:14:03 15:14:05 s_parlane: the fact that it crashes in Bochs is good 15:14:16 you can now work out where it crashed, and how to stop it crashing 15:14:37 you need to debug until you find the source of the problem, either inside your OS, or, very possibly, inside Bochs 15:14:46 yeah it crashs some where when its still in [bits 16] mode 15:15:00 ok, so you've got a crash CS:IP? 15:15:10 and you ought to get a register dump too, from Bochs 15:15:27 if it worked in Bochs and didn't on a real PC you'd be in a far worse position :) 15:15:32 ok hang on a sec and i will 15:15:49 why we're spending time suggesting this is beyond me. it's like telling a car mechanic how to use their socket wrench 15:15:59 lol 15:16:01 they should already know how to work on cars before they build a new one 15:16:27 hey, I'll reserve _my_ judgment until I've seen s_parlane debug something 15:16:43 heh, fair enough 15:16:52 working on some else os then on ur own is like learning c then c++ 15:16:59 ur? 15:17:05 s_parlane: huh? 15:17:10 your is the spelling 15:17:14 I've dealt with him enough in the last couple of weeks to pretty much determine that he's in wayyyyy over his head 15:17:27 geist: ah... I thought he'd just been around tonight 15:17:49 but as long as he knows when to figure things out on his own and when to stop bugging us, then I have no problem with him around 15:18:27 what hacks me off is he asks questions about everything he comes across, and seems to refuse to realize that he is in that far over his head 15:18:33 heh, maybe I should try it s_parlane's way 15:18:34 turns out he's 13 or something, which explains a lot 15:18:43 geist: I've got a crash at c001b977 15:18:53 do you want to see the stack frame? 15:19:09 im tryin to rite and os and it doesnt work whats wrong? 15:19:32 so I call a function and it resets and i tried it again on another computer and it works 15:19:34 from the mega-tokyo board: 15:19:42 I finally have a basic system with a proper GDT, IDT and interrupt system, pic and pit. that's all. :) 15:19:43 subject: How can i: 15:19:44 Implement Buttons 15:19:44 Implement Icons 15:19:44 Implement Bar functionalty 15:19:44 For the GUI? 15:19:46 so i think the fist one doesnt work but it runs linux so i think its okay 15:19:55 Rico: l33t! 15:20:18 The only problem I have now is that the more I come to know about osdev on IA-32, the more I dislike it, I don't like the architecture. 15:20:26 error was 15:20:34 that's the challenge 15:20:44 coming up with a nice system which hides the cracks in IA-32 15:20:59 true 15:21:02 WARNING: encountered an unknown instruction (signalling illegal instruction) 15:21:08 that is my reason to go on. 15:21:27 all other big OSes already do it, so it is possible. 15:21:51 >>PANIC<< prefetch: RIP > CS.limit 15:21:52 Rico: another big trick to learning x86 is knowing what is useful and what should be ignored 15:22:00 there are a lot of more features that you dont need 15:22:13 knowing which ones are useful and which are legacy is good 15:22:17 geist: in what sense? 15:22:23 s_parlane: did I go through this with you a few days ago? 15:22:37 I hate it b/c I have to work w/it. 15:23:00 it is positively the most disgusting architecture ever devised 15:23:05 s_parlane: what's the value of CS:IP? 15:23:22 wli: it's OK if you ignore all the crap 15:23:30 Rico: well, for example, the segmentation is not needed, most systems just set it to 0 - 4GB, which basically disables it 15:23:33 if you don't have to deal with real mode or segmentation 15:23:36 pavlovski: well you can't do kernel programming like that 15:23:41 pavlovski: the crap doesn't end there 15:23:42 like what? 15:23:56 lots of people get sucked into the hardware tasking trap too, which isn't needed 15:23:59 and not recommended 15:24:00 it's perfectly possible to treat the IA-32 like you would, say, a RISC machine 15:24:01 pavlovski: that's not even close to the extent of te braindamage. 15:24:08 what brain damage, specifically? 15:24:21 what don't you like about IA-32? 15:24:27 pavlovski: wli works on massive ia-32 machines (32 proc +) and the bad design really shows there 15:24:35 ooh 15:24:39 it doesnt have CS:IP output value 15:24:44 s_parlane: it will do 15:24:48 EIP? 15:25:05 s_parlane: you don't know how to read a register dump? 15:25:49 i can read it 15:25:51 pavlovski: ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/wli/vm/pgcl/dmesg.48G.32K 15:26:09 ok, so what is the value of the instruction pointer? 15:26:26 --- quit: voider (Connection timed out) 15:26:31 pavlovski: there are actually 16 IO-APIC's but nobody's been able to come up with a working interrupt routing algorithm. 15:26:34 but there is no CS:IP any where 15:26:37 (or PCI) 15:26:45 s_parlane: you will find some kind of IP 15:26:47 (or PCI bus scanning) 15:26:48 probably EIP! 15:27:05 wli: 48GB of RAM? 15:27:06 s_parlane: figure out how to figure where the instruction pointer was and go away 15:27:17 I don't know much of anything about peripheral devices so.. 15:27:25 s_parlane: ie, use your brain and debug it 15:27:29 pavlovski: and 32 cpus 15:27:31 instead of just staring at it 15:27:36 wli: crikey 15:27:44 is it even possible to debug without a brain? 15:27:46 s_parlane: how long have you been programming? 15:28:00 im going to get the fing source for linux 15:28:14 s_parlane: why? 15:28:17 * pavlovski reads likes like "Bus #27 is EISA (node 7)" 15:28:21 pavlovski: I've got most of the pieces of a 32x/64G machine (it'd be 64x if you turned on hyperthreading, but that's extremely tricky due to ACPI crap) I'm supposed to move my main hacking to already in. 15:28:53 you use a 32x/64G machine for _hacking_? 15:28:56 I have a great wallpaper (*wink* Rachel Stevens *wink*) :) 15:28:59 i.e. not for fluid dynamics? 15:29:01 cause my windows version is old and broken 15:29:10 pavlovski: well I'm paid for it 15:29:27 he works at IBM 15:29:33 pavlovski: 32-bit machines and/or machines with crippled FPU's are useless for numerics. 15:29:46 pavlovski: they're usually used for databases. 15:29:46 so why so many CPUs? 15:29:48 wli: does it run windows :P 15:30:03 Rico: this one ran NT 3.5 or so. 15:30:12 pavlovski: the databases need cpu power 15:30:25 so NT 3.5 can make use of PAE, then? 15:30:29 damn, didn't know nt is that flexible. 15:30:37 pavlovski: you also need something to babysit all the devices you plug into all the buses 15:30:38 I know it's limited (by design) to 32 CPUs 15:31:12 pavlovski: NT had a bunch of limitations but if you didn't put too much hw in one pile it kept from crapping its pants. 15:31:32 pavlovski: they were meant to run DYNIX/ptx 15:31:34 s_parlane: any sign of CS:IP or EIP yet? 15:31:37 pavlovski: :) 15:31:56 hi lynx_dr :) 15:32:12 i found EIP 15:32:13 herr doktor lynx? 15:32:18 s_parlane: ok, then use it 15:32:24 no 15:32:25 pavlovski: he's off doing something else, he always does this 15:32:28 --- nick: lynx_dr -> lynx 15:32:39 pavlovski: i went to the doctor frequently in the last days 15:32:44 pavlovski: he'll just lose interest or something and go away when you're right in the middle of trying to help, it fucking pisses me off 15:32:54 EIP=0x00010000 15:33:02 geist: right, because we're just messages on his computer screen 15:33:14 s_parlane: I don't care what it is; *you* care what it is 15:33:15 oops no 0x infront 15:33:29 your EIP isn't much use to *me*, unless it points to code I wrote 15:33:50 no pavlovski ur a person but geist i think is an AI bot 15:34:09 what do i do wit it ? 15:34:30 The limitation of 32 cpus on 32-bit boxen is mostly stupidity. 15:34:33 use it as a hatstand 15:34:49 64 is perfectly doable w/APIC's 15:34:50 hm, sarcasm doesn't convey too well across the Internet 15:35:01 ca. 200 are doable w/xAPIC's 15:35:07 s_parlane: fuck you! 15:35:11 wli: I guess it's "32 bits in a register, 32 CPUs in a box" 15:35:40 ur a very friendly AI bot arent you 15:35:41 pavlovski: doesn't stop anything 15:35:43 s_parlane: I wash my fucking hands of you. you say one more piece of shit like that and you're permanently gone 15:35:54 wli: it probably does in NT's case 15:36:14 pavlovski: fine by me I'm out to kill NT anyway =) 15:36:18 heh 15:36:36 s_parlane: note that most people in this channel (and virtually all of those who've spoken to you) have ops 15:36:44 destroy all doze 15:36:47 s_parlane: show some respect or leave 15:37:03 --- quit: icez ("elementary, my dear watson.") 15:37:04 s_parlane: which includes anti-Windows or anti-Microsoft statements from yourself 15:37:06 i can see urs 15:37:20 yeah im sorry 15:37:33 as a Microsoft Windows SDK MVP I am obliged to correct any random statements you might make 15:37:45 now can we get back to OS development? 15:37:53 wli said it first 15:37:53 well I'm not particularly friendly to all that but at least I drop the code to back it up 15:38:14 you work for the oppisition ? 15:38:21 s_parlane: wli has been here much longer than you ahve 15:38:33 also, wli is capable of a reasoned debate 15:38:45 i.e. he can back up anything he might say 15:38:47 I've been checking Mega Tokyo's osdev forum out for the last few weeks, and there is this guy (pav made a remark about it above), asking stuff like "how do I make a start button?" 15:39:03 right, some Portuguese guy 15:39:08 that and I was also sort of stating an organizational goal 15:39:08 MVP 1 <- was does that mean ? 15:39:23 the moderators have started to quieten him down recently 15:39:29 s_parlane: http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/ 15:39:47 and people even spend time giving a relatively serious answer. I'm more like "Riiiiight..." (ala Dr. Evil). 15:39:59 pretty funny to see his questions :) 15:40:13 heh 15:40:18 I think I gave some useful, helpful answers a few times 15:40:27 can you tell me why windows always crashs then 15:40:30 * witten takes this opportunity to pimp osdev mailing list at http://mail.torsion.org/mailman/listinfo/osdev 15:40:34 but then he just keeps asking the same question over and over again, and I've given up and turned to "stop asking these questions" 15:40:57 witten: hey I even use that one. :) 15:41:02 'squant' 15:41:08 s_parlane: which version? can you describe the symptoms of the crash? can you give me enough information to reproduce the crash for myself? 15:41:09 geist: wtf is squant? 15:41:39 witten: it's a new color: http://www.negativland.com/squant/ 15:41:40 'squant'? 15:41:58 windows xp home 15:42:02 geist: ok, that's what I got when I googled for it 15:42:11 geist: I was just wondering what you replied to a message with it.. 15:42:19 geist: this kind of messes up the nice 32-bit colour thing we've got going 15:42:20 explorer crash 15:42:28 witten: I was tired, and hoping to start some discussion there 15:42:30 geist: now you want to add an 'S' channel?! :) 15:42:35 geist: oh :) 15:42:41 kills all my apps that should be beside the clock 15:42:54 I had meant to answer one of the technical questions but never got around to it 15:43:03 so that was my little addition to the thread. :) 15:43:07 well, at least it's started discussion here 15:43:15 right 15:43:53 geist: I appreciate it :) 15:44:10 pavlovski: my approach to fixing the stuff was butt simple 15:44:11 s_parlane: unless you can track down where/when/why you get the crash, the best thing to do is to get SP1, then get all the latest patches from Windows Update 15:44:42 pavlovski: I just wrapped up "cpu bitmasks" in a struct cpumask { ... }; with bitmap twiddling wrappers etc. 15:44:44 i have SP1 and it still dies 15:44:53 pavlovski: the compiler basically caught all the errors for me. 15:45:00 wli: nice 15:45:34 * geist finally got fed up and /ignored s_parlane 15:45:48 I can't resist answering him, and it just gets me into it 15:46:07 oh well, I wont be on irc all next week, so that'll give me some time to cool down 15:46:22 --- quit: wl ("quit") 15:46:37 * geist makes a hiptop build to test something 15:46:45 * Rico sniffs away some tears 15:46:46 here's a relevant question: 15:46:50 why geist, why?!? 15:46:53 :'( 15:46:54 pavlovski: took a _tiny_ bit of thought in some of the places where overflows etc. are expected to occur when preparing to ram gunk into APIC and/or IO-APIC registers, but those are also things you can figure out by looking. Zero overhead for small machines, too, since the wrappers can just be compiled to make the ops (|, &, 1 << cpu, etc.) identical for NR_CPUS <= 32 case. 15:46:58 what's a good way of drawing a line clipped to an artibrary array of rectangles? 15:47:21 pavlovski: well, there's the brute force way 15:47:44 geist: put_pixel? 15:48:00 you'ld most certainly want to reduce the array of rectangles down to the minimum set 15:48:06 that's number one 15:48:12 * geist looks at his code to do this 15:48:30 (the array of rectangles being a window clipping region) 15:49:41 oh I see how to do it 15:49:59 take the line, then for every rect in the clipping region, see if it intersects the rectangle 15:50:05 hmm, was about to say that 15:50:20 so calculate intersections between the line and each side of the rectangle 15:50:26 4 line/line intersections per rectangle 15:50:42 well, if you have newos code I have some code to do this 15:51:00 newos/apps/window_server/GraphicsContext.cpp 15:51:10 relatively recent... I'd have to install P4 on XP if I wanted to grab the latest 15:51:11 I'll try it 15:51:33 your GUI is roughly based on the one that was in OpenBLT, isn't it? 15:52:35 * pavlovski notes vert_intersection and horz_intersection routines 15:52:46 yep 15:52:59 it acutlaly is directly based off that, and the author sets about 5 feet from me at work 15:53:13 swetland? 15:53:18 it certainly doesn't fully work right now, but the low level clipping stuff does 15:53:27 heh 15:53:31 swetland sits about 15 feet from me, the gui was written by jeff bush 15:53:35 k 15:54:04 if only the people I worked with were sufficiently clued-up to do OS dev 15:54:18 yeah, these guys are goood too 15:55:07 today, one bloke was saying to another, "You're doing the front panel controller code? That's my ideal of hell..." 15:55:17 "I can do it in C though" 15:55:21 *idea 15:55:50 * pavlovski rewrites his rendering routines 15:56:25 yeah, I know not much about that stuff, so I took the openblt stuff initially, though I am probably going to change the upper level stuff a lot 15:56:32 the lower level clipping and whatnot seem to work well enough 15:56:47 you both make 40 hours a week at work, geist and pav? 15:57:04 though jeff suggested I make the clipping regions and dirty regions and whatnot be in screen coordinates instead of local coords 15:57:12 I ripped mine from Chris Giese's GUI 15:57:29 I don't suppose it's anything too difficult; just a lot of cases to deal with 15:57:50 Rico: 7.5 hours/day, so 37.5 :) 15:58:23 Most Valuable Professional 15:58:30 that whole thing sucks 15:58:36 well, I'm doing an internship now and I make 40 hours a week, and damn, it's hard! 15:58:51 you're right, it is hard :) 15:58:59 a bit different from school, <20 hours a week :) 16:00:41 hay i have like 6 1/2 hours a day of school and have it 5 times a week 16:01:25 then you're doing something wrong ;) 16:02:40 8:30 -> 3:10 5 times a week 16:04:43 damn, I need to get this linux box upgraded, it takes quite a few minutes to do a clean rebuild of the hiptop sw 16:05:57 tis only a 533 celeron 16:07:10 I use a 550mhz at work too, damn slow! 16:07:22 it is not processor that is slow 16:07:25 it is windows 16:07:37 it is both 16:07:46 thats why I have linux on this one. I have a main windows box (933) and a linux box to do quick builds (533) 16:08:01 it's still faster to build on linux than windows, because cygwin adds a hell of a lot of overhead 16:08:18 but thank god I do all my programming on a unix system. 16:08:19 all the new people at work are getting 2.6 P4's I should push to get an upgrade 16:10:09 it's really interesting, I run hp-ux at work, and no matter what server I log on, I always get the same enviroment, same mounts and stuff, I even get redirected at connection. 16:10:29 they have set up a really nice environment 16:11:32 * Rico yawns 16:11:36 I'm off to bed 16:12:22 bye all 16:12:44 Natti Rico! 16:12:47 Weltrusten :) 16:12:51 bye 16:14:02 Robert! You've said much! 16:14:40 :) 16:14:48 Ik heb veel gezagt..or whatever 16:14:50 night :P 16:14:58 --- join: darkito (~darkito@80-25-82-102.uc.nombres.ttd.es) joined #osdev 16:15:11 darkito! 16:15:13 hehy 16:15:15 !! 16:15:16 * wli plugs in the qla2310 16:15:28 * darkito still has a cold 16:15:54 :( 16:19:15 dudmdidum 16:19:18 --- quit: Ubel (Remote closed the connection) 16:19:22 too abd that i cannot use my headphones 16:19:46 --- quit: darkito ("[BX] Windows 95, coded entirely by blondes") 16:20:26 geist: do you know anything about the new p4 io subsystem? 16:20:37 or better the new io subsys in the i8** chipsets? 16:20:41 nope 16:20:49 is it software visible> 16:20:49 ? 16:21:04 i dont think so 16:21:23 i mean i dont think they added new stuff 16:21:38 well i think they have a real integrated random number generator 16:21:52 maybe some other small addon 16:22:09 but they call it now ICH for io communication hub 16:22:26 as well as they have a memory hub 16:22:45 that makes me think of the new technology being introduced with pci-X 16:23:26 hm 16:23:28 oh, well I dunno. haven't looked at it much 16:23:32 intel tries to use the pci-x bus as standard bus for any devices 16:23:41 such as cpu, memory controller etc 16:23:59 hrm 16:24:15 well i think that is why intel isnt trying to establish a new 64bit x86 arch now 16:24:44 they are trying to get rid of the unnecessary artifacts from the old x86 days 16:27:08 yay 16:32:45 :/ 16:32:49 Robert: finished? 16:34:41 --- join: durnew (wak@dweeb.net-shack.com) joined #osdev 16:34:59 hmm, new blood 16:35:28 howdy 16:36:19 lynx: Yes! 16:36:22 lynx: Thanks :) 16:44:28 --- join: icez (unity@ACC309A9.ipt.aol.com) joined #osdev 16:44:38 yo yo yo 16:44:43 yo yo yo 16:45:59 what's up geist? 16:48:19 just workin 16:53:26 lynx: Nice music. 17:01:43 --- quit: mur ("MUR!") 17:07:14 --- quit: sayke (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 17:15:19 hum, quick question 17:15:22 --- nick: voider|NA -> voider 17:15:33 how many memory do you reserve for your kernel stack? 17:16:07 8k I think 17:16:10 maybe 4k 17:16:15 but certainly not more than 8k 17:16:20 ok nice 17:16:26 i have currently 8 bk 17:16:32 where is your kernel loaded? 17:16:40 (phys addr) 17:17:43 not any particular location, it just uses pages as it allocates virtual memory for it 17:20:05 geist: any guard page at the top of each kernel stack? 17:20:30 why? 17:20:33 no needs.. 17:21:44 --- join: cuebol (Gemini@adsl-64-164-112-77.dsl.mtry01.pacbell.net) joined #osdev 17:21:45 they catch stack overflows 17:21:57 --- nick: cuebol -> Cue|Store 17:21:59 and underflows, if you put kernel stacks consecutivey 17:22:27 guard pages make the difference between seeing a double fault on kernel stack overflows and overwriting random data and eventually getting a triple fault 17:22:40 hum, i see 17:22:49 I have: 17:23:16 [...][guard][stack][guard][stack][...] 17:23:39 where [...] is unmapped, [guard] is 4KB of unmapped memory, and [stack] is one 8KB kernel stack 17:31:37 hey air: can you describe some of the advatages of list based langs? 17:34:23 well they make list twiddling easy 17:34:44 ? 17:35:34 anyone know who Mr Xsism is he wrote the IDTkernel that comes with a how to on bona fine's osdev page about IRQ's IDT ISR .... 17:35:51 there are some mistakes in his build file and I can't get them out 17:36:30 url? 17:36:31 --- quit: icez ("elementary, my dear watson.") 17:36:52 --- join: kyelewis (kyelewis@client-203-166-109-4.net2000.com.au) joined #osdev 17:37:24 of the zip kernel file or how to ? 17:37:48 how to 17:37:57 http://osdev.neopages.net/tutorials/interrupts.3.php 17:38:06 the how to is in 3parts this is the last part 17:38:20 hi kemu 17:38:24 just would like to have a valid build.dat file 17:38:40 so I can work around that source 17:38:56 write ur own 17:39:16 kemu hows ya os ? 17:40:23 s_parlane: I want to understand how to use and work with IRQ's and interrupts 17:40:44 some example code would help I'm having trouble understanding some part and writting an IDT 17:40:46 cool 17:40:52 like why do you remap your IRQ's ? 17:41:17 cause they over lap cpu ints 17:41:40 * s_parlane points kemu to http://parlane.homeip.net/scottsnewos/ 17:42:25 Is there any way to load an IDT, GDT, or TSS from above 4G? I'm vaguely hoping there's room for interpretation wrt. "linear address"... 17:43:09 change ur offset 17:44:35 wli: yes 17:44:56 LGDT etc. obey paging 17:45:13 so if the 'linear address' in question is above 4GB then you'll load your GDT from above 4GB 17:55:19 --- nick: Cue|Store -> cuebol 17:58:25 ; start.asm 17:58:25 ; jumped to by GRUB 17:58:25 [BITS 32]; GRUB sets us in PMode 17:58:25 [global start]; the entry point 17:58:25 [extern kmain]; C function 17:58:28 start: 17:58:33 ; let us build the Multiboot header at first 17:58:35 ; this is needed for GRUB 17:58:38 ; **** Multiboot header **** 17:58:40 MULTIBOOT_PAGE_ALIGN equ 1<<0 17:58:43 MULTIBOOT_MEMORY_INFO equ 1<<1 17:58:46 MULTIBOOT_HEADER_MAGIC equ 0x1BADB002 17:58:48 MULTIBOOT_HEADER_FLAGS equ MULTIBOOT_PAGE_ALIGN | MULTIBOOT_MEMORY_INFO 17:58:51 CHECKSUM equ -(MULTIBOOT_HEADER_MAGIC + MULTIBOOT_HEADER_FLAGS) 17:58:53 ; build Multiboot header 17:58:56 align 4 17:58:58 dd MULTIBOOT_HEADER_MAGIC 17:59:01 dd MULTIBOOT_HEADER_FLAGS 17:59:04 dd CHECKSUM 17:59:06 ; **** End of Multiboot header **** 17:59:08 --- join: sayke (~abuse@sttldslgw29poolB193.sttl.uswest.net) joined #osdev 17:59:09 over_data: 17:59:14 ; jumped to by GRUB 17:59:16 [BITS 32]; GRUB sets us in PMode 17:59:19 [global start]; the entry point 17:59:21 [extern kmain]; C function 17:59:24 start: 17:59:29 ; let us build the Multiboot header at first 17:59:31 ; this is needed for GRUB 17:59:34 ; **** Multiboot header **** 17:59:36 MULTIBOOT_PAGE_ALIGN equ 1<<0 17:59:39 MULTIBOOT_MEMORY_INFO equ 1<<1 17:59:42 MULTIBOOT_HEADER_MAGIC equ 0x1BADB002 17:59:44 MULTIBOOT_HEADER_FLAGS equ MULTIBOOT_PAGE_ALIGN | MULTIBOOT_MEMORY_INFO 17:59:47 CHECKSUM equ -(MULTIBOOT_HEADER_MAGIC + MULTIBOOT_HEADER_FLAGS) 17:59:49 ; build Multiboot header 17:59:52 align 4 17:59:54 dd MULTIBOOT_HEADER_MAGIC 17:59:57 dd MULTIBOOT_HEADER_FLAGS 17:59:59 dd CHECKSUM 18:00:02 ; **** End of Multiboot header **** 18:00:05 over_data: 18:06:41 --- quit: s_parlane ("Download Gaim [http://gaim.sourceforge.net/]") 18:10:21 --- join: s_parlane (~scott@tnt1-288.quicksilver.net.nz) joined #osdev 18:11:03 --- quit: pavlovski ("Client Exiting") 18:16:19 --- quit: voider (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 18:16:36 --- join: voider (voider@206.167.166.74) joined #osdev 18:17:07 hi voider 18:20:39 --- quit: Popsickle (Remote closed the connection) 18:26:50 --- join: file (jwired@mctn1-0226.nb.aliant.net) joined #osdev 18:27:39 --- quit: I440r (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 18:29:21 * Prophet_ geht pennen. n8 18:31:27 hi 18:32:18 finally 18:55:09 --- join: nullify (1000@pool-138-89-48-220.mad.east.verizon.net) joined #osdev 18:59:50 --- quit: Prophet_ ("Client exiting") 19:02:37 How are we all doing this evening? 19:04:18 stupid !@#$%^ serial debugging :-) 19:07:00 Hehehe 19:37:04 --- quit: dax (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 19:51:42 heh 19:52:24 --- join: gab_ (~prfalken@gaia.chx-labs.org) joined #osdev 20:00:15 --- quit: gab (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 20:10:08 --- nick: gab_ -> gab 20:16:46 sooner or later kill flanders I'll get some work done.. 20:19:27 --- quit: nullify ("Client exiting") 20:21:13 --- quit: cuebol () 20:27:32 --- quit: witten ("bye") 20:34:36 --- part: s_parlane left #osdev 20:37:56 --- join: Boney (~paul@dsl-203-113-192-149.VIC.netspace.net.au) joined #osdev 20:39:46 --- join: s_parlane (~scott@tnt1-288.quicksilver.net.nz) joined #osdev 21:07:05 --- join: dax (dax@u212-239-163-121.adsl.pi.be) joined #osdev 21:15:36 --- quit: trans (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 21:21:58 miau? 21:35:01 --- join: air (~brand@12-254-199-58.client.attbi.com) joined #osdev 21:35:30 anyone know how to do `echo "foo" > file` without adding a \n? 21:39:45 echo -n 21:39:55 or consider printf 21:40:00 ah thanks 22:00:19 --- join: Mathis (irc@manz-d9b95042.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #osdev 22:00:31 hi 22:00:41 hi Mathis 22:01:59 hey Mathis 22:02:49 what is not okay with: inc ecx; cmp eax, ecx; jz .l1 ? hehe 22:03:48 what is happening? 22:04:07 heh, lynx, you have not been here 24 hours ago 22:04:10 Mathis: heh 22:04:10 err 22:04:12 funny time we had 22:04:25 what? 22:04:28 more fun time 8 hours or so ago 22:04:35 really? 22:04:36 which was? 22:04:37 pav and I were helping him 22:04:41 and? 22:04:54 oh wait, that was Xerroz that did the asm thing 22:04:59 yep 22:05:07 I was thinking of s_parlane 22:05:15 tell me :P 22:05:20 im here 22:05:26 hehe, another guy *g* 22:05:37 oh nothin, just some dumb unanswerable questions 22:05:49 hehe 22:05:54 like the general what shall i do or start with? 22:06:01 and they think, these questions are normal *g* 22:06:08 lynx, yep 22:06:30 or something like: can you correct my code plz? *g* 22:06:32 I should hack code tonight 22:06:43 ic 22:06:45 but I need to clean up the apartment a bit too 22:06:47 even if geist has ignored me i can still see what hes writing 22:06:53 need to do floppy dma, fun fun fun 22:07:03 geist: have alot of fun ;-) 22:07:10 heh 22:07:14 hrm 22:07:23 VM specs on its way, heh 22:07:38 it's not hard, I just want to do the dma properly and put it in the isa bus manager and have the floppy use the bus manager as a client 22:07:52 IE, I dont want the floppy controller dicking with the dma stuff directly 22:08:15 do you have dma abstraction? 22:08:24 that's what I need to do 22:08:28 ic 22:08:32 put it in the isa bus manager 22:08:38 tell me how you implemented it 22:08:39 should the bus manager not be the server? 22:08:43 i mean when you are done 22:09:01 though it's kind of silly, because the floppy driver is likely to be the only one that uses isa dma, but whatever 22:09:12 well, I might to high speed parallel or something 22:11:17 since the bus manager offers some DMA functions as service... 22:11:25 back in a sec 22:11:25 --- quit: geist ("leaving") 22:11:40 --- join: geist (~geist@dsl093-182-050.sfo2.dsl.speakeasy.net) joined #osdev 22:11:54 better 22:14:05 anyway, what were we talking about? 22:14:16 should the bus manager not be the server? 22:14:18 since the bus manager offers some DMA functions as service... 22:14:36 yeah it should 22:14:46 the floppy driver would use it as a client 22:14:51 ie, the floppy driver is the client 22:15:01 english didn't work too well there 22:15:20 english? 22:15:34 aw never mind 22:15:38 okay 22:16:07 anyway, yeah I just need to have a central place to do the dma, at least lock it so that two people dont mess with the same dma registers at the same time 22:16:38 Sound Blaster can use ISA DMA too 22:17:10 maybe a separate ISA DMA driver would be okay 22:20:31 i use separate dma driver 22:20:51 I am going to do so too 22:23:10 --- quit: Boney (brunner.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) 22:23:15 --- join: Boney (~paul@dsl-203-113-192-149.VIC.netspace.net.au) joined #osdev 22:26:56 hrm 22:27:30 how would you guys design a dma abstraction layer if portability has very high priority? 22:28:29 you dont 22:28:41 if it's something that works on isa, then it's by default not really portable 22:28:52 well 22:28:58 netbsd has such a system 22:29:37 their abstraction basically allows any driver to work on any architecture 22:30:18 * lynx listens to Muhavishnu orchestra 22:30:25 maha* 22:31:14 hrm 22:31:43 so, nobody of you has any experiences or ideas concerning that topic? 22:32:13 not really, I started to think along those lines, and it may be easier to abstract full featured busses (pci, sbos, etc) 22:32:23 but half brained ones like isa are a bit harder to fit into the model 22:32:51 yeah 22:33:05 what is the mainprob with pci and dma abstraction? 22:33:26 just that the pci bus on some other archs cannot address the whole memory? 22:37:10 gtg, tired 22:37:14 :( 22:37:15 bye 22:37:29 night shift 22:37:39 and have to go shopping in 20 minutes 22:37:46 THEN I can go sleeping 22:37:55 fun fun 22:37:56 but still awaiting a packet from Telekom... 22:38:11 Mathis: what will be in it? 22:38:17 T-DSL 22:38:18 geist : you dont like me, do you? 22:38:30 Mathis: ist es schon freigeschaltet? 22:38:42 lynx: nee, zuerst die Auftragsbestätigung und die Geräte 22:38:46 lynx: huh? why do you say that? 22:38:53 I was just talkin to someone else on AIM 22:39:02 geist : ya, ok , sorry then 22:39:11 lynx: habs montag morgen um 4 Uhr auf deren Webseite bestellt 22:39:11 but just ended 22:39:31 anyway, I haven't seen enough busses to really know how to abstract them properly 22:39:37 Mathis: why dont you try to get an contract with arcor? 22:39:44 geist : that is the same for me 22:39:49 --- join: trans (occhwz@fatwire-201-214.uniserve.ca) joined #osdev 22:39:51 Arcor is not good 22:39:54 I guess it boils down to what functionality you want to abstract: detection, dma, remapping, etc 22:40:01 geist : is there a possibility to abstract on the chip level? 22:40:29 hrm hard to explain, wouldnt probably work 22:40:30 AFAIK, the dma stuff just doesn't matter with pci and probably other ones. isa dma is really just a seperate device that is used to do dma 22:40:43 ya 22:40:45 it's not really part of the bus so much. on pci most devices just do dma directly and transparently 22:40:47 Mathis: why? 22:40:51 you give em an address and the data goes there 22:40:56 you dont have to intervene 22:41:01 yep 22:41:12 problems will emerge if the pci cannot address the whole memory 22:41:14 lynx: their quality is low 22:41:19 or if there are certain windows etc 22:41:24 Mathis: ic 22:41:32 lynx: that's true, and from what i understand 32-bit pci can't see more than 4GB of physical address space 22:41:35 Mathis: qwhat about the Q 22:41:43 --- join: wl (philipp@pD954EA2B.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #osdev 22:41:44 so you end up with essentially the same problem as isa dma has with 24 bits 22:41:52 Q-DSL? 22:41:59 Mathis: ya 22:42:05 not available here 22:42:06 geist : yeah i thought that, too 22:42:07 ie, if you want a pci ethernet to read to a buffer in memory, it had better exist < 4GB 22:42:16 but I dont really know the details, 22:42:39 geist : i read a doc about netbsd's abstraction and they say they are scanning for a mainbus (kinda virtual device) and then search for pci and isa bridges, etc 22:42:42 if that problem does exist, it really sucks because otherwise you can use >4GB memory in exactly the same way as below 22:43:15 but I dont have a machine with > 4GB yet so I can't really test it 22:43:27 heh 22:43:28 ok 22:43:34 me 1GB here ;-) 22:44:42 gees... people tell *me* "oh, why do you need 768mb of ram, that's crazy"... 22:44:48 * lynx is reading about the NX operating system 22:45:01 NX or QNX? 22:45:04 NX 22:45:10 website? 22:45:17 it is in a book 22:45:23 lemme ask google 22:45:28 ah 22:45:43 I have thought about writing another translation map module (like pmap in mach) that uses PAE, but I'd just be an exercise for fun, and wouldn't be useful yet 22:46:27 what is translation map ? 22:46:39 Mathis: nah nothing really specific found 22:46:49 me too 22:47:08 Mathis: it is an os for a mesage based cluster made by intel in the beginning of the 90s 22:47:20 Intel Paragon 22:47:28 Intel Supercomputers Systems... 22:47:35 it used intels two way superscalar 806-CP procs 22:47:49 duh 22:47:53 860-XP 22:48:01 typos :P 22:48:02 lynx: it's an object in my vm that encapsulates all of the cpu specific code and data structures needed to use paging 22:48:12 the equivalent of pmap object in mach vm 22:48:32 each architecture has it's own translation_map code 22:48:53 ah 22:48:54 since it's modular, I can swap it out with one that does PAE if the system has > 4GB ram 22:49:03 cool 22:49:14 how much bits does PAE use for addressing 36 ? 22:49:29 gtg really now... 22:50:51 bye 22:52:19 later Mathis 22:52:32 bleh 22:52:35 lynx: PAE lets you map 36 bits of physical address space to 32-bits of virtual 22:52:42 the new uuu arch is getting complicated 22:53:00 hrm 22:53:15 how was 36bit addressing chosen anyway? 22:53:20 36 physical to virtual? weird 22:53:21 whose ass was that pulled out of? 22:53:43 maybe they use some bit shifting and segments :P 22:53:58 oh 22:54:04 heh doesnt really work 22:54:23 I dunno, but whatever it is it's 36 bits 22:54:27 well 22:54:32 lemme look into the intel manuals 22:54:42 that's how many address pins are available on a pentium pro and above 22:55:15 hrm 22:55:19 segments aren't usable for going above 4GB 22:55:19 fdound it 22:55:50 you still have only 4GB of virtual space 22:56:21 so obviously you can't 'see' more than 4GB at a time, but you can for example have multiple processes each 'seeing' a different 4GB 22:56:42 basically you create a "linear address" from a "logical address". The "linear address" is then interpreted by pagetables. IIRC the linear addresses wrap around the 4GB boundary as opposed to reaching above it when the segment base + effective address component of the logical address exceeds 4GB. 22:57:56 yeah 22:58:51 thats what the book says, too 22:59:06 that's right 22:59:12 segmentation is on top of paging 22:59:22 --- quit: Mathis (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 22:59:30 and segmentation still wraps around at 4GB, so the only way to get to more than 4GB of physical address space is to map it in via paging 23:00:00 It's usable for things like per-cpu and per-node areas, but those are doable in other ways also. 23:00:06 the paging unit is 'below' pretty much everything else in the cpu (ie, the gdt and ldt and idt and all of those data structures are on top of paging) 23:00:36 geist: does that mean GDT's and IDT's can physically reside above 4GB? 23:00:42 you bet 23:00:46 whoa 23:01:08 geist: that's majorly important for an unusual reason... 23:02:08 yeah, all of that is on top of paging, which kind of messes with your head when you first start messing with it (ie, you load gdt and ldt and idt, turn paging on and move things around and wonder why it all breaks) 23:03:30 the other one I want is %cr3 23:03:49 i.e. the PDPT 23:03:53 cr3 is physical 23:04:05 all of the paging structures are in physical space 23:04:23 I forget if the cr3 is expanded to be 64 bit, I guess it isn't 23:04:32 therefore the PDPT probably has to be in < 4GB 23:04:47 that or they put the top half somewhere else 23:05:06 it's still 32-bit 23:05:10 except on x86-64 23:05:30 hrm the x86-64 has only 40bit addressing , rite? 23:05:43 48 I think, maybe 40 23:05:47 40 is still an assload 23:05:52 yupo 23:05:56 even something like the ultrasparc stops at 40 or so 23:06:02 yeah 23:06:08 alpha has 40bit, too 23:06:12 40 is what a terabyte? 23:06:16 i think the 21164 23:06:18 ya 23:06:34 the question is how much *virtual* space it can address 23:06:35 1.09951e+12 23:06:43 somewhat below 64-bits I assure you 23:06:58 there are holes in virtual space that you simply can't map anything to 23:07:29 many cpus have that, since you basically dont have enough memory to store the data structures to really map something uniquely to all 64-bits of virtual space 23:07:44 52-bits or so 23:07:47 2¬^64 is err 18 exobyte? 23:08:58 ah 23:09:03 yeah 23:09:56 The x86-64 "long -mode" supports 64-bits of virtual address space, more memory than current computers (or super-computers) have. Sledgehammer will only have 48-bits of virtual address space with 40-bits of physical address space, putting the Sledgehammer beyond the current 32-bit processors. 23:10:21 yep 23:10:25 that's about right 23:10:34 I think the current ia-64s are something like that too 23:10:50 ia64 has over 50 bits 23:11:00 the problem with the x86-64 is the current paging structure will *not* allow more than 48 bits of virtual space 23:11:04 it's not extendable 23:11:09 wli: I think 52-bits 23:11:34 nor would you really want to extend the x86-64's paging structures, they're terribly inefficent 23:11:56 the page table system seems like would break down in large memory configs. *all* of the other large mem cpus dont use anything like that 23:12:17 what do they use then? 23:12:28 alpha has a palcode TLB miss handler that mocks up pagetables 23:12:31 just a tlb most of the time 23:12:47 it's up to the os to figure out how to store their paging data 23:12:52 the os manually fills the tlb 23:13:04 but usually they support many different 'page' sizes 23:13:24 what is the use of 64bits anyway except maybe scientific computatsions (i was at a meeting and listened to a report about supercomputing,it weas said that 90% of all scientifc work can be done on 32bit machines) 23:13:29 ? 23:13:55 lynx: the trick is the importance of the work that needs > 32-bits 23:14:12 lynx: databases are the ones who really want > 4G 23:14:19 wli; that's a good way to put it 23:14:19 ok 23:14:32 may not be a lot of stuff that needs > 4GB, but if it's really important... 23:14:36 lynx: they have large shared memory arenas and windowing into it is _severe_ overhead 23:14:49 wli : ok that is clear 23:14:54 but next to that? 23:15:01 what desktop has to be 64bit now? 23:15:09 none 23:15:46 on the other hand... ps2 has 128bit GPRs :P 23:15:47 lynx: the only trick is > 1GB of filesystem cache incurs windowing overhead like databases 23:15:51 ps2 = playstation2 23:16:17 wli : hrm... 23:16:20 ok 23:16:49 you're talking about 128bit-wide registers, not 128-bit addressing 23:16:55 yeah 23:17:22 lynx: databases don't use filesystem caches so it doesn't affect them. Large-scale scientific computing wants > 4GB for anonymous memory. 23:17:32 so it doesn't use the fs cache either 23:17:32 is the x86-64 also aimed to be a low-end system? 23:17:34 yep, when people say an architecture is xxx bits, that normally means the native size of their general purpose regs 23:17:41 has nothign to do with the address space they can see 23:18:10 low end in the meaning that it is also aimed for usual consumers aka joe user 23:18:33 it makes sense from the POV of being x86-compatible 23:18:42 it doesn't make sense from the POV of what it does 23:18:44 --- quit: Boney (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) 23:18:53 POV = ? 23:19:01 Point Of View 23:19:02 point of view 23:19:03 ok 23:19:14 last time i checked the itanium was brutal expensive 23:19:17 can't wait til i see Compaq's latest 6THz 512-bit Pentium system with 20 TB ram 23:19:37 so it is basically (leaving the database aspect aside) just another x86 gadged and hype thingy 23:20:05 lynx: it's an opcode prefix, a pagetable format, and Yet Another FPU extension. 23:20:26 heh 23:21:35 I'm hoping the baggage will weigh it down and something less burdened by obscenely useless cruft will take the 64-bit thingie. 23:23:11 --- join: Boney (~paul@dsl-203-113-192-149.VIC.netspace.net.au) joined #osdev 23:23:21 take the 64bit thingy= 23:23:22 ? 23:23:24 IMHO cpus should be simplistic. Easy for compilers to understand, not requiring a whole lot of screwing around for a kernel to manage. 23:23:30 yeah 23:23:44 mips is the best example for that 23:23:50 --- join: Mathis (irc@manz-d9b950b9.pool.mediaWays.net) joined #osdev 23:23:58 re 23:24:02 Mathis: addict. 23:24:12 Early MIPS the best example, later MIPS had some crap seep in. 23:24:18 Like the branch prediction bull. 23:24:24 uhrm 23:24:30 do all mips have that? 23:24:46 lynx? 23:24:51 no 23:25:06 they even got rid of the err... how is it called... gee (me forgot the term) 23:25:08 it probably went in ca. R10K or thereabouts. 23:25:08 ahh 23:25:12 Out of order execution 23:25:23 OOO is fine. That's transparent. 23:25:35 I think they actually have it. 23:25:40 yeah my r10k has it, i dont think many others have it 23:25:52 well you realize they're up to R16K no? 23:25:56 out of order is transparent? 23:25:57 --- join: pengo (~xtofu@p681-tnt1.mel.ihug.com.au) joined #osdev 23:26:02 they are basically up to 20k :P 23:26:11 what is OOO? 23:26:17 out of order execution 23:26:21 s/OOO/OOOE/ 23:26:28 I meant what does it do? 23:26:33 well 23:26:44 the cpu decides what opcode to execute next 23:26:49 1+2+3 = 3+2+1 23:26:56 it executes instructions out of order so an instruction that's not completed by the time the one after it is loaded doesn't block the one loaded after it from executing. 23:27:09 --- quit: pengo (Client Quit) 23:27:09 ya 23:27:10 ah, now I know 23:27:11 heh 23:27:27 remember that I read it somewhere... 23:27:36 Register and memory renaming are also good. 23:27:52 wli : but that led to some probs when coding asm for it 23:28:15 I like the idea of a register window... 23:28:19 out of order + multiple instructions at the same time (superscalar) 23:28:25 different process, different registers 23:28:45 static pipelining and EPIC are bullcrap IMHO 23:28:48 wli : do you know anything abotu the r16k ? 23:28:51 as Alpha did 23:28:58 static pipelingin ? 23:29:28 compiler-generated pipeline schedules. 23:29:37 ah 23:29:43 and what means epic in that context? 23:29:50 * lynx aint no compiler dude 23:30:02 Explicitly Parallel Instruction C??? 23:30:17 From V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms December 2001 [vera]: 23:30:17 EPIC 23:30:17 Explicit Parallelism Instruction Computing (Intel) 23:30:26 eh 23:30:32 heh, MIPS: Million Instructions Per Second ;-) 23:30:38 ya 23:30:47 From V.E.R.A. -- Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms December 2001 [vera]: 23:30:47 MIPS 23:30:47 Microprocessor without Interlocked Piped Stages 23:30:59 mips is still the cleanest arch and the most extensible one 23:31:14 --- quit: trans (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 23:31:17 wli : url to that "dictionary" ? 23:31:52 apt-get -f install dict-vera 23:32:15 $ dpkg --list dict-vera 23:32:15 Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold 23:32:15 | Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed 23:32:15 |/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) 23:32:15 ||/ Name Version Description 23:32:16 +++-==============-==============-============================================ 23:32:16 hehe 23:32:18 ii dict-vera 1.8-4 V.E.R.A. - A Dictionary of Computer Related 23:32:20 $ 23:32:57 Debian Package Manager? 23:33:40 already emerged 23:34:42 wow 23:34:46 i didnt know of dict :/ 23:34:48 * lynx is lame 23:35:00 * Mathis is tired 23:35:16 and lame ;-) 23:35:39 well I'm still peeved they renamed it 23:35:44 it used to be "webster" 23:35:47 renames suck 23:35:50 does it use an online reference? 23:35:51 name it right the first time 23:36:00 it can 23:36:08 by default it uses a local database 23:36:58 --- quit: Boney (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 23:37:17 --- join: Boney (~paul@dsl-203-113-197-89.VIC.netspace.net.au) joined #osdev 23:37:26 ic 23:37:33 yawn 23:40:51 gtg, sleep required 23:40:58 go :P 23:48:36 * geist goes to sleep 23:48:44 --- quit: geist ("outta here") 23:49:44 do 23:49:50 wli : what are you doing atm? 23:51:18 lynx: running benchmarks to determine lock contention bottlenecks on a 32x/48G NUMA-Q. 23:51:37 hrm 23:51:41 numa-q ? 23:51:46 i mean i know what numa is 23:51:49 or numa-cc 23:51:52 is that a product? 23:51:57 lynx: NUMA-Q is a product line. 23:52:05 distributed system? 23:52:09 lynx: 64x/64GB x86 boxen from ca. 1996. 23:52:45 They're SMP, though NUMA. 23:53:28 interesting 23:53:40 what interface are they using to communicate and what os is running on them? 23:53:58 and what is the programming interface ? 23:54:21 lynx: Shared memory. They can be treated as normal SMP. 23:54:41 lynx: Shared memory is implemented with an SCI double ring. 23:55:33 --- join: geek\afk (psyched@200.43.177.184) joined #osdev 23:55:40 oh 23:55:46 i heard something about the SCI 23:55:51 * lynx forgot though 23:56:09 doesnt cray use some sci 3d torus? 23:57:05 and how are they linked? 23:57:22 do they use somethign like a LAN or pci connect stuff? 23:58:46 They're linked with SCI. 23:59:04 ah 23:59:18 i just thought sci was some well architecureal standard 23:59:25 can you tell me something about SCI? 23:59:59 --- log: ended osdev/03.03.14