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Wednesday, 17 January 2018

00:00:00 --- log: started osdev/18.01.17
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00:07:20 <nur> pagetable walks are done automatically by the MMU once the pointers are set up correctly, right?
00:07:43 <nur> load cr3 to the base of the pagetables, when laid out correctly, should "just work" right?
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00:08:03 <nur> you don't need to write any code to do a pagetable lookup?
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00:08:53 <wcstok> That's right
00:11:11 <nur> LIKE MAGIC
00:11:22 <klange> like magic
00:11:48 <nur> good..good... I am understanding this correctly
00:11:49 <nur> thank you
00:13:01 <nur> so the pagetables themselves, they just look like an array of pointers right? And they themselves exist also in memory right?
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00:16:23 <wcstok> They're more like an array of a nasty bitfield layed out structure
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00:17:04 <nur> right
00:17:23 <nur> and we need to be careful not to page out the pagetable right
00:17:33 <nur> that would be bad
00:17:36 <Kazinsal> That is generally considered a Bad Thing yes
00:18:09 <wcstok> It's possible to do I suppose, painful though
00:18:47 <Kazinsal> I think if you're that strapped for RAM you should consider alternative options
00:19:34 <wcstok> Like 32 bit nonpaging mode or real mode, or a different cpu entirely? :)
00:19:52 <Kazinsal> Like "add more RAM" or "stop trying to run Chrome on a 486"
00:20:28 <wcstok> Oh sure, throw money at the problem. Totally cheating
00:20:41 <Lowl3v3l> what? chrome needs more than 4 Megs of ram? preposterous!
00:20:51 <nur> "stop trying to run Chrome" <- ftfy
00:22:11 <geist> note you absolutely can page out the page table, since the cpu accesses it physically
00:22:26 <geist> it's actually not that crazy, especially in 32bit machines with lots of ram/processes
00:23:13 <wcstok> Just don't swap out the part of the page table that maps your page fault handler, or if you insist on that - keep the doublefault handler mapped :)
00:23:39 <geist> note what i'm talking about is whether or not the page table itself is mapped
00:24:04 <geist> you absolutely need at least the first part of the exception handler mapped, at least if you're not using a task call gate or whatnot (that swaps cr3 for you)
00:24:09 <wcstok> Ah, sure, that's different than what I was getting at
00:24:35 <nur> is the pagetable mapped?
00:24:38 <nur> does it need to be>
00:24:54 <nur> I thought we got to it via physical addresses
00:24:57 <geist> it does not. CR3 and all of the inner page table pointers are physical
00:25:16 <wcstok> No it doesn't need to be. Except when you want to edit it
00:25:34 <geist> right. for example, for my first os I implemented a dynamic mapping system to let me access physical pages
00:25:53 <geist> iirc it took 256MB of kernel space, chopped it into 4MB chunks, and then used large pages to dynamically map physical pages as needed.
00:26:09 <geist> used an LRU list of mappings in case they were accessed frequently
00:26:40 <geist> but the page table code used it too. i think linux does something like this for physical space that it doesn't have directly mapped, and i've heard NT does something like this too
00:27:05 <geist> nowdayds with 64bit cpus you can generally just map all of physical space in kernel space and then it's very simple and fast to access any physical page directly
00:28:47 <nur> so if the pagetable uses physical addresses... how do you tell your code "this is a physical address" ... in your page fault handler. Since all addresses are run through the MMU once virtual memory is on
00:29:16 <geist> you have to track physical memory separately from virtual memory
00:29:39 <geist> that's why you'll hear us say things like the pmm (physical memory manager) and the vmm (virtual memory manager)
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00:30:06 <geist> ie, its your job to know what physical page is free and what is in use, an what its in use doing
00:30:25 <nur> gotcha.
00:31:38 <nur> so when you say "keep track of", in practical terms, it means we declare an unsigned int to store a number, and that number is a physical address but only we know what it is?
00:31:55 <nur> since the code can't "use" physical addresses
00:32:44 <geist> there are many algoriths
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00:33:00 <geist> but they're generally more complicated than what you described
00:33:13 <geist> however, i need to get going, so i think someone else will need to carry this particular torch
00:33:36 <nur> yeah but I meant you can't do int * x and treat x like a pointer.
00:33:49 <nur> because pointers don't store physical addresses
00:33:52 * wcstok refuses on the grounds that vmm stands for too many different things
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00:37:36 <graphitemaster> geist, have you ever looked into Intel MPX ?
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00:57:41 <doug16k> wcstok, I know you were kidding, but the double-fault handler does not get any return address pushed to the stack in the interrupt frame. you can't continue, period
00:58:25 <Kazinsal> that sounds like a horrible, awful, hilarious challenge :P
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01:00:03 <doug16k> it seems feasible but since you require a special stack for double fault if you expect it to work, you have lost the original kernel stack completely, so you become lost completely. intel isn't kidding when they say double-fault is an abort
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01:01:03 <doug16k> it doesn't even push cs. you get zero
01:01:21 <Kazinsal> yeah not a whole lot you can do
01:01:54 <Kazinsal> maybe if you're a clustered system you can set up some kind of emergency environment where you can ping another node and say "I'm dead, take over for me"
01:02:34 <Kazinsal> but that's assuming you can restart enough with a static configuration to get out an oh-shit notice
01:02:42 <doug16k> yeah you can get out of it but whatever it was doing is pretty much unrecoverable
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01:04:05 <doug16k> I had a problem with a runaway stack, and it hit a guard page on my kernel stack, so it double faulted, and I was shocked to see that it totally lost what it was doing, no idea where on the stack it was going nuts, no idea what code did it
01:04:33 <doug16k> I did have cr2, but no idea what code did it
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03:49:32 <Sjors> doug16k: you could figure out what thread was failing, though, right?
03:49:54 <Sjors> doug16k: no idea how this would work on SMP, but otherwise you could have a global pointing at the last scheduled thread
03:50:27 <Sjors> doug16k: then at least you could block that thread and let the rest continue running if you would be so horribly inclined :D
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12:38:39 <rain1> https://jsandler18.github.io im just reading this its really good
12:38:39 <bslsk05> ​jsandler18.github.io: Tutorial
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13:58:07 <radens> Dumb question: say I'm running code in kernel mode. Can there be an access violation when touching memory which is RWX and present?
13:58:45 <radens> The post mortem dump I'm looking at leads me to believe this is what happened, but that seems ridiculous. This is on i386.
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14:00:41 <Kazinsal> Data runs off the end of the CS limit, reserved bits accidentally set in the PTE
14:00:43 <gamozo> could happen if your TLBs are screwed, are you invlpging in your mapping routine?
14:01:01 <gamozo> you could also have corruption of your page tables and you're observing it far from the issue
14:01:25 <gamozo> if you enabled SMEP/SMAP and the pagees are marked user you could get a page fault as you cannot touch user pages from kernel
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14:02:08 <gamozo> probably a few more edge cases but those are the most obvious I could think of
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14:15:22 <radens> I don't think it's SMEP/SMAP because the pages are marked kernel according to the post mortem dump. The CS limit is interesting though.
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14:57:59 <krzywix-> radens: guard page?
14:58:13 <krzywix-> anyway it all depends on VAD tree
14:58:27 <krzywix-> bitflip on memory?
14:58:36 <krzywix-> plenty of reasons
15:02:22 <bcos> radens: Did you forget to invalidate the TLB?
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16:32:34 <doug16k> radens, check the error code for the page fault against the page table entry. if they disagree, it is probably a stale TLB. in any case, the error code will tell you why the CPU thought it should fault
16:33:10 <doug16k> was it a page fault? which exception exactly?
16:34:16 <rain1> how do you guys get the motivation to build a whole OS?
16:34:32 <vdamewood> I didn't.
16:36:30 <gamozo> osdev was a tool to solve a problem for me, and that problem was important to me
16:36:46 <gamozo> didn't really do it just for fun or with no purpose in need
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16:47:31 <doug16k> radens, oh, also check all levels of the page tables. the cpu takes all levels of the page tables into consideration, don't just check the outermost level. the last level page table entry could be perfect and it will still fault because of another level
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16:51:00 <doug16k> radens, see table 5-3 in section 5-12 in volume 3 of the intel manual
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16:52:58 <doug16k> the gist: read only overrides read-write, supervisor overrides user
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17:12:41 <doug16k> ...and execute-disable overrides execute-enabled
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17:18:31 <pounce> for those x86_64 devs here: do you allow x86 userspace processes?
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17:51:29 <warnock> Is there something special I have to do to stop qemu with gdb? C-c gives me a "Remote communication error. Target disconnected.: Connection reset by peer." then kills qemu
17:51:51 <warnock> to be more clear I want to stop execution without a breakpoint
17:52:12 <Mutabah> Ctrl-C in gdb or qemu?
17:52:31 <warnock> gdb
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17:53:44 <Mutabah> Does it have any error above that?
17:53:52 <Mutabah> something like "remote 'g' packet too long"?
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17:56:10 <warnock> there is a "qemu-system-x86_64: terminating on signal 2"
17:56:26 <Mutabah> No, in the GDB... wait what?
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17:56:36 <Mutabah> How are you linking the two?
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17:56:45 <Mutabah> `qemu -S`?
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17:57:58 <warnock> oh duh, I'm running qemu in the background as a part of the same command because im lazy, "qemu ... & gdb ..."
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17:58:47 <warnock> -S -s then "gdb -ex "target remote localhost:1234""
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18:05:54 <Mutabah> warnock: Might be because you're running them with the same command
18:06:04 <Mutabah> I'm not sure what happens then when gdb closes
18:06:15 <Mutabah> or what happens when you Ctrl-C the window :)
18:06:32 <warnock> you're probably right
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18:21:17 <warnock> Mutabah: launching them separately did fix it, thanks
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19:27:34 <promach_> could gdb debug mutltithread c code ?
19:29:23 <Mutabah> sure
19:29:36 <Mutabah> it can and it does
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19:31:34 <promach_> Mutabah: really ?
19:32:39 <Mutabah> Yes really. Why are you asking isntead of just looking it up?
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19:35:43 <promach_> I have tried.
19:35:47 <promach_> Mutabah: it does not
19:37:11 <Mutabah> Citation?
19:37:39 <Mutabah> Last I checked, you can do `set thread <n>` to change which thread's state you're inspecting
19:37:48 <Mutabah> and when gdb breaks your program, it will pause all threads
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19:42:26 <promach_> Mutabah: let me try https://ftp.gnu.org/old-gnu/Manuals/gdb/html_node/gdb_24.html
19:42:27 <bslsk05> ​ftp.gnu.org: Debugging with GDB - Threads
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19:43:38 <promach_> In particular, GDB cannot single-step all threads in lockstep. Since thread scheduling is up to your debugging target's operating system (not controlled by GDB), other threads may execute more than one statement while the current thread completes a single step.
19:43:42 <promach_> Mutabah
19:45:28 <Mutabah> That doesn't mean that it can't debug multithreaded applications
19:45:38 <Mutabah> Just that it can't deterministically single-step them
19:45:59 <promach_> Mutabah: but my current problem/bug has to do with single-step
19:46:33 <Mutabah> (oh, and here's the new version of that page afaik https://sourceware.org/gdb/onlinedocs/gdb/Threads.html)
19:46:34 <bslsk05> ​sourceware.org: Debugging with GDB: Threads
19:46:45 <Mutabah> Well, that doesn't mean that it can't debug them
19:47:10 <Mutabah> Anyway - You should still be able to debug that, just might need more thinking (or some different debugging techniques)
19:48:26 <promach_> Mutabah: ok, thanks for the advice
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22:36:37 <doug16k> promach_, you can step a single thread by executing this command in gdb: set scheduler-locking on
22:36:46 <doug16k> or set scheduler-locking step
22:37:00 <doug16k> it will only step the current thread, all other cpus will stay frozen
22:37:10 <doug16k> in qemu gdb, a thread is a cpu
22:38:11 <doug16k> with "on" all commands will only affect the current cpu, including c (continue). with scheduler-locking step, it will only make step commands affect one cpu, other commands will work normally
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23:00:09 <promach_> doug16k: I have 3 threads in total
23:00:55 <promach_> 'set scheduler-locking on' will not solve my current problem/bug
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23:22:06 <doug16k> promach_, you have 3 cpus?
23:22:14 <doug16k> in qemu?
23:22:30 <doug16k> no command will "solve" anything
23:22:40 <doug16k> sorry I wasted my time with you
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23:35:28 <promach_> doug16k: three threads, not three cpus
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