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#osdev2 = #osdev @ Libera from 23may2021 to present
#osdev @ OPN/FreeNode from 3apr2001 to 23may2021
all other channels are on OPN/FreeNode from 2004 to present
http://bespin.org/~qz/search/?view=1&c=osdev&y=18&m=5&d=19
00:00:00 --- log: started osdev/18.05.19
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00:23:08 <ljc> hey so i've just done the barebones tutorial and i've read that you can pass in a serial device with qemu, ie `qemu-system-i386 .. console=ttyS0`
00:23:43 <ljc> the idea being that i can make a serial device driver to print out to a serial device on the host. apparently ttyS0 is at 0x3f8
00:24:40 <ljc> does that sound legit? :d
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01:23:10 <variable> hi
01:23:44 <variable> newsham: doug16k isn't windows 3.1 the one that has the loop during boot to detect "too fast" CPUs ?
01:24:49 * variable tries cloning a repo with git-svn: r53643 out of 333703 after 6 hours
01:24:50 <variable> :\
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02:36:01 <geist> ljc: yep
02:37:04 <ljc> literally just got qemu to send a character to a nc session listening on a tcp port
02:37:21 <ljc> even though it's from the monitor it's cool to be able to debug things like this
02:37:28 <ljc> serial devices are pretty new to me
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02:38:39 <ljc> thanks btw
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02:41:20 <mardikene123> geist: problems are simple, same thing with law officers in estonia, brain implants/grafts are pretty much new area of expertise, so everyone just ignore his nonsense spewing acqusational hallucinations!
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02:45:09 <geist> okay then.
02:48:09 <aalm> :x
02:48:14 <aalm> what was that
02:50:06 <ybden> not seen them in a while
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03:16:04 <geist> yeah they're mostly sending me pages and pages of text in privmsg
03:16:08 <geist> *shrug*
03:16:17 <geist> i guess i'm the new target now
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03:20:07 <Kelpies> variable, Win 3.1 is my specialty... ! YES.
03:20:29 <variable> Kelpies: hrm?
03:20:38 <variable> also, I found a bug
03:20:44 <variable> but I have no idea if its a bug in python or libc
03:20:52 <Kelpies> hmm?
03:20:53 <variable> and python is not making it easy to debug this
03:20:56 <variable> :(
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03:21:08 <variable> yay gratuitous differences
03:21:32 <variable> fsck it
03:21:36 <variable> I'll file a bug
03:22:03 <Kelpies> oh yeah, win 3.1 machines are definitely going to tell you not to use the turbo key before startup of windows... you'll want to use it right after.
03:22:30 <variable> Kelpies: why is it your speciality ?
03:22:36 <Kelpies> I had one
03:22:42 <variable> also doesn't the turbo key traditionally _slow down_ your machine?
03:22:54 <variable> like it underclocks your CPU so games run nicely?
03:23:17 <Kelpies> nope!
03:23:28 <Kelpies> problem with the turbo key is fried cpu's
03:23:29 <Kelpies> :D
03:23:53 <variable> Kelpies: are fried CPUs as delicious as fried eggs?
03:24:14 <Kelpies> no, this shit is rare now
03:24:16 <Kelpies> :D
03:24:25 <variable> :"(
03:26:51 <Kelpies> nah, I think for games, it does traditionally speed up or slow down the cpu for them.
03:27:02 <Kelpies> I didn't have a turbo key
03:27:05 <Kelpies> but my ex did
03:27:28 <Kelpies> I had the HACK ME FOR INTERNET computer.
03:27:36 <variable> Kelpies: so, I looked it up
03:27:44 <variable> I am correct
03:27:56 <variable> it was fairly common to have a turbo key that /defaulted on/
03:28:08 <Kelpies> yeah
03:28:14 <variable> the intent was that you can unpress the button when you were playing games
03:28:24 <variable> that relied on the CPUs clock being slow
03:29:54 <Kelpies> yep, and I didn't have a turbo key and ~asterisk didn't run
03:30:10 <Kelpies> on the right frequency it would have.
03:30:38 <Kelpies> actually had to take apart that computer afterwards
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03:30:49 <Kelpies> it "ran"
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03:35:31 <Kelpies> my computer is now going to be 5 years old
03:35:38 <Kelpies> :D
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03:40:23 <variable> Kelpies: scary
03:41:52 <mischief> so what
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03:49:23 <klange> getting these damn nested menus to work was such a pain in the ass the first time, I thought /maybe/ porting my python implementation to C wouldn't be too much of a challenge, but, nope, still a pain in the ass. https://i.imgur.com/J8BWMBF.png
03:49:57 <rain1> thats funny iwouldn't have thought that to be very hard
03:50:05 <rain1> but ive never implemented it myself
03:50:19 <klange> The biggest challenges come from the window focus management.
03:50:46 <klange> You want to close child menus when you switch a higher level menu, you want the whole thing to collapse when window focus leaves all of the menus, etc.
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03:51:15 <klange> I might have forced myself into a hard place with how window focus is communicated in my window server...
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04:54:06 <Kelpies> klange, there are a few people who can help you later today... geist, doug16k, and variable all have some pretty decent knowledge that I know of, but require being awake and active on IRC.
04:55:26 <klange> I think you're confused about something.
04:59:52 <Kelpies> not really, I forgot about you too. :3c
05:00:25 <klange> I am, indeed, someone who can help me, and I did :)
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06:29:00 <ljc> hm i'm getting a gcc error stating "no such instruction" for `outl dx, eax'
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06:35:06 <klange> ljc: either you have your registers backwards (out instructions output to eax and take dx as their index - and you can't use others), or you're writing assembly in a style that does not have size specifiers and that should always be `out`
06:36:01 <klange> It's either `outl %eax, %dx` or `out dx, eax`
06:36:39 <ljc> ah, right
06:36:58 <ljc> it's funny because it didn't complained about `outb` and `outd`
06:37:07 <ljc> er `outw`
06:41:54 <ljc> (and yes, i'm using the intel syntax)
06:47:44 <ljc> thanks for the tip klange
06:47:54 <ljc> pretty late here, time to call it a night
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11:19:53 * geist yawns
11:20:43 <lachlan_s> Morning geist
11:20:51 <geist> morn
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11:23:34 <geist> there, moved to a different freenode server
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12:59:54 <sortie> Good evening
13:00:01 <rain1> hi
13:00:06 <sortie> Please let the mandatory weekend osdev presentations commence
13:00:16 <sortie> rain1, I believe you're up. Please show the class what you have been working on.
13:00:30 <rain1> i didnt make an OS :(
13:00:46 <sortie> That's okay :)
13:00:51 <sortie> I'm just starting a conversation :P
13:01:05 <sortie> Honestly I haven't done as much osdev recently as I wanted to, other life stuff going on, and all that
13:01:20 <sortie> I should be working a bit on TCP but I kinda want to hack a bit on my init(8)
13:01:34 <rain1> I did linux from scratch
13:01:42 <sortie> Ah that's nice, that's good experience
13:01:56 <sortie> Advanced osdev of a POSIX system is surprisingly similar to LFS
13:02:11 <rain1> i have been wondering about init systems a lot, I was tinkering with s6 a bit
13:02:25 <drakonis> ah yes, init
13:02:36 <sortie> Yeah the s6 author suggested to me that I merge fd passing and port s6
13:02:51 <sortie> drakonis: All good stories starts with an init.
13:02:54 <drakonis> of course he'll want his thing to run on your OS
13:03:03 <rain1> it's a bit of a tough topic to learn about - i know they have to a lot of things but not sure exacltl what :)
13:03:11 <rain1> on linux its got to make the filesystem writable
13:03:44 <sortie> rain1: Kinda depends on how stuff is started
13:04:05 <sortie> One traditional way is to tell the kernel what the root filesystem is, and it mounts it as /, and it's read write automatically
13:04:31 <sortie> Another way is to have a ramdisk containing a minimal / with an init and other things, it looks for the real root filesystem, and then init mounts that on top of /
13:04:46 <sortie> My OS does the second, so the kernel doesn't need to be involved at all
13:04:48 <drakonis> initramfs comes to mind
13:05:16 <rain1> in your one does the init system change between those 2 stages?
13:05:24 <sortie> Yeah
13:05:47 <sortie> rain1: My init is very simple, it has assumptions relating to my OS but that's fine, it's just one way to do stuff https://users-cs.au.dk/~sortie/sortix/release/nightly/man/man8/init.8.html https://gitlab.com/sortix/sortix/blob/master/init/init.c
13:05:48 <bslsk05> users-cs.au.dk: init(8)
13:05:49 <bslsk05> gitlab.com: init/init.c · master · sortix / Sortix · GitLab
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13:06:08 <sortie> No daemon support, that's one thing I'd like to code on tonight
13:06:35 <CompanionCube> so how will you be implementing daemons?
13:06:42 <rain1> ah this is nice readable code
13:06:46 <sortie> :)
13:06:58 <Ameisen> First, you start with angel processes, and then you corrupt them.
13:07:05 <Ameisen> now you have dæmons.
13:07:17 * CompanionCube has once thought of an init system equvialent of The Borg.
13:07:20 <sortie> Ameisen: No that's how you bootstrap emacs by dumping the heap
13:08:12 * Ameisen waits to see someone fully implement Linux _inside_ of Windows. Not in hyperv or such. As a set of Windows processes, using wrappers around the Windows drivers for Linux drivers.
13:08:21 <sortie> CompanionCube: Nothing too fancy. Configuration files for each service, dependencies, how to start stuff, then it does topological sort to start them in the right order, brings up the system, keeps track of the pids, on shut down it kills the processes in reverse order.
13:08:42 <sortie> Ameisen: Isn't that literally WSL?
13:08:43 <CompanionCube> sortie: yay for actual supervision?
13:08:57 <sortie> CompanionCube: I mean that whole doublefork thing is just forked uå
13:08:58 <sortie> up
13:09:04 <Ameisen> sortie - maybe? The current Linux development tools for Windows is a version of Ubuntu or Debian running under hyper-v.
13:09:13 <sortie> No
13:09:22 <sortie> It's a Windows *Subsystem*
13:09:29 <CompanionCube> WSL essentially mimics the binary interface for the linux kernel
13:09:38 <CompanionCube> this works because torvalds is extremely strict about that.
13:09:40 <sortie> Windows supports OS personalities, they implemented the Linux syscalls
13:09:53 <CompanionCube> sortie: isn't that the old way they did it
13:09:57 <CompanionCube> whereas WSL does it differently
13:10:01 <Ameisen> ah
13:10:10 <Ameisen> Last I tried it, it required hyperv to be enabled.
13:10:12 <sortie> CompanionCube: Not as far as I know, but I wouldn't know, but that's a sensible way to do it and I thin they did it
13:10:19 <Ameisen> It also failed when I installed the latest version of Ubuntu.
13:10:29 <sortie> I'm however not a Windows user, I wouldn't know
13:10:43 <variable> hi
13:10:51 <Ameisen> It's basically a fancier version of mingw?
13:10:54 <CompanionCube> doesn't look like it
13:10:54 <sortie> I'm a credentialed osdever, so I have the executive privilege not to use Windows
13:10:56 <CompanionCube> ' Instead of wrapping non-native functionality into Win32 system calls, WSL leverages the NT kernel executive to serve Linux programs as special, isolated minimal processes (known as "pico-processes") attached to kernel-mode "pico-providers" as dedicated system call and exception handlers distinct from that of a vanilla NT proces'
13:11:01 <sortie> Hey variable, how are you?
13:11:02 <Ameisen> without requiring rebuilding?
13:11:05 <variable> sortie: ohai
13:11:11 <variable> I'm not doing that great today
13:11:12 <sortie> variable: Ohoy
13:11:14 <variable> :(
13:11:15 <Ameisen> I wonder how they handle fork
13:11:46 <sortie> variable: Oh that sucks, hope you get better, here's a smiley :)
13:11:56 <variable> sortie: thanks!
13:11:59 <variable> how are you ?
13:12:04 <sortie> I have a bit of an headache
13:12:20 <dbittman_> has anyone around here implemented nvme support?
13:12:21 <sortie> Otherwise, I'm good. Sunny weather here, went for a long walk, a good day after a long and a bit hard week
13:12:29 <sortie> dbittman_: I believe geist is into that
13:12:37 <dbittman_> that makes sense...
13:12:43 <variable> sortie: aww. have a platypus https://www.nationalgeographic.com/content/dam/animals/pictures/mammals/p/platypus/platypus.adapt.1190.1.JPG
13:12:49 <dbittman_> that's probably my next project.
13:13:00 <sortie> variable: It's cool animals
13:13:01 <Ameisen> looks like WSL performance is pretty awful
13:13:06 <Ameisen> according to phoronix, at least
13:13:16 <variable> I wouldn't trust phoronix
13:13:18 <Ameisen> even compared to just Linux in VBox
13:13:21 <sortie> Ameisen: Well Windows performance isn't that great in the first place
13:13:34 <Ameisen> Sure, but Windows performance isn't _that_ bad
13:13:41 <Ameisen> looks like the main issue is I/O
13:13:58 <sortie> Well my Windows experience often is badly scheduled IO
13:14:04 <sortie> I should go SSD
13:14:09 <Ameisen> WSL is pretty fast or normal when it's pure CPU tasks
13:14:15 <sortie> Linux also is pretty bad about swapping
13:14:22 <Ameisen> That is, Windows IO is still way faster than WSL IO
13:14:26 <Ameisen> something's up with WSL's IO
13:14:54 <doug16k> dbittman_, I implemented nvme
13:15:12 <Ameisen> Windows Defender apparently causes WSL IO issues as well
13:15:21 <Ameisen> then again, WIndows Defender causes IO issues for Windows itself.
13:16:25 <Ameisen> I should try WSL again. Be nice developing for Linux in VC++
13:16:37 <dbittman_> doug16k: how was it? I haven't really started looking into implementation yet, but I probably will soon. Any suggestion for good docs beyond any official specs?
13:16:38 <Ameisen> though VC++ can remotely debug and test Linux apps as well
13:16:54 <Ameisen> though they 'fine-tuned' the process in newer versions of C++, which also broke my MIPS debugger :(
13:17:12 <doug16k> dbittman_, nvme is beautiful. it's the most no-BS driver I've written yet
13:17:13 <Ameisen> they used to use a gdb wrapper. They changed it to a more direct approach, which means that my gdb wrapper for their gdb wrapper stopped working.
13:17:18 <Ameisen> And couldn't talk to my emulator's gdb server.
13:17:37 <Ameisen> They confirmed it in a few email exchanges that I had with them.
13:18:18 <doug16k> dbittman_, https://github.com/doug65536/dgos/blob/master/kernel/device/nvme.cc
13:18:21 <bslsk05> github.com: dgos/nvme.cc at master · doug65536/dgos · GitHub
13:18:29 <dbittman_> doug16k: :) sweet. I remember finding ahci nice after all the other crap, so if this is even better, I'm looking forward to it
13:18:42 <dbittman_> oh, thanks!
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13:19:40 <doug16k> dbittman_, my driver is fairly aggressive - it has per-cpu submission/completion queues, I/O requests run on the queue dedicated to the calling CPU, and the completion IRQ is routed to the CPU that issued the request. all CPUs can concurrently issue requests and handle completions
13:20:01 <doug16k> and even with that, it is fairly straightforward
13:20:45 <doug16k> it's shockingly fast in stress on my 960 pro nvme ssd
13:21:11 <doug16k> dbittman_, oh, and I implemented nvme tracing in qemu. add -trace nvme_* to add tracing
13:21:33 <dbittman_> doug16k: I was planning to do that as well, since I might as well be fancy.
13:21:38 <doug16k> it detects every case of undefined behaviour I could find, and gives detailed error information
13:21:46 <dbittman_> oh that's awesome
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13:22:08 <Ameisen> looks like they still have a GDB interface setup though (according to their last correspondance with me), but it requires you tto specify architecture
13:22:17 <Ameisen> before, I didn't, it just picked up the registers/etc from what GDB told it
13:22:22 <Ameisen> VC++ has no idea what AVR or MIPS are
13:22:28 <Ameisen> so... not sure what I'd specify, there.
13:22:30 <dbittman_> i remember having qemu dislike my ahci driver for a while, so that'll be nice.
13:22:41 <Ameisen> well, lldb, but same difference, here.
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13:29:27 <doug16k> dbittman_, my nvme driver works in qemu and on my real 1TB 960 pro M.2 SSD, btw
13:31:52 <dbittman_> sweet, thanks for the pointer. I'll use it as a reference while working my way through the specs.
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13:32:16 <doug16k> if you got ahci working, you probably won't have much trouble with nvme
13:32:36 <dbittman_> :)
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13:48:13 <t3hn3rd> Anyone had experience with the RTL8201BL chip and drivers?
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13:50:02 <doug16k> t3hn3rd, there's a datasheet for that realtek thing? what sorcery is this?
13:50:25 <_mjg_> geist: dev progress in the netbsd land
13:50:39 <geist> what was i supposed to do?
13:51:02 <_mjg_> geist: utilizing the direct map instead of temporary mappings for reads from the buffer cache
13:51:10 <geist> uh that's news to me
13:51:21 <geist> oh oh, dev progress
13:51:23 <t3hn3rd> I really didn't think I'd find one, given how old the chipset is, but yeah, datasheet exists, just want to know if anyone has made a driver for one before and has any info that might be of use before I delve in.
13:51:26 <geist> i read it as 'any progress in netbsd land?'
13:51:31 <geist> like, i was suppoed to do something
13:51:38 <_mjg_> 2018 is the year of scalability past 8 cores
13:51:48 <geist> yeah i was actually trying to trace through the vfs the other dya. i had heard that netbsd does a ton of mappings like that
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13:52:03 <_mjg_> they fixed it today
13:52:10 <geist> yah if you're 64bit and you are okay with the direct map, using it to read data into and out of the buffer cache is a huge win
13:52:13 <Ameisen> What are those boards that are like FPGAs but are more simple reprogrammable logical circuits
13:52:23 <_mjg_> i may get around to giving it another spin
13:52:25 <geist> it's one of the main reasons i advocate the direct map in gneeral
13:52:37 <_mjg_> without this many rampant invalidations the thing may somewhat scale now
13:52:42 <geist> main downside is security issues, but the upsides are gigantic
13:53:05 <doug16k> Ameisen, PLA?
13:55:53 <doug16k> Ameisen, CPLD?
13:58:29 <geist> _mjg_: i had heard that it was doing a lot of map/unmaps to read the buffer cache, but somewhere along the way i thought it was being done in user space, but that seems kind of silly now
13:59:59 <Ameisen> cpld is what I think I'm thinking of.
14:00:04 <Ameisen> or PALs
14:00:04 <t3hn3rd> doug16k: is it just me or does that datasheet have next to no information on actually sending/receiving data or interrupts?
14:00:20 <Ameisen> wondering what would be ideal for validating and controlling heaters
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14:07:02 <baschdel> Are there any ascii control characters (except NULL,ESC(1B),BELL(7),BACKSPACE(8),TAB(9),NL(10),CR(13)) worth keeping? What I'm trying to do is to make an ascii compatible(ish) "standard" for keyboard input
14:07:58 <baschdel> Just wondering (should have used mybrain earlier) is thee already such a standard?
14:08:51 <climjark> like a list of ascii control characters?
14:09:23 <climjark> or their relationship to the scancode that comes from the port?
14:10:39 <sortie> baschdel: I find that many have different purposes. One interesting thing is that Control+<character> sends the byte value character - '@' 64(). So Control-C sends byte 'C' - '@' = 43 - 40 = byte 3.
14:10:56 <sortie> And those bytes have special meanings to terminal programs
14:11:33 <sortie> Byte 27 (ESC, ^[) is interesting because it's the terminal character
14:11:34 <climjark> some key presses (like i believe the arrow keys) send like 3 bytes back from the port
14:11:40 <sortie> *terminal escape character
14:11:48 <baschdel> I just want to remap keys like HOMe,END,Arrows,Pg. UP/DOWN,etc. to control caracters so i don't have to use escape sequences or 16-bit chars
14:12:36 <baschdel> "some key presses (like i believe the arrow keys) send like 3 bytes back from the port" Jap and that's what I want to avoid
14:12:42 <sortie> CompanionCube: Yep, pressing left arrow sends ^[[D (ESC [ D) on many terminals. What's really interesting is that ^[[D is the terminal escape code for 'go one column left', so what the terminal emulator is sending for 'left arrow
14:12:51 <sortie> ' actually renders as going one column left
14:12:55 <CompanionCube> pingfail
14:13:19 <sortie> For instance, try run "cat" in your terminal and type x, then left arrow, and y, and then press enter. You get y out.
14:13:42 <sortie> Many terminal input sequences actually make some logical sense like that
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14:22:17 <doug16k> t3hn3rd, probably because it is a PHY - it handles the electrical interface with the ethernet port, the modulation/demodulation. it does not include any PCI(e) interface
14:23:00 <t3hn3rd> Oh I see! Bugger. No idea where to start writing a Ethernet driver for that MOBO then.
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14:28:39 <t3hn3rd> doug16k: So from what I can gather the South-bridge controller (NVIDIAnForce2™ MCP) is the beast I need to wrangle with?
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14:31:03 <doug16k> t3hn3rd, looks like it. wikipedia page for that chipset says a version of it integrates an nV and 3Com 3C905 NIC
14:31:11 <t3hn3rd> Motherboard datasheet states "Component 17: LAN (RJ-45) port. Using the NVMAC17the Realtek 8201BL LAN PHY, this port allows connection to a Local AreaNetwork (LAN) through a network hub."
14:33:13 <t3hn3rd> Rabbit-holes! Rabbit-holes everywhere!
14:34:19 <baschdel> If somebody is interested: my slightly modyfied version of ascii (thrown together in about 10 min.) is here: https://yourpart.eu/p/icefire_ascii
14:34:19 <bslsk05> yourpart.eu: Etherpad
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14:41:33 <doug16k> baschdel, instead of redefining ascii, I put my special virtual keys at values >= 0x101000, which is outside the unicode range. that way I can represent every possible character or keypress uniformly in my low level keyboard API
14:43:40 <doug16k> I also added virtual key codes for every character defined in the USB spec, which includes every imaginable key
14:44:13 <doug16k> s/character/key/
14:44:24 <baschdel> I don't want to go above one byte but I'll use unicode as soon as I move this to userspace
14:44:43 <baschdel> looks
14:45:00 <baschdel> interesting
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14:46:18 <doug16k> https://github.com/doug65536/dgos/blob/master/kernel/lib/keyboard.h#L6
14:46:20 <bslsk05> github.com: dgos/keyboard.h at master · doug65536/dgos · GitHub
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15:26:05 <variable> the best test of a VM subsystem
15:26:07 <variable> linking clang
15:26:09 <variable> </joke>
15:26:48 <geist> ah with lto, yeah
15:27:04 <geist> though i haven't watched it, does it churn the address space much or just allocate a lot of mem?
15:30:19 <_mjg_> c++ compilers eat a lot of memory to give you a feel how using the result will feel like
15:33:16 <variable> geist: both
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16:01:30 <Ameisen> at least the compiler generlaly have options to control how much they will optimize over LTO 'chunks'
16:01:38 <Ameisen> otherwise resource usage can balloon pretty quickly
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16:04:42 <geist> linking clang itself is pretty srs business. it takes a good 20 minutes and tens of GB last time i ran it on a fairly quick x86
16:04:57 <geist> i linked on an arm cavium machine and it took i think 57 minutes to link
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16:05:10 <Ameisen> true
16:05:15 <Ameisen> GCC ain't much better though
16:05:31 <Ameisen> I wonder how long it takes to link MSVC
16:07:21 <graphitemaster> msvc has one of the slowest linkers
16:07:33 <graphitemaster> so probably a couple hours
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16:12:57 <geist> that was LTO of course. without LTO it's jsut a fairly large C++ project. takes a minute or so
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16:19:29 <ybden> ah, I see you haven't tried compiling rust, then
16:20:31 <geist> well, actually yes. the fuchsia project has a fair amount of rust in it, and yeah the rustc compiling is sloooow
16:20:34 <geist> it really sticks out
16:22:03 <ybden> gcc: Wed Feb 14 10:54:20 2018: 29 minutes, 29 seconds
16:22:06 <ybden> rust: Wed Feb 14 11:28:17 2018: 43 minutes, 43 seconds
16:22:12 <ybden> this is on a beefy computer
16:23:06 <ybden> not including the 15 minutes it takes for llvm
16:23:31 <ybden> gcc compiles mercifully quick compared to rust
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16:52:51 <graphitemaster> well, rust usually takes time to form
16:53:09 <graphitemaster> *hayoo*
16:53:14 <graphitemaster> also, chrome will never rust
16:53:18 <graphitemaster> *hayoo*
16:53:46 <graphitemaster> also, rust is only safe when you get a tetanus shot before writing it
16:53:49 <graphitemaster> *hayoo*
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16:54:36 <graphitemaster> I'm impressed with my top keks this fine evening, what is everyone up to?
16:55:59 <geist> your keks are off the hizzy
16:56:26 <t3h_n3rd> Making a poor-mans KVM/IP using a Pi3 & Pi0 so that myself and Co-Dev can work on the physical testing machine from our local machine (incl access to BIOS, etc)
16:57:23 <t3h_n3rd> Fingers crossed it works
17:00:28 <sortie> Playing a bit with init and daemons tonight
17:00:55 <sortie> http://sortix.sortix.org/ ← My OS running OpenBSD's httpd, hosting the website for my OS.
17:00:56 <bslsk05> sortix.sortix.org: The Sortix Operating System
17:01:23 <t3h_n3rd> Show-off >_>
17:01:25 <t3h_n3rd> :P
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17:01:53 <sortie> osdev is all about show and tell
17:02:11 <t3h_n3rd> Oh, I know, I'm just jealous and lashing out ;)
17:02:23 <sortie> :)
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19:04:06 <ljc> so i've implemented an `outl(value, port)` and running qemu with `-serial tcp:127.0.0.1:5003`, with nc listening on that port
19:04:31 <ljc> when calling `outl(0x65656565, 0x3f8)` nc then receives 1 character instead of 4
19:05:16 <Mutabah> That's the serial port right? Yeah, you only write bytes to that
19:05:26 <Mutabah> the mere fact that it sends anything is pure luck
19:07:04 <ljc> right yep, serial
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19:11:26 <geist> right, that's an 8 bit register. the original 8250 chip would have only had the bottom 8 bits wired up on the data lines anyway
19:11:41 <geist> so if you wrote more than that it would have just dropped everything else
19:11:54 <geist> and an original PC was an 8088 and only had 8 data lines anyway
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19:12:38 <geist> so qemu in this case is precisely emulating it
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19:18:24 <Mutabah> Huh, interesting
19:18:39 <ljc> hm ok, cool
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20:14:10 <ALowther> Hi :). A couple of thoughts for the day. All client-server communications take place through ports? If a port isn't being specified while writing a command that is likely because a default port is in place and is used unless otherwise specified? On the wire, the data is just 0's and 1's, so the protocol must very specifically define acceptable patterns and block sizes so that the data can be properly reassembled and decoded?
20:14:40 <Mutabah> uuuh
20:14:43 <Mutabah> Yes?
20:15:27 <Mutabah> With TCP/UDP - communications happen over numbered ports (which are a feature of those two protocols)
20:15:57 <jjuran> There are client-server communications??
20:16:19 <Mutabah> On the wire, there's a rather deep stack protocols that build on the underlying bitstream (and below the bitstream there's actual wire encoding)
20:18:18 <jjuran> There are deep stack protocols??
20:18:28 <geist> Mutabah: what you say!!!
20:18:51 <ALowther> Mutabah: Okay, great, thank you. These are my, I'm a 5 year old and I just stumbled upon some thoughts that everybody else already knew about, but are monumental for my own understanding.
20:19:25 <dmh> when do you not specify a port? :P
20:19:34 <dmh> like GUIs hiding them from you?
20:19:49 <geist> well, if you open an ephemeral port, you basically tell the os you dont care
20:19:52 <geist> but it assigns you one
20:20:08 <Mutabah> dmh: Or when you just let an application use its default?
20:20:09 <ALowther> dmh: SSH for instance. If the port is 22, I don't ever have to type it
20:20:26 <dmh> yea, but I mean the actual connection code always has to specify it :p
20:20:45 <dmh> and people can change servers from usual ports of course
20:21:03 <geist> right
20:21:17 <geist> the target port when making an outgoing connection must be specified yes
20:21:44 <geist> the unique combination of source ip, source port, dest ip, dest port is the full unique connection pair
20:21:48 <dmh> i think the only exception is unix named sockets?
20:22:12 <geist> that's not TCP/IP.
20:22:26 <ALowther> Can you have an application that instead of using a port says, send me all traffic that has a header that has pattern x? Or would that be so inefficient we went with ports?
20:22:40 <dmh> as per above, not on TCP/IP
20:22:49 <dmh> magic packets suck anyway
20:23:09 <Mutabah> ALowther: That's kinda what the port number is
20:23:31 <dmh> oh wait, i think i misunderstood. like you could if you wanted jam multiple things over one port and then demux in software
20:23:38 <dmh> at no benefit
20:27:11 <ALowther> Great. As always, you are all so helpful. Peeling through abstractions one step at a time. Thank you.
20:28:37 * geist beams
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20:45:04 <klange> yay menus https://youtu.be/aZ_SewGgwt4
20:45:05 <bslsk05> 'ToaruOS-NIH - menus' by K Lange (00:01:11)
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21:01:51 <ljc> nice klange
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21:42:07 <dmh> make PIE MENUS EVERYWHER
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23:01:10 <Drakonis[m]> https://i.redd.it/rvfrydaetvy01.jpg
23:01:43 <geist> wat
23:02:29 <klange> that's a happy doggo
23:03:31 <_mjg_> sigh
23:03:39 <ljc> clean teeth
23:03:59 <_mjg_> i'm going to setup a patreon
23:04:05 <_mjg_> goal: i don't want to work anymore
23:04:08 <_mjg_> stay tuned
23:04:15 <ljc> gl
23:04:28 <geist> yeah that happens
23:04:31 <Drakonis[m]> what can we pay you to do?
23:04:42 <_mjg_> i said i'm not doing any paid work anymore
23:04:45 <_mjg_> patreon is there to fund me
23:04:49 <_mjg_> doing nothing
23:04:55 <geist> i'm currently in a bit of stress induced need to stop working
23:05:02 <_mjg_> 8)
23:05:08 <_mjg_> i'm a little bit burned out
23:05:22 <_mjg_> everything is either old as shit and has stupid warts or is web 2.0-infested
23:05:22 <geist> yeah
23:05:26 <geist> i totally hear you
23:05:42 <_mjg_> if i did not have to earn any money i would start something from scratch
23:05:48 <_mjg_> with a middle finger in the logo
23:05:49 <geist> i experience is just go do something else for a few weeks and your brain will probably rebound
23:09:33 <_mjg_> ye
23:09:34 <Drakonis[m]> btw, doggo teeth is shopped
23:09:39 <Drakonis[m]> but doggo smile is real
23:10:08 <_mjg_> geist: i'm sometimes getting a little bit disheartened with bsd too, so to speak
23:10:40 <_mjg_> any file you open there is tons of legacy stuff which was not necessarily stelar when it was introduced either
23:11:18 <_mjg_> i scaled down to doing whatever i consider most fun and straight up ignoring anything but most fatal problems
23:11:24 <geist> yep. but it also teaches you a bit that not everything has to be perfect
23:11:26 <_mjg_> not a healthy attidude to have in a project
23:11:47 <_mjg_> well it has to be good enough, time is finite after all
23:11:51 <geist> the i guess core of engineering is deciding what is most important
23:11:55 <_mjg_> but the 'good enough' tends to be way worse than it has to be
23:11:56 <geist> right
23:12:14 <geist> but figuring out how to live with that is the hard part. one that i'm currently dealing with myself
23:12:33 <geist> trouble is of course that most of the time the really fun stuff isn't the lowest hanging fruit
23:12:37 <_mjg_> from what i understand you got a project from scratch at work :]
23:12:42 <geist> so you have to work on the boring stuff that probably makes the biggest difference
23:13:10 <_mjg_> so at least you don't have legacy bullshit to swim through
23:13:16 <geist> but i think the way to stay sane is to give yourself a good juicy fun thing every so often, even if it's not going to matter that much in the grand scheme of things
23:13:28 <_mjg_> yea
23:13:35 <_mjg_> nice little win helps a lot, see the syscalls thingy
23:13:42 <geist> this is very true. not having to deal with legacy is great
23:14:10 <geist> now does your syscall optimization *really* matter for most things? probably not at all
23:14:19 <geist> but it definitely feels good
23:14:37 <_mjg_> it was bugging me for quite some time
23:14:42 <geist> and enough of those and it starts to add up
23:14:49 <_mjg_> but ye, not going to make postgres twice less slow
23:15:00 <geist> it's like grinding for hours for a 0.5% dps increase in some gear in some MMO
23:15:05 <_mjg_> 8)
23:15:12 <geist> maybe not so great, but then do that 5 or 10 times and now you're talking real numbers
23:15:36 <_mjg_> interestingly hands down the biggest real-world win I got from c code was almost a one-liner
23:16:01 <geist> that unforuntunately happens more often than i'd like
23:16:02 <_mjg_> there was a stupid perf bug resulting in an avoidable atomic in the fast path
23:16:10 <_mjg_> guess what was happening under contention :S
23:16:18 <geist> one of the reasons i get fairly ansy about toolchain changes made willy nilly, and folks adding layers of c++ without considering the ramifications
23:16:54 <_mjg_> i think the biggest win in general was changing a wtf shell for loop with fork/exec fest with a find | xargs
23:17:00 <_mjg_> but that's a cliche win
23:17:02 <geist> i've definitely been put in the scenario many times in my career of angsting over tiny details in my layer, tyring to optimize it, and then having 2 layers up folks are just blatting out tons of completely unoptimized javascript or whatnot
23:17:07 <geist> and you start to wonder why bother
23:17:21 <_mjg_> yes, this +100
23:17:39 <_mjg_> i'm personally super annoyed when people claim it is fast because "it is in ram" or compatible
23:17:50 <geist> but the answer is you do what you do the right way because that's what makes you a good engineer
23:17:53 <_mjg_> i had people claiming the added stat calls to the fast path don't matter because ^^^
23:18:14 <_mjg_> yea, there is a nice little piece about this
23:18:17 <geist> you do it right because you care and thats what makes you feel good
23:18:49 <_mjg_> several years ago a programmer named john birrell ported dtrace to freebsd
23:18:56 <_mjg_> he has since passed away
23:19:22 <_mjg_> one of the obituaries he got was empahising how much attention to detail he had
23:19:41 * geist nods
23:19:52 <_mjg_> and how that in the port he accounted for stuff nobody but the most expert eye will spot
23:20:19 <_mjg_> it is a little bit cringy, but it made a great impression on the 20-year old me
23:20:33 <_mjg_> i mean the fact that it did is a little it cringy
23:20:42 <geist> yeah well, it happens
23:20:42 <_mjg_> the attitude displayed is what we should all strive for
23:21:03 <_mjg_> it is annoying when people who do that are the minority though
23:21:37 <_mjg_> i get time constraints, being a 9-5 to programmer and other stuff, but there is a line below which you should not be programming if you have any intelectual spine
23:22:34 <geist> i'd like to sya that stack overflow and whatnot have ruined it, but really no. we're (programmers) are just expected to accomplish a lot more in less time
23:23:11 <_mjg_> SO kind of does make things worse as the reputation system gives incentive to score points as opposed to provide good content
23:23:11 <geist> definitely as you go lower level, where the tools and tech are fundamentally the same 30-40 years later. the machines we compile/test on are just a lot faster so the cycle is much much quicker
23:23:47 <geist> yah i primarily mean the copy/paste mentality
23:23:57 <_mjg_> that's part of what i mean here
23:24:08 <geist> which probably has a non zero productivity boost across the board, but means even more people are doing things they dont understand
23:24:12 <_mjg_> if the incentive was to provide something reasonable, the copy-paste would be less dangerous
23:24:21 <izabera> why don't you guys retire
23:24:27 <klange> not enough money
23:24:30 <izabera> you're so old
23:24:34 <_mjg_> by the talk?
23:24:48 <_mjg_> wait till you score 10 years or more at work
23:24:52 <Drakonis[m]> itc: old coots
23:24:55 <geist> i'm not sure i can retire honestly. i'd have to really find something else to occupy my time
23:24:58 <geist> i cannot not do something
23:25:10 <_mjg_> geist: i'm going to become a Thought Leader
23:25:11 <izabera> you can play with your grandkids
23:25:27 <geist> oh ho, that's so not gonna happen
23:25:30 <_mjg_> full time bullshit caller
23:25:32 <Drakonis[m]> zircon on the clouds
23:25:38 <Drakonis[m]> or in space
23:26:20 <geist> we're mostly complaining not from a point of view that things were ever better (though i guess the SO stuff was veering that way)
23:26:31 <geist> and more of 'high level programmers ruin low level programmers gains'
23:26:39 <geist> which i'm sure goes all the way back to square one
23:27:00 <geist> in no way can i say that programming was intrinsically better 10-20-30 years ago
23:27:12 <_mjg_> it defo was not
23:27:16 <geist> it was not. it's pretty amazing. but i do marvel at the fact that low level programming hasn't really changed at all
23:27:27 <_mjg_> i wrote a lot of really fucking bad code back in the day, some of it is still in production
23:27:28 <geist> perhaps rust will be the first real actual meaningful change
23:27:36 <geist> but tiem will tell
23:27:37 <_mjg_> i'm pretty sure this is not an isolated incident
23:27:54 <Drakonis[m]> happens to everyone
23:27:58 <Drakonis[m]> see ipv4
23:27:59 <geist> yeah, i've long since learned that you have to assume everything you write will last a lot longer than you think or want
23:28:10 <Drakonis[m]> it's still in production
23:28:12 <klange> i want to retire from my full time job and do contract work and photography
23:28:20 <_mjg_> i don't blame people new to the industry for writing shit code, i do blame them if they persist
23:28:27 <_mjg_> and some just insist on doing shit wrong
23:28:36 <izabera> klange: hipster
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23:29:34 <geist> i dunno, taking pictures of stuff does not seem to be a hipster thing at all
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23:29:46 <geist> finding new an unique things to do with hemp does
23:30:32 <klange> it's only hipster when I use the Mamiya
23:30:45 <geist> or an old box camera
23:30:57 <Drakonis[m]> you don't eat hemp tacos? what a poseur
23:31:12 <_mjg_> being a hipster is now mainstream
23:31:19 <geist> i saw some thiong on the local news the other day with some hemp based building construction company
23:31:34 <geist> and predictably the entire management staff looked like a bunch of stoners
23:31:52 <_mjg_> :)
23:32:25 <Drakonis[m]> the valley is weird
23:32:50 <Drakonis[m]> how do people come up with this
23:32:59 <geist> this is actually in seattle, which has a much more robust stoner community
23:33:23 <geist> stoners are probably priced out of the valley
23:33:43 <Drakonis[m]> i guess they got valleyed...
23:34:08 <Drakonis[m]> graph joeks itc
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23:34:54 <Drakonis[m]> what's the most legacy code on bsd
23:35:00 <_mjg_> bsd itself
23:35:01 <_mjg_> 8)
23:35:10 <Drakonis[m]> so bad lachlan left
23:35:21 <geist> would be interesting to find the oldest surviving LOC
23:35:22 <_mjg_> the vfs layer is extremely antiquated
23:35:31 <Drakonis[m]> sweet zinger 8)
23:35:39 <_mjg_> geist: that i can do
23:35:53 <_mjg_> kernel only for sake of resources
23:35:53 <geist> _mjg_: you ever get an account on that old vax machine running BSD?
23:36:04 <_mjg_> no
23:36:05 <Drakonis[m]> freefall?
23:36:08 <geist> it's pretty fun, though it's slooooow
23:36:11 <_mjg_> freefall is x86
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23:36:29 <Drakonis[m]> oh
23:36:42 <geist> it's at the seattle living computer museum. you can get accounts on their mainframes and whatnot
23:36:44 <Drakonis[m]> why is there still an old vax running bsd
23:36:51 <_mjg_> why not
23:36:53 <geist> one of the smaller ones is a vax730 with BSD reno i think
23:36:53 <Drakonis[m]> oh
23:36:56 <Drakonis[m]> neat
23:36:59 <_mjg_> there are pdp11s somewhere afair as well
23:37:05 <geist> there's a pdp-11/70 running unixv7 too
23:37:16 <geist> which is surprisingly almost faster than the vax
23:37:21 <_mjg_> personally i was looking in another direction
23:37:32 <_mjg_> one dude has an e10k and was looking to start giving accounts
23:37:33 <geist> vax730 was a sloooow machine though. bitsliced super cheap version
23:37:39 <_mjg_> looks like nothing came out of that though
23:37:51 --- join: KernelBloomer (~SASLExter@gateway/tor-sasl/kernelbloomer) joined #osdev
23:37:55 <geist> hmm, what's an e10k?
23:38:03 <_mjg_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSprsQTsy7c
23:38:04 <bslsk05> 'Sun Enterprise 10000' by jpkiwigeek (00:19:26)
23:38:07 <geist> oh oh
23:38:27 <geist> a fairly faster but still similar aged machine you can get an account on is an AT&T 3b2 with some sort of BSD on it
23:38:41 <_mjg_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jnWCYIvMck
23:38:41 <bslsk05> 'Sun E10000 - Power on and lots of noise' by jpkiwigeek (00:21:22)
23:38:55 <geist> ah, no it's unix system V R.3
23:39:11 <_mjg_> not going below 5
23:39:14 <geist> it's interesting to use a unix vs bsd machine at the same time. they clearly were fairly different, pre-semi unification
23:39:28 <Drakonis[m]> https://ban.ai/multics/
23:39:29 <bslsk05> ban.ai: Multics
23:39:33 <_mjg_> so i know a guy who knows a guy
23:39:39 <Drakonis[m]> for y'all nostalgic boyes
23:39:42 <_mjg_> who saw sources of irix, aix and other crappers
23:39:47 <geist> they dont have a multics box, but they have a few TOPS-10 and TOPS-20
23:40:03 <Drakonis[m]> some guy is running a multics hooked to the net
23:40:04 --- quit: spare (Client Quit)
23:40:08 <Drakonis[m]> you can access it through that
23:40:28 <geist> yah
23:40:55 <geist> at&t 3b2 is a fairly neat little box too. it's an entire line of 32bit machines that no one has ever heard of
23:41:16 <_mjg_> i die inside a little bit when people power on sparcstations and the like they boot linux
23:41:24 <_mjg_> like why are you even touching this hardware
23:41:28 <_mjg_> at this point 8)
23:41:47 <geist> heh for lulz the last time i fired up my sparcstation 20 i put netbsd 7 on it
23:41:52 <Drakonis[m]> let it die running sunos or solaris
23:42:03 <_mjg_> geist: i can almost forgive for a bsd
23:42:04 <_mjg_> 8)
23:42:08 <geist> which is clearly a netbsd a bit too far. you feel the relative heavyweight of modern compilers or whatnot
23:42:08 <_mjg_> Drakonis[m]: precisely
23:42:28 <geist> where you really feel it are all the crypto that we do nowadays. ssh, https to fetch stuff
23:42:34 <geist> also man pages being highly compressed, etc
23:42:45 <_mjg_> single-threaded things got really slower
23:42:55 <geist> thankfully netbsd doesn't do this, but any distro that uses python for their scripts totally suck on machines more than 10 years old
23:42:58 <_mjg_> i don't even mean crypto and the like
23:43:16 <Drakonis[m]> see fedora derivatives
23:43:28 <geist> or even debians and apt-get
23:43:40 <geist> i fiddled with gentoo on an old dual p3 500 the other day, which i used to run gentoo on
23:43:47 <Drakonis[m]> apt is in C
23:43:47 <geist> but really it wasn't the compiling of everything that was a drag
23:43:47 <_mjg_> ah, gentoo
23:43:54 <_mjg_> fun times
23:43:56 <geist> it was that emerge literally takes like a minute to do anything
23:43:58 <Drakonis[m]> gentoo though? yikes
23:44:14 <_mjg_> well if taking an old hardware, you really need an os from the relevant era
23:44:24 <geist> since emerge loads a fairly gigantic DB in pythoni and parses the crap out of it to figure anything out
23:44:27 <_mjg_> gentoo probably is a non-starter as all the distfiles i suspect are gone
23:44:42 <geist> yah for old arches, it's only really netbsd anymore
23:44:49 <Drakonis[m]> the software of the era is gone
23:44:51 <geist> for modern stuff
23:45:11 <_mjg_> why would you put anything new there anyway though, apart from curiosity how it performs
23:45:26 <_mjg_> if running an old hardware, get the retro feel all the way
23:45:28 <geist> well why would you put something old on it?
23:45:30 <_mjg_> winamp <3
23:45:46 <geist> main trouble is you can't interact with newer stuff much with ancient hardware
23:46:00 <_mjg_> you can telnet or ssh out no problem
23:46:01 <geist> so i got slackware on my old 386. fantastic, but it can't really talk to anything new
23:46:02 <Drakonis[m]> reactos anyone, no relation to react js
23:46:14 <geist> half the internet is https now anyway
23:46:30 <_mjg_> oh you mean with x11
23:46:32 <geist> old links and whatnot can't handle new connections
23:46:41 <geist> and yeah with x11
23:46:42 <jjuran> Use a chaperone proxy host.
23:46:44 <klange> the forward march of progress
23:46:46 <Belxjander> hrmmm
23:46:47 <_mjg_> ye, that's different
23:47:01 <geist> but sure, for nostalgia purposes you put something period on it
23:47:12 <Belxjander> using Gentoo on this laptop... still can't boot from the internal HDD but that hasn't stopped me from getting it usable upto an X desktop :)
23:47:16 <geist> then for lulz you try to put modern on it to do something modern on an old machine, to bask in the slow
23:47:25 <_mjg_> now i'm curous what's the oldest still completely usable piece of hardware today
23:47:33 <_mjg_> i'm on a core 2 duo here, it is mostly fine for me
23:47:47 <geist> well, thereis the whole 'completely usable' part
23:47:49 <_mjg_> but i basically watch shit on youtube and ssh out
23:47:56 <radens> that was my first computer, a core 2 duo
23:47:58 <_mjg_> so perhaps not the most demanding use case
23:47:58 <Drakonis[m]> :thinking:pads
23:48:04 <_mjg_> Drakonis[m]: w500!
23:48:19 <geist> i have a P4 here with a 64MB nvidia card in it
23:48:30 <geist> it's 32bit only, but it should be able to run a decent gui on it relatively slowly
23:48:30 <_mjg_> can it play youtube videos?
23:48:44 <Drakonis[m]> probably not lol
23:48:48 <_mjg_> 720p is probably out
23:48:49 <radens> h264 software decoding?
23:48:51 <_mjg_> but the lower variants
23:48:52 <geist> dont see why not, though chrome is no longer updated for i386, so it'd have to be with firefox or whatnot
23:48:53 <_mjg_> why not
23:48:59 <Drakonis[m]> decompression is poor
23:49:15 <Drakonis[m]> h264 didn't show until 2007
23:49:25 <_mjg_> there are people doing benchmarks of old hardware
23:49:29 <_mjg_> usability tests as well
23:49:46 <Drakonis[m]> hw decompression
23:49:49 <_mjg_> check out this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXLLmu812QY
23:49:49 <Belxjander> good god... are you *really* going to insist on a GUI that is *usable* on 32bit ???
23:49:50 <bslsk05> 'Using the Atari ST as a main pc in 2016' by Oldtech81 (00:07:56)
23:50:20 <geist> why not? i'm running a gui right here on this atom machine
23:50:21 <Drakonis[m]> wild
23:50:32 <geist> which though it's circa 2008, it's probably slower than the core2 that _mjg_ is on by a lot
23:50:39 <geist> it was low end in 2008
23:50:45 <Belxjander> what clock speed and how many cores ?
23:50:48 <geist> really i thin it's memory that'll do it more than anything else
23:50:53 <geist> 1.6Ghz 2 cores, atom
23:51:00 <klange> I've never had any trouble running xfce on my 32-bit atom boxen
23:51:06 <Belxjander> ha!, I have a slower machine upstairs...
23:51:29 <geist> sure, i have the p3 500, but it only has 640MB, so it starts to be out of memory the instant you run any heavier X
23:51:36 <Belxjander> 667MHz Embedded PowerPC with 1GB of memory and it is reasonably usable ... hell it *can* replay 720p video... barely :P
23:51:38 <_mjg_> :)
23:51:40 <geist> you need a lightweight distro
23:51:50 <_mjg_> man, 640MB of ram
23:51:53 <Drakonis[m]> but does it run doom?
23:52:07 <geist> _mjg_: that was seriously upgraded actually. i'm fairly certain it only had 128 or 256 when i first got it
23:52:15 <geist> and it was a high end machine. a SMP box in 1999? wow!
23:52:16 <_mjg_> geist: ye, i had 256 in p3 700
23:52:24 <Belxjander> Drakonis[m]: actually... I think I have Quake 1 installed on it... and that actually runs dammed sweet
23:52:41 <geist> i forget exactly what combination of sticks i have in it that arrive at 640MB
23:52:42 <Drakonis[m]> always good
23:52:42 <_mjg_> what res?
23:52:55 <Drakonis[m]> let's quake some day
23:53:17 <_mjg_> quek is a bad game
23:53:23 <Belxjander> _mjg_ the reason my machine upstairs is slow most of the time is that I have it in 1920x1080 for display size but only 16bit depth
23:53:24 <geist> really as far as low end machines that's questionable to run a ui on: raspberry pi
23:53:34 <geist> you can run a gui on it... it's pretty bad though
23:53:36 <Drakonis[m]> you a doom guy?
23:53:41 <_mjg_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Xve3VGGMo
23:53:42 <bslsk05> 'Quake :: SPEED RUN (0:17:50) [PC] Live by Coolkid #AGDQ 2014' by SpeedDemosArchiveSDA (00:26:19)
23:53:53 <_mjg_> Drakonis[m]: used to play quake 3 some-competitively in high school
23:54:28 <geist> and of course i have windows 3.11 on this 386 right here. and it works
23:54:44 <Drakonis[m]> quake has the best levels tho
23:54:47 <_mjg_> on one hand gave me some appretiation for hihg-level gaming, on another perhaps not the best time invesetment
23:54:50 <Belxjander> geist: now THAT is the only GUI I see as relevant for a "Windows" system on x86 or compatible...
23:55:13 <Drakonis[m]> i don't do comp
23:55:31 <Belxjander> geist: I actually need to sort out a Win3.x setup for the container system I have partially written up
23:55:40 <Drakonis[m]> i do however appreciate the level of quality that doom and quake mods have
23:55:44 <Belxjander> just for testing MZ-NE executable loading and runtime
23:56:02 <Drakonis[m]> see arcane dimensions for quake
23:56:09 <klange> quake or bust https://i.imgur.com/swAnLvF.png
23:56:11 <_mjg_> i was never fond of quake 1 single player
23:56:17 <_mjg_> quake 2 was sdecent
23:56:27 <Belxjander> Drakonis[m]: I'm working on something Doom/Quake "ish" at the moment... but that is only in regards to Default Display setup
23:57:06 <Belxjander> _mjg_ I only ever played single player... never had a machine where multiplayer wasn't pure hell of jumpy shit where everyone was not where they were drawn
23:57:15 <Drakonis[m]> this quakespasm or vanilla
23:57:42 <geist> oh man i remember playing the heck out of doom via DWANGO
23:57:49 <geist> which was based out of Houston, so it was local for me
23:58:28 <Drakonis[m]> nostalgia sundays itc
23:58:36 <_mjg_> interesting nobody brought up unreal
23:58:53 <_mjg_> for me there is something off about that game series
23:58:54 <Drakonis[m]> unreal is really really good
23:59:02 * _mjg_ is defo an ID person
23:59:10 <geist> shit man tribes 2 or GTFO
23:59:10 <_mjg_> started with commander keen!
23:59:29 <Drakonis[m]> you hear about midair
23:59:43 <Drakonis[m]> seems like actual tribes devs doing it
23:59:59 --- log: ended osdev/18.05.19