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Tuesday, 8 May 2018

00:00:00 --- log: started osdev/18.05.08
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01:36:29 <klange> https://youtu.be/Mrcs9fa-EX0 got some better native font support in my terminal
01:36:30 <bslsk05> ​'ToaruOS-NIH SDF fonts in terminal' by K Lange (00:01:59)
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01:50:01 <izabera> tbh your fonts look like shit for 90% of the video
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02:10:59 <geist> i dunno they render okay
02:11:12 <geist> whether or not the spacing or whatnot is to your liking is differetn
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02:41:52 <doug16k> gamma affects the alpha? I wouldn't have expected that
02:42:17 <doug16k> seems to anyway
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02:44:13 <klange> terminology conflict, it's not *that* gamma
02:44:18 <doug16k> oh
02:45:06 <klange> it's a term in the calculation for antialiasing based on the distance values
02:45:25 <klange> gamma of 0 would mean no leeway, either on or off, so you basically get a shitty bitmap rendering
02:45:35 <klange> high gamma means lots of leeway, so you basically get a really blurry thing
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02:46:23 <klange> because it's blurry, it appears darker as there's more transparency to the majority of pixels
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02:49:23 <doug16k> neat
02:51:06 <izabera> we need namespaces irl
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03:00:59 <aalm> nah, static is good enough to reduce the pollution
03:02:11 <DusXMT> Or even better yet, have it be a feature of a language to make things static/private by default, like is done in eg. at&t x86 assembly :3
03:02:30 <klange> i'm not sure how you make something static in english ;)
03:03:46 <aalm> what
03:03:57 <klange> < izabera> we need namespaces *irl*
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03:04:11 <aalm> "we need namespaces InRealLanguage(== C)"
03:04:22 <aalm> :P
03:05:40 <klange> I'm 100% certain izabera was making a joke about how the term "gamma" in the context of sign distance fields is not the same as the term gamma in graphics, where it refers to nonlinear brightness
03:05:58 <aalm> sure
03:06:22 <DusXMT> Our school's physics department would really benefit from such namespaces
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03:09:04 <aalm> wish we had proper voicespaces
03:09:19 <aalm> where even the stupid understand things w/certain tone xD
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03:19:37 <klange> this monospace font looks a bit better at a slightly smaller size, less oddities in stroke widths...
03:19:44 <klange> fewer*
03:21:22 <klange> still not as nice as if I were using truetype with hinting information... maybe one day...
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05:39:55 <mawk> that thing of IRL namespaces has been developed by Korzybski, izabera
05:40:05 <mawk> on its works on General Semantics
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06:21:16 <Jari--> hi !
06:25:13 <klys> hi
06:25:21 <bcos_> !(hi)
06:25:56 <bcos_> ..you can't have a unary operator at the end of a statement
06:26:01 <klys> !MAXINT
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08:05:46 <blueglass> !!hi
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08:13:22 <bauen1> izabera: I've read part of the musl code and its a lot cleaner than some of the GNU bullshit
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08:15:27 <glauxosdever> bauen1: And consider that most of glibc was commited by Drepper
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08:16:24 <bauen1> true
08:17:17 <glauxosdever> BTW, what is you r opinion on him?
08:18:25 <bauen1> from the little I know about him, he's an asshole
08:19:11 <izabera> but did you read the bits i told you to read
08:19:22 <glauxosdever> https://www.sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3266 <- THis is "fun"
08:19:41 <jjuran> There’s an elegant implementation of strerror() that returns pointers into a static array of strings, but IIRC Drepper opted for one that allocates memory.
08:19:55 <jjuran> And refused to reconider.
08:19:59 <jjuran> *reconsider
08:20:07 <bauen1> this kinda reminds me of systemd
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08:20:36 <glauxosdever> jjuran: That's plain stupid
08:21:30 <izabera> speaking of elegant implementations of strerror, why don't you look at the one in musl
08:21:45 <glauxosdever> https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=5070
08:21:45 <izabera> i'm sure it's exactly the elegant code you'd expect
08:21:49 <bauen1> don't make me start looking for another libc implementation because of code quality -.-
08:21:50 <jjuran> https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1890
08:22:39 <izabera> i'm just questioning your claims
08:22:52 <glauxosdever> jjuran: WTF
08:24:06 <bauen1> > Dammit, don't reopen bugs, especially if you are clueless.
08:24:27 <glauxosdever> Really, how can one be that stupid. I wonder. Why did they allow him to use computers, let alone write code?
08:24:29 <bauen1> so he's worse than the dev of systemd ?
08:25:58 <_mjg_> stop reopening the bug
08:26:05 <glauxosdever> At least .theo thinks about security and quality (or so is my opinion about him). But Drepper...
08:26:18 <bauen1> well
08:26:37 <bauen1> let me find the bug that was a huge security flaw and just said "fuck you"
08:26:42 <klys> ulrich drepper, is that a famous person
08:27:09 <glauxosdever> bauen1: .theo?
08:27:24 <glauxosdever> klys: Unfortunately, yes.
08:28:29 <bauen1> oh I thought you meant the systemd dev
08:28:38 <bauen1> lennart poettering was his name
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08:29:01 <glauxosdever> Probably couldn't had been a poet either..
08:29:34 <glauxosdever> (From "poettering" => "poet")
08:29:45 <bauen1> https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/6237
08:29:48 <_mjg_> glauxosdever: theo?
08:29:51 <bslsk05> ​github.com: systemd can't handle the process previlege that belongs to user name startswith number, such as 0day · Issue #6237 · systemd/systemd · GitHub
08:30:24 <rain1> step 1: close as not a bug to piss everybody off
08:30:27 <rain1> step 2: fix the bug
08:30:30 <bauen1> It's not a bad security issue really, but closing it as 'not-a-bug' is the worst possible way to deal with it
08:30:34 <rain1> this is a repeating pattern with that guy
08:30:42 <rain1> he does it on purpose
08:31:30 <glauxosdever> Ugh
08:31:43 <glauxosdever> Now I get what almost everyone criticises systemd
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08:31:44 <DusXMT> But to be fair, systemd is no longer developed by a single person, and it does even have rigorous testing; after all, it's at the core of Red Hat's premium product
08:32:16 <glauxosdever> Coincidence, Drepper also came from Red Hat
08:32:21 <bauen1> well, I get a letter for every other systemd update with serverity=medium or high because of some random security issue
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08:34:03 <lkurusa> Red Hat is an awesome company
08:34:05 <lkurusa> (disclaimer: I also come from RH)
08:35:32 <drakonis> bauen1, its really not a huge bug you linked there
08:35:53 <drakonis> you already need root to add services
08:36:23 <glauxosdever> Ok, Red Hat may be awesome. But the two greatest a**holes of open source come from there (Drepper and Poettering)
08:36:55 <DusXMT> I used to actually be on the systemd boycott bandwagon, but then I actually decided to learn more about it... and I think it's actually pretty neat; I mean, why should start-up definitions need to be turing complete scripts that need to be executed by a slow shell interpreter, potentially holding many hard-to-notice bugs, when instead you have the option of fixing the bug in one place?
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08:37:34 <glauxosdever> I think I'm using systemd currently
08:37:40 <drakonis> systemd is pretty cool
08:38:35 <blueglass> DusXMT: yeah, exactly
08:39:10 <blueglass> at first I hated it but now that I've written a few systemd service files, it's so much easier
08:39:19 <glauxosdever> I don't really have an opinion on systemd though. I've never looked into it or init systems in general
08:39:27 <blueglass> there are other things to hate about it but it's getting better
08:41:52 <glauxosdever> Do you know of more Drepper cases?
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08:43:20 <lkurusa> glibc dictatorship was quite a big case
08:43:22 <glauxosdever> https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10134 lol
08:43:30 <lkurusa> which seems to be also relevant today with RMS' email to list
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08:44:04 <lkurusa> systemd is a long overdue project for Linux imho, execution and community management have quite a few things to be wished for imho
08:44:11 <lkurusa> but overall I like the project
08:44:45 <lkurusa> eh, that was one too many "imho"s
08:44:48 * lkurusa needs to wake up :-)
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08:51:19 <bauen1> systemd as init is great, but I don't like the feature creep and forcing dependencies (logind handles laptop lid events)
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08:53:48 <rain1> i think that the old script based init systems are terrible
08:53:52 <rain1> but i also think systemd sucks
08:54:08 <rain1> i have been looking for a good init system
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08:56:25 <bauen1> I think runit looks intresting, but iirc it has 3 processes per service or something like that
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08:57:25 <rain1> yeah and a similar one I was interested in s6 but i don't totally understand how it works, and its not finished
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09:01:12 <bauen1> also there is sinit, which is like 30 LOC, it the most simple init possible, you need another service manager like runit to use it properly
09:01:16 <bauen1> *it's
09:01:37 <bauen1> on the one hand it is kinda useless, but it shouldn't ever crash
09:02:22 <pounce> I always forget whether 0 is true or false, am I a bad C programmer?
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09:02:48 <drakonis> bauen1, ah yes
09:02:50 <drakonis> feature creep
09:02:54 <rain1> yes
09:02:56 <drakonis> that's funny
09:03:06 * bcos_ always does things like "if(x == 0)" so there's no need to remember
09:03:14 <rain1> 0 is false
09:03:48 <pounce> (I always have to go through the process: ok, (!NULL) == true, NULL == (*void) 0 ==> 0 == false)
09:04:14 <pounce> yeah but now I'm going through QEMU code so I have to just know it QwQ
09:04:55 <DusXMT> in shell, 0 is true :)
09:05:05 <DusXMT> But in C, 0 is false, and anything else is true
09:05:13 <rain1> just remember this: 0 is false
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09:06:18 <DusXMT> Also, when comparing booleans, even if they're bool, it's better to use xor (not equals), since there's no guarrantee that the values they hold, even if they both represent true, are the same
09:06:47 <drakonis> i don't get it
09:06:52 <drakonis> why is shell false 1
09:07:02 <DusXMT> because 0 means success
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09:07:12 <drakonis> that's baffling?
09:07:37 <DusXMT> So UNIX shell's if statement operates with 0 as true and non-0 as false
09:07:56 <bcos_> I good language wouldn't allow booleans and integers to be mixed (would generate "type mismatch error" instead)
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09:08:50 <DusXMT> Whoops, I just now realized, xor is bitwise...
09:08:58 <DusXMT> in C, the operator
09:09:04 <pounce> >it's better to use XOR < wat
09:09:13 <DusXMT> Nothing, my idiocity :)
09:09:43 <pounce> I messed up on a programming assignment this semester because I XOR'd booleans XwX
09:09:57 <bcos_> For C, I think you're looking for "!!"
09:10:08 <klys> bit test and complement
09:10:32 <pounce> Yeah I like Rust because it doesn't have any of this
09:11:12 <pounce> also `bool as u64` or something will always return 1 or 0, never anything else.
09:11:50 <klys> people "liking" rust is only helpful if rust is helpful at resolving the problem
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09:23:58 <lachlan_s> how about `hi!()
09:26:17 <DusXMT> macro_rules!
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09:26:58 <DusXMT> (that always makes me smile in Rust :3)
09:30:29 <lachlan_s> macros rule!
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09:43:00 <Ameisen> do note that !! is not an operator (some people get confused)
09:43:02 <Ameisen> it's two operators.
09:43:58 <Ameisen> logical not, then logical negation, then another logical negation
09:44:16 <Ameisen> which basically just transforms your variable into an equivalent boolean
09:44:45 <Ameisen> same with the '-->' operator
09:44:54 <Ameisen> which is always weird to see
09:45:12 <Ameisen> though the starship operator is proposed for C++
09:45:29 <Ameisen> IIRC it's in the C++20 draft
09:46:56 <pounce> ugh don't get me started on Rust macros
09:47:30 <pounce> I mean, I like them. But I spent so long trying to deal with them in this serial code for nothing because they can't be put in place of idents
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09:48:41 <Ameisen> having <-> in C++ will be weird
09:48:41 <pounce> Ameisen: what's -->? I've never seen that before
09:48:48 <Ameisen> --> = 'go to operator'
09:48:50 <Ameisen> really it's -- and >
09:48:58 <Ameisen> while (a --> 10) ...
09:49:12 <bcos_> ?"
09:49:16 <Ameisen> if a is 20, it will loop until and including a being 10
09:49:24 <Ameisen> while (a --> 0) ...
09:49:35 <Ameisen> will loop until a is zero, and also execute the loop for a being 0
09:49:46 <Ameisen> but it's just while (a-- > 0)
09:49:53 <Ameisen> a lot of people write it as though it were its own operator
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09:50:11 <Ameisen> its one of those pseudo-operators like !!
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09:51:07 <bcos_> So that's why "myClass>myMethod()" works fine too??
09:51:18 <bcos_> ..just without decrementing the pointer/reference?
09:51:37 <pounce> ah ok
09:51:42 <pounce> I thought it was something like ->
09:53:05 <Ameisen> hmm?
09:53:20 <Ameisen> myClass>myMethod() doens't do anything unless myClass is a variable
09:53:24 <Ameisen> -> is its own operator
09:53:33 <Ameisen> --> however is literally just -- and > mashed together
09:53:41 <Ameisen> the parser resolves '--' first
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09:54:15 <pounce> is that in the C spec?
09:54:22 <Ameisen> the parser resolving it first
09:54:22 <Ameisen> ?
09:54:26 <Ameisen> yes
09:54:28 <pounce> ah ok
09:54:34 <Ameisen> its part of the definition of operators/tokens
09:54:38 <Ameisen> '-->'?
09:54:39 <Ameisen> no
09:54:51 <Ameisen> -- and > are separate operators, people just tend to mas them together
09:54:59 <Ameisen> same with '!!'
09:55:01 <pounce> using that seems like a good thing to use in the IOCCC (the order that operators are resolved)
09:55:03 <Ameisen> which is just ! and !
09:55:13 <Ameisen> parsing of operators is greedy
09:55:34 <bauen1> oh god I feel dumb, using 0xFFFF instead of 0xFFF to get the part of a pointer that is inside a page -.-
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09:56:03 <pounce> bauen1: the only way to do paging is with octal numbers >.>
09:56:32 <Ameisen> binary numbers
09:56:37 <Ameisen> :D
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09:56:46 <Ameisen> I think I've only used binary literals in C++ a few times
09:56:47 <bauen1> a kernel bug is the last thing you think about when everything breaks while porting a new libc
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09:57:30 <pounce> 0x7777
09:58:18 <bcos_> 07777?
09:58:20 <Ameisen> base-1 literals only
09:58:36 <pounce> 0oextention_P4_P3_P2_P1_page_offset (octal ftw)
09:58:36 <bcos_> Maybe "(PAGE_SIZE - 1)"
09:58:44 <Ameisen> 0x1000 is fun to write in base-1
09:58:46 <pounce> bcos_: yes -_-
09:58:51 <Ameisen> 4096 characters :|
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11:07:25 <Ameisen> interesting
11:07:31 <Ameisen> if I build avr-libc with -flto, ld crashes.
11:09:01 <geist> you're fixed on this particular problem longer than you usually are
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11:32:47 <doug16k> \o/ got a Ryzen 7 2700x today. 3.7GHz base, 4.35GHz turbo. the turbo is much more aggressive in 2nd gen. so far so good :D
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11:36:44 <Ameisen> I'm still running a skylake x
11:36:51 <Ameisen> which keeps getting slower with the bugs being ofund
11:36:53 <Ameisen> :(
11:37:10 <rain1> hey are ane yof you making your of for something differet than intel x86?
11:37:14 <rain1> just wondering
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11:38:12 <DusXMT> I plan on having my OS run on PowerPC :) But only plan, it's moving along slowly (but steadily!) since I only have so much free time
11:38:57 <CRoemheld> Hi there!
11:39:38 <TauNeutrin0> Hello!
11:39:47 <DusXMT> hi there :)
11:40:32 <CRoemheld> It's my first time in the IRC here, and just as I was wondering if asking a question qould be appropiate instead of posting in the forum because of a misunderstanding, I'm going to ask my small question here
11:41:16 <CRoemheld> In the Bare Bones "Creating a x64 Kernel" in section "Loading" the following is written:
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11:41:20 <DusXMT> Of course :) Just be prepared to wait for a while, that's one thing people new to IRC don't often realize and leave before people have a chance to reply
11:41:27 <CRoemheld> "Before you can actually use your kernel, you need to deal with the hard job of loading it. Here are your three options: "
11:42:44 <CRoemheld> So does that mean that just by compiling the kernel from the 32bit Bare Bones article with a cross compiler (x86_64-elf-gcc) is not enough to just check if the compiling does not work?
11:43:34 <CRoemheld> Because I can compile the kernel without any errors, however when running the newly created iso with qemu or bochs, it says the multiboot header wasn't found
11:44:56 <CRoemheld> I also checked the thread in the forum with the exact same problem
11:45:33 <DusXMT> It's actually mentioned right here, https://wiki.osdev.org/Bare_Bones#Building_a_Cross-Compiler
11:45:35 <bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: Bare Bones - OSDev Wiki
11:45:36 <DusXMT> "You will not be able to correctly complete this tutorial with a x86_64-elf cross-compiler, as GRUB is only able to load 32-bit multiboot kernels. If this is your first operating system project, you should do a 32-bit kernel first. If you use a x86_64 compiler instead and somehow bypass the later sanity check, you will end up with a kernel that GRUB doesn't know how to boot."
11:46:41 <CRoemheld> @DusXMT: meaning the article is covering this issue with the following sections "Write your own bootloader" etc?
11:46:43 <chrisf> or you give the whole legacy nightmare a swift kick and do 64bit efi.
11:47:41 <DusXMT> CRoemheld: Indeed
11:47:49 <DusXMT> Personally, I'd go with the 32-bit bootstrap code
11:48:27 <CRoemheld> @DusXMT: alright that's what I wanted to know, because I had trouble understanding where to look for the next step
11:49:32 <CRoemheld> @DusXMT: Yes, the 32 bit bootstrap approach? How did you pick between the multiple options?
11:49:54 <Ameisen> actually curious why libc being LTOd causes ld to crap out
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11:50:25 <CRoemheld> @DusXMT: was it more a question of convenience or did you have a set plan for your own os?
11:50:36 <DusXMT> It just seems the most reasonable to me, I'd like to use an existing bootloader since grub is modular and supports many filesystems and you can easily add in support for your own, if you're bold enough to write your own filesystem, and I don't use Visual Studio
11:51:07 <DusXMT> *design your own filesystem
11:51:32 <CRoemheld> Sounds reasonable, indeed
11:52:20 <CRoemheld> Alright, thanks a lot for your quick answer, I'm going to continue reading the articles then :)
11:52:29 <CRoemheld> Maybe see you all again soon ;)
11:52:38 <glauxosdever> If you want and you have time, a custom bootloader can give you more flexibility
11:52:39 <DusXMT> Good luck! :)
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11:53:00 <glauxosdever> There are some things the OS may need from BIOS/UEFI and the bootloader will not give them
11:53:05 <glauxosdever> Erm
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11:54:30 <lachlan_s> Would you guys recommend doing computer science or computer engineering?
11:54:41 <SGautam> obviously?
11:55:02 <DusXMT> I'd go with computer engineering
11:55:16 <SGautam> although i'm currently doing EE
11:55:44 <z0ttel> 64bit efi sufficiently supported on everyday commodity hardware?
11:55:54 * DusXMT is an electrician as well :)
11:56:11 <glauxosdever> I went to Digital Systems. Seems however they have a lot in common with CS
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12:00:29 <Ameisen> invalid register for .seh_savexmm
12:00:29 <Ameisen> hrmm
12:01:10 <lachlan_s> They're both pretty similar at the school I'm going to
12:01:17 <lachlan_s> comp eng has more physics
12:02:26 <glauxosdever> In fact, I'd prefer something that is CS, but with more practical programming and possibly FPGAs
12:02:37 <TauNeutrin0> Don't forget there's no right answer. Different people will naturally prefer different things.
12:02:39 <DusXMT> It really depends on your personality I guess, I'd choose comp eng over comp sci any day, since I like actually doing things, instead of just theorising and analyzing algorithms
12:03:00 <lachlan_s> Honestly, I'd rather just not go to university, but it'd be a bad career plan
12:03:25 <DusXMT> Don't get me wrong, algorithm analysis is important, but... I kinda feel it's up to the computer scientists to do :)
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12:06:08 <glauxosdever> I'd like there wouldn't be the disconnect between software designers and programmers: group A settles on a design, then they expect group B to implement it. I'd prefer there was one group that does both
12:07:06 <SGautam> if that happened then we'd still using command lines for every day tasks
12:07:15 <lachlan_s> How much ee was there in your comp eng degree?
12:07:34 <glauxosdever> SGautam: ?
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12:08:02 <SGautam> glauxosdever, i'm going to think the divide is there because software designers can think more along the lines of the end user
12:08:26 <SGautam> it's like jobs vs wozniak, if i have to give a shitty example
12:08:47 <brynet> https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2018-8897
12:08:48 <bslsk05> ​cve.mitre.org: CVE - CVE-2018-8897
12:08:51 <brynet> interesting one
12:09:00 <SGautam> to you and me, doing "sudo apt-get" or "sudo pacman -S" is fine
12:09:24 * DusXMT prefers it without the sudo
12:09:27 <glauxosdever> Ok, software designers can think about the end users. Programmers can't? If not, can't they learn?
12:10:05 * glauxosdever tries to exploit a program DusXMT is using, then he will delete every file on the drive
12:10:53 <glauxosdever> DusXMT: That's what you get for running as root
12:10:59 <glauxosdever> *running everything
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12:11:07 <DusXMT> glauxosdever: I don't run everything as root :)
12:11:15 <DusXMT> But I do have a root user with a root password configured
12:11:21 <DusXMT> separate from my regular user
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12:11:37 <glauxosdever> "without the sudo" doesn't mean it's already root?
12:11:43 <DusXMT> su -
12:11:49 <DusXMT> then log in
12:12:00 <SGautam> ehh
12:12:16 <DusXMT> glauxosdever: If you type the password into sudo, it's cached, so you can run programs as root like that too
12:13:05 <glauxosdever> Right. There has to be a way to turn off that feature, right?
12:13:38 <geist> i looked into that one day, it's funny how that works. it's some stamp file that gets tossed in /var/run or whatnot
12:13:58 <geist> unless time moves on the system, i think sudo tests the time stamp on the file for when you last authed
12:14:16 <DusXMT> I just don't see the point of sudo really. Sure, one might say that it's more convenient, but then again root may have a different PATH and some directory trees may not be visible at all to the regular user, so they'd have to guess paths for the sudo command
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12:14:59 <geist> but the other way around is frequently the case
12:15:12 <geist> ie, root may not have /usr/local/bin in their path
12:15:53 <DusXMT> well, it's up to the sysadmin to decide how their system will be configured
12:16:12 <DusXMT> setting up .profile is one of the first things to do upon installation
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12:23:19 <TauNeutrin0> Well, here goes! Just embarking on my first OS project.
12:23:48 <DusXMT> :)
12:24:58 <TauNeutrin0> I chose to do it as a university project, so I have about a year.
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12:25:19 <geist> grats
12:25:59 <DusXMT> Oh, good luck then! :)
12:26:19 <TauNeutrin0> Should be fun. I don't really know how long it's going to take though. The reccomended time for a project is 300 hours.
12:27:03 <TauNeutrin0> I'm starting early though because I'm excited to do it. Maybe it'll take longer.
12:29:06 <DusXMT> It can take waaay, waaay longer :) But don't let that discourage you
12:30:15 <doug16k> DusXMT, `sudo -K` forgets the cached credentials (on my distro anyway)
12:30:42 <doug16k> i.e., after sudo -K, the next sudo will prompt again
12:30:56 <DusXMT> doug16k: But what if you want to do more than just a single command as root? Having to constantly prepend sudo before every command gets really tedious
12:31:10 <doug16k> you mean interactively?
12:31:15 <DusXMT> Indeed
12:31:22 <doug16k> I use: sudo -Hi
12:31:32 <SGautam> Hi
12:31:38 * DusXMT will just stick to su -
12:31:38 <geist> Hi!
12:31:40 <doug16k> H means set $HOME to root's home, i means interactive
12:32:06 <doug16k> it will put you in a root prompt if you are a sudoer, even if root doesn't have a password
12:32:41 <DusXMT> but the question is, is that desirable? I think it's better if root has a different password from the regular user
12:33:05 <DusXMT> It's an extra layer of security in case an attacker manages to figure out the user's password
12:33:09 <doug16k> how can you su - if you aren't sudoing? you have a root password?
12:33:24 <DusXMT> doug16k: of course :)
12:33:33 <doug16k> I think it's better if it is impossible to logon as root
12:33:38 <doug16k> sudoers only
12:33:51 <DusXMT> How is that any better though?
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12:34:12 <DusXMT> I think it's worse, since then the user is effectively root all the time, since you only need to know the user's password
12:34:13 <doug16k> you can't trivially attack the username root. you need a username and attack just that
12:34:49 <DusXMT> doug16k: then disable root login in ssh, and set it up to only accept public key authentication :)
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12:35:49 <doug16k> you don't think it is stronger for EVERY possible password to be wrong when logging on as root?
12:36:16 <DusXMT> doug16k: If someone has physical access to your computer, you're already screwed
12:36:31 <DusXMT> Unless you have full-disk encryption
12:36:51 <doug16k> by that logic "password" is an acceptable root password
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12:37:49 <DusXMT> doug16k: If your computer isn't connected to the network, that is
12:40:07 <doug16k> geist, lol
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12:41:29 <absurdistani> this really depends upon what attack surface you have and where/how you think the most likely attack is
12:41:49 <absurdistani> so like... do you expect your attacker to be random from someone across the internet?
12:41:49 <DusXMT> ^--
12:42:04 <absurdistani> forcing the guess of the username and password is better than guessing at root
12:42:10 <absurdistani> where the username of root is known
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12:42:24 <absurdistani> however, if you have disabled a remote login as root
12:42:36 <absurdistani> and you are additionally requiring keys
12:42:44 <absurdistani> you are now better off disallowing sudo
12:42:51 <absurdistani> and forcing "su - root"
12:42:55 <absurdistani> with a root password
12:43:19 <absurdistani> if you are behind some kind of hardware firewall, and the user login must already be on the other side of that firewall
12:43:34 <absurdistani> such a provision would be good practice of "defense in depth"
12:43:41 <absurdistani> but you could then enable sudo
12:43:47 <absurdistani> or even root login with a key
12:43:55 <absurdistani> and not increase the attack surface too badly
12:44:03 <doug16k> dude I read your mind. "defense in depth" came to mind 3 seconds before you typed it
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12:45:17 <absurdistani> doug16k paranoid minds think alike?
12:45:55 <DusXMT> absurdistani: If you watch the authlog of any server, you'll know that you can never bee too paranoid :)
12:46:21 <DusXMT> Or read the bug reports in server software
12:47:01 <absurdistani> yeah this is true, but it also makes certain choices seem completely idiotic... like switching to SystemD, was, from a security standpoint, the single worst move in the history of the Linux community
12:47:24 <absurdistani> because everyone moved from battle tested and secured software, to stuff known to be riddled with security problems
12:47:24 <DusXMT> For example, there were some really nasty exploits possible with ImageMagick a few years ago, and it allowed the attackers to run arbitrary code and download the site's source code
12:48:04 <doug16k> sudo is better because you can revoke the ability for a user to be root, on a user-by-user basis. if you force logging on as root, and more than one person needs that privilege, you have to tell multiple users and have no way of revoking one person's root privilege
12:48:37 <DusXMT> doug16k: with su, there's the wheel group for this purpose :) At least on the BSDs
12:49:51 <doug16k> sudo can also be configured to allow certain commands to just run as root with no prompt. you can allow users to run certain things with high privilege with no prompt
12:50:15 <doug16k> without SUID
12:50:30 <absurdistani> I think we're all on the same page, the main thing is just that people need to thoroughly think through their own setup and where attacks are likely to come from, and what will most likely be exploited
12:50:44 <DusXMT> indeed
12:52:08 <DusXMT> doug16k: that's probably the only real advantage of sudo, I think, but even that can be replicated on Desktop systems with policykit
12:52:29 <DusXMT> (for example, policykit is used for mounting disks in graphical environments)
12:52:40 <DusXMT> (or setting the brightness on my laptop)
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12:53:13 <doug16k> yeah, logging on as root can be acceptable. I'm mostly just giving reasons why I like sudo instead of su
12:53:29 <DusXMT> And that's perfectly fine :)
12:53:58 <DusXMT> I just think it's good to have a healthy discussion every now and then
12:54:11 <DusXMT> especially about security
12:55:09 <doug16k> plus, that matrix joke about sudo is amusing. "You can't logon as root, that's impossible! You have to understand the truth: there is no root password"
12:55:41 <DusXMT> sudo uses the same setuid systemcall as su though...
12:55:47 <geist> doug16k: hah
12:56:15 <clever> DusXMT: its not really even a syscall, the binary just has an extra bit set on it in the FS, and the kernel always runs it as root
12:57:13 <DusXMT> clever: Huh, I thought the application had to explicitly invoke the systemcall, and the fs bit was only to allow it to do so
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12:57:47 <clever> DusXMT: it starts with 2 uid's no it, effective and real, pointing to the user that started it, and the user that owns the setuid file
12:57:56 <clever> DusXMT: and it can use setuid and seteuid to swap those 2
12:58:10 <DusXMT> Ah, I see :) Thanks for clearing that up
12:58:48 <clever> also, under linux, the setuid syscall is not process wide, its thread local
12:59:06 <clever> so one thread can drop root, then mess with another threads stack and escalate its privs
12:59:29 <clever> glibc will send a special message to every thread, to force them all to drop root, but there are some edgecases where it doesnt fully work
12:59:48 <geist> yeah linux's dumb pid == tid thing is really a pain
13:00:12 <geist> i got the impression that that's linux specific, though i admit that i dont know precisely how other systems deal with it, specifically solaris which probably did it right
13:00:16 <clever> i think the root cause of that problem, is that some things are process wide (memory mappings, open file handles), and some things are thread wide (uid)
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13:20:45 <sortie> Evening
13:21:36 <gamozo> Good eve
13:21:57 <gamozo> I did some benchmarks of my ARM64 box a few days ago, seems like 10% slower per GHz than my latest Intel
13:21:59 <gamozo> I'm blown away
13:22:04 <lkurusa> Hey sortie!
13:22:09 <gamozo> this test was just doing sha256 in a loop, but _shrug_
13:22:15 <sortie> Yo lkurusa
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13:24:51 <booyah> in your OSes, how do you get programs to run in them?
13:25:05 <booyah> e.g. do normal programs compiled for linux would run in them (you provide own libc)?
13:25:08 <gamozo> write them all
13:25:18 <gamozo> or provide your own libc then lots of stuff can run
13:25:29 <gamozo> further provide a POSIX emulation layer (or actually just be POSIX) and you can run even more
13:25:52 <booyah> so you code kernel syscall to e.g. write to fd 0, then libc write() and then build it with gcc?
13:25:53 <gamozo> just a basic libc will get you a lot of compat, but not for any large projects like a browser
13:26:02 <gamozo> yes
13:26:12 <gamozo> lots of room for error and issues, but in general yes
13:26:32 <booyah> wouldn't it be nice to implement (most of) linuxes syscalls and then normal libc would work
13:26:45 <lkurusa> mine runs some linux binaries unmodified
13:26:54 <booyah> nice
13:26:57 <booyah> lkurusa: url?
13:27:03 <lkurusa> but that’s just because i implement POSIX system calls and use the Linux system call numbering for some reason
13:27:41 <lkurusa> https://github.com/levex/levos7
13:27:42 <lkurusa> use with caution
13:27:42 <bslsk05> ​levex/levos7 - A UNIX-like hobby kernel, running binutils, dash, GCC and ncurses, with an alright TCP/IP stack. (2 forks/15 watchers)
13:27:44 <lkurusa> you’ve been warned
13:28:13 <lkurusa> lol “alright”
13:28:30 <lkurusa> by alright I mean, it worked in china
13:28:55 <lkurusa> that is, it withstood huge latency and packet loss %
13:29:27 <Ameisen> any of y'all know why I might be running into not-particularly-useful ld errors ('5') if I build avr-libc with -flto
13:29:57 <booyah> if (c == '\r') console->putc('\n');
13:29:59 <booyah> lol
13:30:11 <DusXMT> Ameisen: Have you tried asking in #avr?
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13:31:14 <DusXMT> Ameisen: Also, a more detailed error log may be useful
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13:31:23 <lkurusa> booyah: :-)
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13:31:26 <booyah> void console_puts(char *s) while (*s) console_emit(*s++); how this works, who owns the memory in s? what if it isn't properly null terminated
13:31:38 <Ameisen> there is no particular log
13:31:44 <Ameisen> it shows the commands executed, then just 'returned code 5'
13:31:57 <gamozo> http://www.triplefault.io/2018/05/spurious-db-exceptions-with-pop-ss.html
13:31:58 <bslsk05> ​www.triplefault.io: Spurious #DB exceptions with the "POP SS" instruction (CVE-2018-8897)
13:32:02 <gamozo> hope everyone updated their interrupt handlers :P
13:32:07 <lkurusa> it’s the kernel console
13:32:12 <lkurusa> i assume the strings i pass to it are alright
13:32:14 <DusXMT> booyah: That's a compact way of iterating over a C string, while becomes '\0', which evaluates as false, once the loop reaches the end of the string
13:32:15 <Ameisen> I'm the only one even really using LTO in #AVR so they are unlikely to be helpful
13:32:26 <gamozo> geist: Have yall mitigated Fuschia to POP SS?
13:32:30 <lkurusa> it’s not secure at all, i give you that
13:32:32 <gamozo> (or other CPU vulns in general)
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13:32:53 <Ameisen> basically, I am presuming that ld is running into some sort of internal error
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13:33:46 * DusXMT personally likes writing code more expressively, but it is a common enough sight that most C programmers should know what that loop does
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13:34:56 <DusXMT> (Elements of Programming Style is quite a great publication :3 It deals with topics like this)
13:36:18 <doug16k> gamozo, that spurious #DB pushes the return address? it's screwed otherwise
13:37:09 <doug16k> it = that thread (at least)
13:39:29 <gamozo> It should
13:39:45 <doug16k> double fault does not push a return address
13:39:46 <gamozo> I think the TL;DR is that you should expect the possibility of a #DB early on during your syscall and software int handlers
13:39:57 <gamozo> #DB is debug break
13:40:08 <doug16k> oh
13:40:22 <gamozo> (hardware breakpoints, single steps, etc)
13:40:35 <doug16k> right
13:40:42 <lkurusa> that’s basically it
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13:50:46 <Brnocrist> http://everdox.net/popss.pdf
13:50:52 <Brnocrist> very clever
13:53:29 <Brnocrist> so #DB is handled after syscall handler, but still in ring0
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13:53:45 <Brnocrist> syscall or other interrupt
13:57:35 <gamozo> yep
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16:34:08 <graphitemaster> geist, http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2018-8897
16:34:09 <bslsk05> ​cve.mitre.org: CVE - CVE-2018-8897
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16:37:20 <geist> graphitemaster: what you say!
16:37:54 <geist> ah will have to grok this one
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16:38:19 <graphitemaster> only sentence you need
16:38:21 <graphitemaster> "If the instruction following the MOV to SS or POP to SS instruction is an instruction like SYSCALL, SYSENTER, INT 3, etc. that transfers control to the operating system at CPL < 3, the debug exception is delivered after the transfer to CPL < 3 is complete. OS kernels may not expect this order of events and may therefore experience unexpected behavior when it occurs. "
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16:42:37 <geist> i wonder if that behavior is the same on all intel and amd processors
16:42:49 <geist> that seems like one of those things you'd expect different vendors to interpret differently
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16:45:05 <graphitemaster> xen has a patch https://xenbits.xen.org/xsa/advisory-260.html
16:45:06 <bslsk05> ​xenbits.xen.org: XSA-260 - Xen Security Advisories
16:45:12 <graphitemaster> seems it's possible to gain privlidge escalation with it
16:45:41 <graphitemaster> looks like all intels are affected
16:46:33 <graphitemaster> "why does POP SS defer interrupts in the first place ? because bloody segmentation they had to be able to quasi-atomically do a MOV (E)SP directly after too, of course, and they didn't actually add the LSS instruction mechanism to do the whole segmented stack pointer handling less awfully until 386"
16:46:52 <Belxjander> so basically "syscall" event execution precedes "debugger" event execution...
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16:47:24 <Belxjander> so when the debugger event execution happens the syscall has started so the debugger obtains system priviledges equal to the syscall entered
16:47:43 <graphitemaster> yep
16:47:56 <lkurusa> it seems implied that AMD processors are at higher risk of exploitation
16:48:25 <Belxjander> and this is when a debugger trap instruction is actually BEFORE the syscall instruction in execution order ?
16:49:34 <Belxjander> seems to me like someone FUBAR'd the pipeline handling and just allowed for "syscall" + "debug" flags to be set by the instructions, which means they are checked in "syscall" then "debugger" order during microcode
16:49:58 <Belxjander> with the same sequence order of results
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16:51:35 <Belxjander> the only proper way to handle that is to present a full set of exception functions and then deal with each of them allowing for exception handling (sysenter/interrupt/debug/other?) events to occur at any time
16:51:40 <graphitemaster> well, apparently the intel sdm documents this behavior
16:51:49 <graphitemaster> and has forever
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16:52:11 <graphitemaster> goes to show how many people who write OSes actually read that thing
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16:52:31 <Belxjander> intel sdm documents ?
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16:52:40 <graphitemaster> software developer manual, yeah
16:52:42 <graphitemaster> for x86
16:52:42 <lkurusa> software development manuals
16:53:03 <lachlan_s> Ayyy, nebulet doesn't allow untrusted code to run, so no need to worry about the `pop ss` vuln
16:53:05 <lkurusa> I find that the SDM is easy to use if you know what you are looking for
16:53:18 <lkurusa> just finding information about certain behaviors is a lot of grepping and is prone to error imo
16:53:34 <graphitemaster> https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=d8ba61ba58c88d5207c1ba2f7d9a2280e7d03be9
16:53:34 <bslsk05> ​git.kernel.org: kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git - Linux kernel source tree
16:54:53 <Belxjander> lkurusa: no chance of a simple "32bit only" table of <instruction>=<opcode value sequence> with x,y,z bit masks of arguments included ?
16:55:34 <lkurusa> I was looking exactly for that today
16:55:38 <lkurusa> sandpile.org/
16:55:55 <lkurusa> oh, “32-bit” only, well I don’t know...
16:56:53 <chrisf> which mode do you mean by "32-bit" ?
16:57:59 <Belxjander> chrisf: starting with old-school 16-bit real mode...and then going for "protected mode" is what I was thinking of
16:59:05 <Belxjander> other than that I need to mess around with getting an EFI bootloader launch happening
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17:00:16 <chrisf> if you're doing EFI why do you care about early boot at all?
17:00:53 <chrisf> handoff in long mode :)
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17:35:00 <Belxjander> chrisf: and there you go with an assumption and fuckup the answer entirely :)
17:35:38 <Belxjander> because the EFI bootloader is actually a separate problem to the instruction octet sequence listing
17:36:01 <Belxjander> >><two separate projects for different things><<
17:36:51 <Belxjander> making assumptions around me is usually making a fuckup as a rule generally
17:37:08 <Belxjander> sometimes there is an exception...:) but rarely
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17:57:26 <lkurusa> does anyone have experience with SGX?
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18:02:21 <klange> ... the singapore stock exchange?
18:03:27 <klange> (I think there's like 3 different actually relevant things you could be talking about...)
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18:06:14 <lkurusa> intel’s software guard extensions
18:06:15 <lkurusa> encrypted memory, enclaves, the like
18:06:42 <chrisf> does it actually work on anything shipping?
18:06:56 <lkurusa> SGX1 does since Skylake
18:06:59 <lkurusa> SGX2 is still not implemented in hardware
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18:07:07 <klange> Last I checked it was extremely flawed - impossible to discover support, serious problems with actually do it what it advertises, etc.
18:07:41 <lkurusa> it’s easy to discover if it’s supported, it’s difficult to figure out if you can actually use it
18:07:54 <lkurusa> there are some serious issues, some of them are fixed in SGX2, though.
18:08:09 <chrisf> Belxjander: for your table: the first 100 pages or so of volume 2a
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18:09:20 <chrisf> and then the inline tables in every instruction description
18:10:09 <chrisf> the encoding is total chaos
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18:18:38 <pounce> What is an ioctl?
18:20:17 <Mutabah> A general purpose syscall for controlling something about a "file"
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18:26:13 <klange> ioctl is the dumping ground of "well, we made everything a file, but it turns out read/write/seek isn't enough of an API to do useful thing with complex devices"
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18:27:00 <pounce> lol
18:27:03 <aalm> klange, hah
18:27:31 <Mutabah> Funny yes, but it's the truth :)
18:27:38 <aalm> yep
18:29:24 <Ameisen> ah, lovely Windows
18:29:34 <Ameisen> 'oh, you're building something? You won't mind if I restart to update."
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18:30:04 <Mutabah> 10?
18:31:06 <Ameisen> yeah
18:31:14 <Ameisen> Left it building something that'd take about an hour, went for a walk
18:31:17 <Ameisen> came back to a login screen
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18:37:30 <pounce> looks like this QEMU change is going to be bigger than I thought
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18:38:55 <lachlan_s> Apparently, chrome os will (the dev channel already can) run linux applications soon
18:39:08 <SGautam> chrome os can run linux apps already
18:39:12 <SGautam> chrome os can run linux
18:39:13 <SGautam> lol
18:39:20 <lachlan_s> Well, without crouton
18:39:26 <lachlan_s> Or booting into another distribution
18:39:27 <SGautam> that's so stupid
18:39:34 <lachlan_s> Why?
18:39:40 <SGautam> people want chrome os for a minimalist experience
18:39:42 <SGautam> i think
18:39:56 <lachlan_s> Yes, this maintains that while allowing you to still use linux apps
18:39:57 <SGautam> then it would just become "another Linux distribution"
18:40:24 <SGautam> can't chromeos already run Android apps?
18:40:26 <lachlan_s> Having a linux experience that just works would be nice, you know
18:40:29 <lachlan_s> Yeah, it can
18:40:36 <pounce> I uninstalled chromeOS and installed arch on my chromebook. It was useless
18:41:06 <SGautam> duh. you're on #osdev. it is useless for you for the most part
18:41:18 <SGautam> i think for most people chrome OS is fine
18:41:20 <lachlan_s> You probably can run qemu on chromeos now
18:41:26 <lachlan_s> Without crouton, etc
18:41:31 <SGautam> what do most people use a laptop for anyway
18:41:38 <lachlan_s> porn mostly
18:41:43 <SGautam> uhh nope
18:41:50 <SGautam> that's what tablets are for
18:41:53 <Mutabah> Portable dev machine?
18:42:07 <lkurusa> working on embedded stuff
18:42:09 <SGautam> Mutabah, well, most programmers
18:42:11 <aalm> portable terminal to real machines.
18:42:18 <lkurusa> i use my ipad pro as my main portable development machine
18:42:21 <Mutabah> Glorified serial(/network) terminal
18:42:27 <lachlan_s> Actually thinking about getting a pixelbook now
18:42:34 <lkurusa> ipad pro == a $1000 ssh client
18:42:34 <SGautam> well. i was thinking about document editing/facebook
18:42:58 <Mutabah> lkurusa: Toshiba Portege == a $2000 ssh client :)
18:43:16 <SGautam> iPad costs 1000 US?
18:43:18 <Mutabah> (Ok, that was AUD, which is a little weaker than the USD)
18:43:22 <lkurusa> :)
18:43:29 <lkurusa> oh haha
18:43:34 <Kazinsal> The portege line confuses me
18:43:34 <lachlan_s> I currently use a surface pro
18:43:40 <Kazinsal> They're supposed to be like, ultrabooks or something
18:43:48 <SGautam> surface is cool
18:43:49 <lachlan_s> But the interface between wsl and everything else is a bit weird
18:43:52 <Kazinsal> But they seem kinda late 2000s in thickness to me
18:43:55 <SGautam> you can actually do useful things on it
18:43:59 <SGautam> like run Windows
18:44:02 <SGautam> and Office, probably
18:44:04 <lkurusa> SGautam (IRC): $700 or so for the device + $169 for keyboard + tax = ~$1000
18:44:14 <lkurusa> the keyboard is a rip off, but it’s okay to type on and it’s fair for ssh
18:44:14 <lachlan_s> Spent 1400 on mine
18:44:25 <Kazinsal> I don't even know what a good laptop brand is these days
18:44:29 <Mutabah> Kazinsal: The current portege line are high-powered tablets with a keyboard dock
18:44:39 <Kazinsal> Oof.
18:44:44 <SGautam> what country are you living in $700 translates to 47,000 INR
18:44:46 <lkurusa> Dell XPS, Lenovo X1 Carbon, I heard good things of these
18:44:49 <SGautam> that's so fucking stupid
18:45:05 <lachlan_s> I'm just tired of windows
18:45:17 <SGautam> an iPad costs about 300 US here
18:45:18 <lachlan_s> It's always just a little buggy
18:45:25 <Mutabah> (and mine was a godsend for completing an EE degree, perfect for sketching over slides)
18:45:37 <Kazinsal> Yeah I think work gives the sales guys Dell Latitude 5xxx laptops
18:45:42 <lkurusa> lachlan_s (IRC): just install linux
18:45:54 <lkurusa> i recommend fedora or linux mint
18:45:54 <lachlan_s> Yeah, I probably should.
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18:46:13 <lachlan_s> I keep hearing about compatibility issues with linux running on surface pros
18:46:38 <lachlan_s> I downloaded ubuntu 18.04 in case I decided to switch over
18:47:04 <SGautam> i would have thought surface was better with Windows
18:47:16 <SGautam> since you know, it's the official os
18:47:24 <lachlan_s> That's what they're designed for yeah
18:47:35 <lachlan_s> But I run all my dev stuff through the wsl anyway
18:50:24 <lachlan_s> If chrome os can actually run dev tools and qemu, etc, I'll switch over to a pixelbook
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19:12:51 <klange> lachlan_s: What model?
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19:13:10 <klange> I have a Pro 4. It took some custom kernels to get certain things working, and the cameras are a lost cause at the moment.
19:13:51 <pounce> I love programming on my (ex) chromebook. It's slow af though
19:14:01 <klange> That said, cameras and the weird suspend mode are the only things not functioning on my Pro 4 running Ubuntu - touch, pen, keyboard (even detaching/reattaching, which is weird), wifi...
19:14:12 <Mutabah> Yeah, I had quite a bit of fun with my old netbook, until the screen interface started dying
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19:14:38 <klange> And ****ing OnBoard shows up at 1/4 size on my lock screen
19:15:00 <lachlan_s> klange: I have the newest surface pro
19:15:10 <lachlan_s> Came out last summer
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19:16:14 <klange> Ah, yeah, not sure about the latest model. It's mostly similar to the 4, so maybe the hacks for the 4's touch/pen support will work, but beyond that, no clue.
19:17:00 <lachlan_s> I did hear that Ubuntu 18.04 seemed to work out of the box
19:17:17 <klange> It's possible the pen/touch driver stuff finally got merged upstream.
19:17:31 <klange> I should try a live USB and see what's working.
19:17:50 * klange drops ubuntu 18.04 live usb in bag
19:17:54 <lachlan_s> Let me know what you find
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19:25:38 <klange> I wonder if a fix for the keyboard hotplugging every made it upstream. i2c driver failed to reinitialize the device when it was reconnected - some udev rules to reload it when the device was detected fixed that up
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19:34:22 <bluezinc> Hello World?
19:34:30 <klange> Hello, bluezinc.
19:38:13 <SGautam> Hello 0x0000FF00Zn
19:40:07 <bluezinc> :)
19:40:39 <bluezinc> Just ran into this site, and it looks fairly interesting.
19:41:03 <SGautam> wow that's just what happened to me as well
19:41:18 <SGautam> welcome to the community, then
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19:41:39 <bluezinc> glad to have found it.
19:42:08 <bluezinc> I'm currently going through the wiki. Anything good resources I should be looking at?
19:42:31 <bluezinc> s/anything/any other/
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19:46:14 <geist> oh to say anything other than 'all of it' would be to imply that it is not perfect in its entirety
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19:58:50 <pounce> The multiboot2 structure can be put, say, in the same page as one of my kernel sections, right?
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19:59:05 <pounce> because I'm having that happen to someone but it's not reproducable
20:05:09 <bluezinc> um... is wiki.osdev.org down?
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20:08:40 <pounce> Is there any way to pad your sections in the linker so that doesn't happen?
20:10:35 <aalm> linker script?
20:10:55 <drakonis> it is down ,yes
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20:15:17 <pounce> aalm: yeah, how in the linker script
20:16:51 <pounce> also page is back
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20:18:32 <aalm> ?
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20:19:15 <pounce> what would I do in the linker script to pad my sections to the page boundary?
20:19:36 <aalm> . = ALIGN(__ALIGN_SIZE);
20:20:08 <pounce> Yeah, I do that already. But there still might be empty space after my section and before the next one
20:20:17 <klange> BLOCK is the correct command
20:20:28 <klange> Apply it to all sections with the appropriate size.
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20:21:38 <aalm> pounce, see the comment near end: https://github.com/openbsd/src/blob/master/sys/arch/arm/conf/kern.ldscript
20:21:40 <bslsk05> ​github.com: src/kern.ldscript at master · openbsd/src · GitHub
20:23:52 <pounce> klange: so my current setup is `.section ALIGN(4K) : AT(ADDR(.section) - KERNEL_BASE)`. if I change align to block would that do it?
20:23:56 <pounce> aalm: I'll try this
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20:25:19 <klange> this is the link script for my kernel https://github.com/klange/toaru-nih/blob/master/kernel/link.ld
20:25:21 <bslsk05> ​github.com: toaru-nih/link.ld at master · klange/toaru-nih · GitHub
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20:28:11 <pounce> will try both
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20:34:54 <bluezinc> well, just started building GCC... let's see how long this takes...
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20:39:32 <olsner> https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2018-8897 interesting gotcha
20:39:33 <bslsk05> ​cve.mitre.org: CVE - CVE-2018-8897
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20:44:04 <pounce> huh...
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20:46:01 <pounce> So Linux just fixes this by moving #BP off of its debug stack? Why does that change anything?
20:47:39 <klange> computers were a mistake
20:49:50 <pounce> soon kernel programming will just be: who can manage the most hacks that prevent hardware problems
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20:50:08 <bluezinc> pounce: isn't it already?
20:50:35 <pounce> the future is now
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20:50:52 <bluezinc> problem: the hardware guys forgot to implement a kernel. solution: implement it in software.
20:50:55 <variable> pounce: it isn't already?
20:54:37 <pounce> hardware bugs are always fun, but seeing how the kernel fixes them is great to me
20:55:22 <bluezinc> I mean, there was that hard drive company that fixed an oil leak with firmware...
20:56:53 <bcos_> It'd be nice if the CPU supported some kind of "any segment register load at CPL=3 causes immediate GPF exception" mode - there's no sane reason for (modern) processes to ever load anything into SS
20:57:11 <bcos_> (due to "flat address space")
20:58:14 <Mutabah> Yeah, it'd be nice
21:00:05 <bluezinc> also, are the instructions on the wiki for setting up a cross-compiler out-of-date?
21:00:23 <bluezinc> (or targeted at a particular linux distro?)
21:00:44 <Mutabah> They should be pretty generic
21:00:50 <Mutabah> and approximately in-date
21:00:56 <Mutabah> Which page are you looking at?
21:01:10 <bluezinc> Right now, just looking here: https://wiki.osdev.org/Building_GCC
21:01:12 <bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: Building GCC - OSDev Wiki
21:01:55 <pounce> x86 was a mistake
21:02:26 <pounce> although writing x86 asm makes me feel like a hackerman because there are so many weird instructions
21:02:46 <bluezinc> Mutabah: binutils seems to configure & build fine.
21:03:23 <bluezinc> but gcc is asking me to decide whether to enable or disable multilib support.
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21:10:41 <klange> bluezinc: how did you configure gcc?
21:15:15 <bluezinc> klange: I think I've fixed it on my own now.
21:15:40 <bluezinc> I was missing a couple of the multilib libraries.
21:16:03 <klange> you, uh, probably shouldn't need those...
21:16:29 <bluezinc> that's, uh, sort of why I was concerned...
21:16:59 <bluezinc> but I was just following the instructions here:
21:17:05 <bluezinc> https://wiki.osdev.org/Building_GCC
21:17:19 <bluezinc> going step-by-step through them...
21:17:35 <klange> which instructions there, because there's like half a dozen different sets
21:18:10 <bluezinc> These ones: https://wiki.osdev.org/Building_GCC#GCC
21:18:12 <bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: Building GCC - OSDev Wiki
21:18:26 <klange> that doesn't even specify a target
21:18:53 <bluezinc> if I understand correctly, you need to update the host GCC before building for a target.
21:19:04 <klange> highly unlikely unless your gcc is ancient
21:19:26 <bluezinc> so 7.3 is good enough?
21:19:38 <klange> like if you were running gcc 4 i might suggestion upgraded to 6
21:19:50 <bluezinc> well, then...
21:19:57 * bluezinc ^C's
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22:15:39 <variable> bluezinc: or just use clang: its simpler
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22:49:35 <SGautam> So I just tried out Linux Mint
22:50:14 <SGautam> It feels rather polished, compared to Ubuntu. I'm installing it on my main laptop rn
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22:51:34 <Mutabah> That's my expirence too
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22:52:30 <variable> SGautam: it tastes delicious too
22:52:50 <SGautam> Mutabah, Yeah, I'm thinking they worked well on the window animations and it's definitely less loaded than a traditional Ubuntu install
22:53:18 <SGautam> I'm using the Cinnamon one, it's got something to do with that too since Ubuntu uses GNOME which is supposedly heavier
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22:53:53 <variable> I've been using TrueOS lately, has some neat stuff, but not that impressed yet :\
22:54:15 <SGautam> Are you an OS nomad too?
22:54:27 <variable> OS nomad ?
22:54:44 <SGautam> a term I just came up with
22:54:54 <SGautam> basically somone who keeps shifting from OS to OS
22:54:58 <variable> o
22:55:10 <variable> I tend to use FreeBSD
22:55:17 <variable> but ocasionally try other things
22:55:31 <SGautam> I mostly stick to Win10 for work because Office
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22:56:00 <SGautam> But since MS has made their Office online for free, I might consider checking that out.
22:56:06 <variable> I use gdocs
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22:58:27 <SGautam> Well, Office 2016 is just beautiful
22:59:07 <SGautam> They've templates too, which I think aren't there in LibreOffice as of yet.
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23:00:08 <SGautam> Reminds me, has anyone of you got an Office suite working on your OS?
23:00:28 <SGautam> I would think a few hobby OSes have ported GTK, I don't remember very well.
23:00:54 <SGautam> Even something like AbiWord would look promising
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23:01:24 <klange> there is only one OS still in the realm of "hobby" that I know of that has a GTK port, and it's the defunct SkyOS.
23:02:59 <SGautam> Have you considered porting GTK?
23:03:17 <SGautam> I'm not entirely sure how much work would it take
23:03:20 <klange> Pedigree may be capable... possibly through its Linux API emulation which is capable of running X11...
23:04:43 <klange> I haven't looked into a GTK port in a long time; last I checked it wanted significantly more Unixiness than I could offer at the time.
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