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http://bespin.org/~qz/search/?view=1&c=osdev&y=18&m=7&d=12

Thursday, 12 July 2018

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03:54:20 <jjuran> klange: Do you publish your partition table on GrubHub? :-)
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03:58:10 <klange> Your joke is falling flat on me.
03:58:31 <klange> Though I'm compelled to make *some* sort of quip about Eat24 and how my former employer sold them to GrubHub.
04:02:14 <mischief> i rather liked eat24
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06:47:34 <doug16k> any suggestions for how to safely detect the presence of vga in qemu?
06:47:55 <doug16k> pci bus scan doesn't show any PCI_DEV_CLASS_DISPLAY/PCI_SUBCLASS_DISPLAY_VGA devices
06:48:28 <doug16k> I guess my SMP system with PCIe has an ISA vga in qemu, lol
06:48:56 <klange> define "presence of vga" - how did you configure qemu?
06:49:30 <doug16k> normally. I'm starting to work on virtio-gpu, so vga may not exist
06:49:43 <klange> I see a 0300 for the Bochs device.
06:49:58 <doug16k> in pci bus scan you mean?
06:51:44 <doug16k> to be clear... right this moment, in my qemu config vga does exist, but I need to detect its absence when I have virtio-gpu. I'm not detecting its presence with dev class 3, subclass 0...
06:51:54 <doug16k> maybe I'm looking too strictly, I should ignore the subclass
06:51:55 <klange> One moment... With virtio-gpu I see an 0300.
06:52:06 <klange> It says it's a 0x1af4 (... red hat?) 0x1050
06:52:34 <klange> 00 is the subclass for vga, are you looking for something else?
06:54:20 <doug16k> I am trying to detect the presence of vga right now. I want my vga driver to not become the current text device in early startup
06:54:32 <doug16k> and the virtio scenario makes it possible for vga to not exist
06:55:09 <klange> Hm. At least in the QEMU case, the virtio interface works the same as the bochs virtual adapter + extra features.
06:55:36 <glauxosdever> Funny how you mention VGA, as I'm now reading about setting a VBE mode. Not needing any advice with this, but a little question related to using the framebuffer: for writing to it from the bootloader (real mode still), should I just use the memory banks (or is it better to temporarily switch to protected mode as I'll be doing anyway in the bootloader itself a little later)?
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06:56:05 <doug16k> does it? ah, maybe the efi startup is misleading me. that leaves me in graphics mode. thanks :)
06:56:30 <klange> yeah, efi is you're blocker here, it basically says "forget VGA, it doesn't exist"
06:57:04 <klange> You can specifically detect the virtio device and query it - either through the actual virtio interface (no clue! ask geist) or through the bochs interface to find out whether it's in a video mode at startup
06:57:32 <doug16k> yeah. I took the approach of trying to handle vga not existing before even starting virtio-gpu :)
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06:57:41 <klange> glauxosdever: Hm, I want to say get out of real mode as soon as possible, or stick to text mode as long as you're there and in need of output, but it's all personal preference.
06:57:47 <doug16k> I'll just make virtio-gpu a higher priority startup
06:58:27 <klange> yeah, I'm not actually sure there's a way to reliably detect non-presence of VGA that wouldn't somehow calse false positives (negatives?) with newer hardware...
06:58:51 <glauxosdever> klange: That's good as guideline. But I'll need to switch between RM/PM when loading the kernel and the modules
06:58:57 <doug16k> glauxosdever, get your ass to mars asap and go straight into protected mode in your bootloader
06:59:45 <klange> in the yold 3184, may just assume vga doesn't exist anymore and there's a magical linear framebuffer waiting for you in the promised land
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07:00:49 <glauxosdever> So do protected mode already, then switch to RM to set the FB and return to PM, then switch to RM to load the files and return to PM, etc?
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07:01:56 <doug16k> sure. make a bioscall helper, like this -> https://github.com/doug65536/dgos/blob/master/boot/bioscall.S
07:01:58 <bslsk05> ​github.com: dgos/bioscall.S at master · doug65536/dgos · GitHub
07:02:18 <klange> I should do that so I can get my BIOS loader doing more fun stuff.
07:02:50 <doug16k> then making bios calls is trivial -> https://github.com/doug65536/dgos/blob/master/boot/diskio.cc#L66
07:02:52 <bslsk05> ​github.com: dgos/diskio.cc at master · doug65536/dgos · GitHub
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07:03:36 <glauxosdever> Cool. I was thinking of doing it anyway (I thought I'd postpone it a bit and setup VBE for now, but I'll do it already)
07:05:55 <doug16k> klange, you read the keyboard hardware directly in your boot menu? I went the route of doing everything through bios calls in mine for max portability, including text output and keyboard input
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07:06:09 <doug16k> surprisingly, the bios API for raw keyboard input is quite decent
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07:06:26 <klange> I wrote my bios loader with running a CD through QEMU in mind, so it does a bunch of things directly that it really shouldn't.
07:06:46 <snowball> can't figure out how to word this, klange, in your vfs, does a node returned by finddir_fs() count as a reference to that file? (as if open() were called on it)
07:06:56 <klange> That's half of why I wrote the EFI ones - so I could have something that actually works.
07:06:56 <snowball> i feel a need to distinguish between opening() a file for i/o and simply holding a reference to it
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07:13:50 <klange> *shrug*
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08:05:10 <doug16k> virtio is a standard? I might find devices implementing it in qemu or virtualbox or elsewhere?
08:08:07 <doug16k> or is it strictly a qemu thing?
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08:10:28 <froggey> it's a standard. qemu & virtualbox both implement virtio devices, IBM does something with it too
08:10:37 <doug16k> awesome
08:10:54 <doug16k> it just became 4x more worthwhile to implement :)
08:11:40 <doug16k> I'm blown away by how elegant virtio-gpu looks. the docs make me feel like I can implement it in my sleep :)
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08:13:58 <froggey> yeah, it's dead simple to get going
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08:28:14 <isaacwoods> For managing drivers in a microkernel, should I just enumerate the PCI bus and effectively hard-code a process to create for each device type? Is there an example of a better solution in practice?
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08:33:32 <doug16k> the common approach is for drivers to register what they can handle when the driver is installed into some kind of data store. then when you enumerate you check the device against the configuration store. the tricky part is making it flexible enough to handle PCI device class/subclass/interface or PCI vendor/device or USB vendor/device or USB class/subclass/protocol or other things
08:35:10 <doug16k> sometimes a driver can handle a wide variety of things (USB HID), sometimes it can handle one exact device (cheap proprietary USB device)
08:35:27 <isaacwoods> Ah, yeah that seems better - thank you. My problem is I wanted the driver layer to be arch-common, and not all arches support PCI
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08:37:55 <doug16k> you'd probably end up with different kinds of enumerators that know how to handle different interfaces, like a usb enumerator knowing how to match device descriptors against the configuration, or a pci enumerator doing the same
08:38:17 <doug16k> and it will be somewhat recursive. you can't enumerate usb until you've found the pci usb controller
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08:42:01 <doug16k> even a given device will spawn some level of recursive descent. a usb hub is a usb device in itself, but it spawns an enumeration of its ports
08:44:15 <doug16k> and a hub might be connected to one of its ports, spawning another descent. etc
08:44:58 <isaacwoods> right, I've got you
08:45:01 <isaacwoods> thanks so much!
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10:09:47 <akasei> froggey: now i know, why format with revision numer option didn't work... https://pastebin.com/FjKVJKRg :)
10:09:48 <bslsk05> ​pastebin.com: [Bash] [dell Cyjon]# losetup --show -f -P disk.raw /dev/loop0 [dell Cyjon]# tune2fs - Pastebin.com
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10:13:36 <glauxosdever> Ok, another issue: stage2 is loaded to 0x10000, CS:ORG = 0x1000:0x0000. But when jumping to 0x08:protected, protected will be "real protected" - 0x10000. I could do "jmp 0x08:(protected + 0x10000)", but it seems ugly to do so for everything that's in protected mode. Do you have anything better to suggest?
10:14:01 <glauxosdever> I'm using NASM BTW
10:15:31 <hgoel> whew, got my os working on one computer
10:15:49 <glauxosdever> Cool! :-)
10:16:11 <hgoel> the modular design made it a lot easier to pinpoint issues before the display is available
10:16:30 <hgoel> just called a 'force_crash' function at various points :P
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10:16:58 <glauxosdever> force_crash looks like great fun anyway!
10:17:00 <hgoel> also got the hd audio driver fixed, so node enumeration works on real hardware too
10:17:03 <hgoel> haha
10:17:50 <glauxosdever> At least you've got drivers. I'm still at the start of the stage2 bootloader
10:17:59 <hgoel> still, it doesn't work on my amd desktop, doesn't even manage to get the display up
10:18:08 <hgoel> well, you only started again recently
10:18:13 <glauxosdever> True
10:18:28 <glauxosdever> Do you use a framebuffer for AMD?
10:18:50 <glauxosdever> (I think you have a stub driver for Intel HD Graphics?)
10:19:33 <hgoel> at the moment, there's only a framebuffer driver for real hardware
10:20:13 <hgoel> I'll be starting work on the Intel graphics driver once I find and fix as many bugs and issues that popped up
10:21:08 <hgoel> like my physical memory allocator being potentially super buggy, and needing an option to allocate 32-bit or 64-bit addresses
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10:22:19 <hgoel> it just so happens that because I never tested in qemu with more than 4GB of memory, I never found some bugs that happen very early on in the boot process
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10:25:09 <glauxosdever> Anyway, basically I need to change the linear address here. As the offset in real mode is 0 + X, while the offest in protected mode is 0x10000 + X
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10:28:33 <hgoel> unfortunately I'm not too familiar with that sort of stuff anymore, so I can't help much there
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10:31:23 <glauxosdever> Hm, could also load it in the lowest 64 KiB
10:31:53 <glauxosdever> Hm, I'll try this
10:33:36 <MrOnlineCoder> hi, in a higher half kernel, when kernel is mapped to last 1 GiB for example, so application has 3 GiB to use, what if application requests more ram than theese 3 GB?
10:35:00 <chrisf> MrOnlineCoder: well, what they run out of is address space.
10:35:45 <chrisf> MrOnlineCoder: in that scenario, the mmap syscall (or whatever your OS uses) has to fail
10:36:57 <MrOnlineCoder> does that mean that even in modern OSes applications can use only 3 gb of ram?
10:37:30 <clever> MrOnlineCoder: all 32bit OS's
10:37:44 <clever> 32bit applications*
10:39:49 <clever> 64bit has a theoretical 16384 PB of space, so the problem doesnt exist there
10:40:18 <MrOnlineCoder> and where does 64 bit oses map their kernel?
10:43:56 <clever> address sizes : 48 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
10:44:03 <clever> my cpu only supports 48 bit addressing
10:44:29 <clever> so the top most 16 bits must all be identical (maybe 17 bits?)
10:45:10 <geist> right that means each 'half' of the virtual address space is functionally 47 bits long
10:45:16 <clever> as an example, the kernel would start at ffff 0000 0000 0000
10:45:27 <clever> if i'm getting the bit math right
10:45:34 <geist> ffff 8000 0000 0000
10:45:44 <clever> ah, thought that might be the case
10:45:46 <geist> and 0000 0000 0000 0000
10:46:02 <clever> 47 low bits, 16 dummy bits, 1 high bit
10:46:06 <geist> it's a little wonky, but just a thing to remember. the *total* number of bits are spread across both halves
10:46:19 <geist> yah, the 'high bit' is functionally a single 17 bit bit, that must all be 0 or 1s
10:46:38 <geist> (on x86 64 that is)
10:46:55 <clever> and that allows cpu vendors to upgrade from a 48bit system to a 50bit system, without having to re-invent the entire instruction set once more
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10:49:26 <geist> clever: 57 bits actually. there's a new 5 level page table system that intel has announced and will start showing up in newer high end servers
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10:49:38 <geist> adds another 9 bits to the virtual address space
10:49:44 <clever> ah
10:50:01 <clever> bigger step then i was thinking, but since you have to add an entire level at once, i guess it makes sense
10:50:18 <geist> yah, and each level adds 9 bits: 9 + 9 + 9 + 9 + 12 == 48
10:50:21 <geist> + 9 == 57
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10:50:34 <glauxosdever> Putting the code at the same linear address in both real mode and protected mode is indeed cleaner
10:50:45 <clever> my old irc client has 36bit physical, and my laptop has 39bit physical, main desktop is a full 48 on both
10:51:03 <clever> but physical is likely more a limitation of the cpu socket&motherboard
10:51:09 <geist> yah
10:51:36 <geist> it varies, usually desktop class stuff nowadays is in the 40-48 range. server cpus generally go up to 52 or so
10:51:44 <clever> i'm not sure why my main desktop has a 48bit physical, the motherboard only goes up to 32gig of ram
10:51:49 <geist> there's a cpuid field to read it, though it's mostly for informational purposes
10:52:02 <clever> but maybe the cpu supports more then the motherboard?, multi-processor arrangements?
10:52:09 <geist> probably
10:52:20 <geist> ryzens for example seem to be 48 hard coded
10:52:21 <clever> AM3+
10:52:26 <hgoel> that physical address size also includes mmio spaces I'm guessing
10:52:35 <geist> it does
10:52:58 <geist> most intel desktop stuff i've seen are in the 44 or so range. it affects the number of tag bits in the TLB and cache entries mostly
10:53:13 <hgoel> also, oof, I seem to be getting a spurious irq from the pic on my amd machine :/
10:53:17 <geist> AMD probably did 48 for desktop because they're basically using a single core design across the board, it's part of their modular design
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10:53:41 <geist> whereas intel tweaks the server cores a bit, fiddles with cache layout, extra AVX units, etc
10:53:49 <MrOnlineCoder> Is it possible to do all os dev on windows? cause I failed to build cross-compiler many times, so currently I use a VM with running Debian where I build my OS
10:53:50 <clever> geist: oh, it could be a server-grade die, in a consumer grade packet, with half the address bits simply not routed to pins
10:53:56 <clever> package*
10:53:57 <geist> right
10:54:19 <clever> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-7700HQ CPU @ 2.80GHz
10:54:21 <clever> address sizes : 39 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
10:54:25 <clever> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6300 @ 1.86GHz
10:54:28 <clever> address sizes : 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual
10:54:45 <geist> addressing doesn'treally work that way anymore since most busses are serial and whatnot, and the memory controllersa re on board, but it i'm sure affects the length of the packets and whatnot
10:54:53 <geist> and amount of silicon here or there to decode stuff
10:55:18 * geist goes afk for a few
10:55:37 <clever> ah yeah
10:55:44 <clever> even back with the original xbox and its hypertransport bus
10:56:12 <clever> and i read something about a recent cpu being able to either use all the lanes for pcie, or dedicating half the lanes to a 2nd cpu, to work in a dual-socket mode
10:56:31 <clever> with each cpu having half the pcie slot lanes, and then sending the other half of the lanes to the neighboring socket
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11:24:36 <qeos> hi
11:25:17 <qeos> how can I see where from been call to reset Bochs emu?
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11:26:43 <qeos> omg.. need to see log..
11:26:45 <qeos> done..
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11:34:29 <doug16k> hgoel, spurious irq really from pic or from apic?
11:34:55 <doug16k> if from apic, it means you had interrupts masked too long, it doesn't mean hardware glitch
11:35:21 <hgoel> it's irq 0x27, iirc I've set the apic spurious vector to 255
11:35:48 <doug16k> ah
11:35:53 <hgoel> *interrupt 0x27, not irq 0x27
11:36:02 <MrOnlineCoder> when installing dependencies via Cygwin for cross-compiler, should I install both binaries and source code for each dependency?
11:36:15 <hgoel> and well, seems like that is a pic spurious vector
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11:36:36 <hgoel> why not just use WSL?
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11:36:44 <doug16k> hgoel, you check the in-service register and bit 7 isn't set?
11:37:00 <hgoel> nope, haven't had much time to debug it yet
11:37:57 <doug16k> your PIC IRQ handler code should check the in-service register when the lowest priority IRQ input fires an interrupt. typically that'd be irq 7 or irq 15
11:38:13 <doug16k> if the in service register bit 7 is 1, it isn't spurious, that irq really occurred
11:39:02 <doug16k> that bit would be zero for a truly spurious irq
11:39:04 <hgoel> thing is, I'm not using the PIC at all, I'm just disabling it right before setting up the idt
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11:39:29 <doug16k> ah, then it probably is a spurious irq then. everything's masked on pics?
11:39:37 <hgoel> yep
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11:40:52 <hgoel> but does it make sense that it's happening consistently at the same point?
11:41:04 <doug16k> just once though? or repeatedly?
11:41:14 <doug16k> it's fairly common to get one spurious irq then never get any more
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11:42:16 <hgoel> probably only once, right now I just have things set so the kernel panics if an unhandled interrupt happens
11:42:23 <hgoel> so I can't tell if there's more than one just yet
11:42:45 <hgoel> it seems like it happens right after the ioapic is configured
11:43:07 <hgoel> but all ioapic lines are masked
11:43:37 <doug16k> sounds right. that's pretty common
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11:44:39 <doug16k> don't panic on spurious pic interrupt. you need to check, something like this -> https://github.com/doug65536/dgos/blob/master/kernel/arch/x86_64/cpu/legacy_pic.cc#L115
11:44:40 <bslsk05> ​github.com: dgos/legacy_pic.cc at master · doug65536/dgos · GitHub
11:44:59 <doug16k> that isn't an unhandled irq. unhandled is when you really get the irq (it isn't spurious) and there's no handler
11:46:35 <doug16k> line 118 checks the in service register. if that register says irq 7 (or irq 15 if slave) is not in service (spurious), it dismisses it with a no-op if it was irq 7, or EOIs the master if it was irq 15
11:47:08 <doug16k> you only do that check for IRQ 7 or IRQ 15
11:47:25 <hgoel> valid point
11:47:40 <hgoel> also, rip testing for now :( flash drive appears to be dead
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12:09:28 <MrOnlineCoder> nice, again i cannot build binutils for cross compiler, libiberty refuses to compile
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14:13:38 <MrOnlineCoder> YEA boii, finally I have successfully built cross-gcc, my mistake was that I had installed mingw gcc in my PATH, so cygwin used it as a default compiler to build gcc, but it failed, because it had win32 thread mode or something.
14:14:21 <MrOnlineCoder> so the way it can be checked is gcc -v, and check the thread mode, it should be posix if building for i686-elf
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14:37:44 <doug16k> MrOnlineCoder, nice
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15:59:28 <doug16k> uint_fast16_t is `unsigned long int` on gcc x86_64. isn't that strange? I expected it to be 32 bits
16:00:10 <clever> doug16k: fast may refer to something that the cpu can deal with efficiently
16:00:25 <clever> so the register is at least 16 bits, and in the native width of the cpu
16:00:40 <doug16k> ya, and it requires rex prefixes, so it isn't 'fast'. unsigned is faster
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16:01:16 <doug16k> it also doubles memory bandwidth requirement if you had a huge array of them
16:02:29 <doug16k> and uint_least16_t is actually 16 bits
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16:04:54 <doug16k> just found it strange using long for 'fast' type. oh well
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16:07:53 <doug16k> rex prefix would only add 1 (or zero) bytes per instruction and don't cost cycles, but costs a tiny bit of instruction fetch bandwidth
16:08:19 <doug16k> (zero when an addressing mode was already using r8 thru r15)
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16:13:08 <doug16k> geordi, --precedence 1 + 2 << 3
16:13:09 <geordi> (1 + 2) << 3
16:13:12 <doug16k> ^ lol
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16:16:04 <jjuran> doug16k: I would only consider a 'fast' type for storing in a register, not an array in memory.
16:18:19 <doug16k> yeah I suppose
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17:36:44 <palk> doug16k: to be fair, using a 16-bit type would likely have the same effect on instruction fetch bandwidth as its use introduces the operand-size prefix
17:37:03 <palk> (same effect as the added rex prefix)
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17:39:26 <palk> so, in that case, using the 64-bit type is actually preferred because the use of 16-bit types introduces extra data dependencies if not extra micro-ops (the ISA requires that 16-bit operations merge the produced low 16-bits with the high 16-bits of the previous value).
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17:40:17 <palk> as to why they didn't make it 32 bits... I can't think of a good reason
17:40:29 <palk> (from an ISA standpoint)
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18:36:54 <doug16k> palk, exactly
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18:38:16 <doug16k> I was just going to throw `unsigned` type there, but thought it would be nice to express intent in the code that the actual valid range of that thing is 16 bits
18:39:05 <ybyourmom> I'm not really into pokemon
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19:07:07 <palk> doug16k: assuming we're talking about C, it's usually better to default to int / unsigned int (which are guaranteed to be at least 16-bit types) as the standard guarantees that all expressions are upconverted to at least int / unsigned int.
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19:08:03 <palk> so in your case of requiring at least a 16-bit type, I think it wise to use int / unsigned (int)
19:08:59 <klange> Fixed size types for structs where communicating with hardware or network transport or file storage matters, int and unsigned int in code... is not a wrong way to go.
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19:09:37 <palk> I'd just also remind you that the standard only guarantees that int is defined to only at least be a 16-bit type (i.e., don't assume it's 32-bit)
19:11:13 <klange> If you're building kernels, a lot of the standard is meaningless.
19:11:22 <palk> klange: one cannot assume the presence of fixed-width types, nor that the offsets chosen by the implementation for a particular struct will conform to the machine view
19:11:39 <palk> klange: I disagree with that statement
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19:12:31 <klange> Uh, disagree all you want, the compiler modes required for writing kernel code are noncompliant to the standard.
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19:12:46 <palk> In fact, I would argue that it's more meaningful for the kernel developer where (perhaps) the architecture cannot be assumed, as opposed to a particular application which might be able to assume the architecture
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19:13:14 <klange> It's such a problem that over in the neighboring territory of C++ land there's a draft in the works so they can update their standards to allow for a compliant kernel-targetting C++.
19:13:27 <Mutabah> stdint.h and int16_least_t ?
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19:13:36 <palk> I know nothing about, nor speak towards C++
19:13:42 <klange> Kernels are the only thing that *can* assume an architecture reliably...
19:13:53 <palk> Mutabah: I'm sorry, was that a question?
19:14:16 <Mutabah> Sorry, doug16k's comment about an `unsigned` that's supposed to be 16 bits
19:14:28 <palk> klange: that's patently incorrect; there are far more applications that assume an architecture than there are kernels
19:15:02 <palk> Mutabah: I still do not understand your question
19:15:32 <Mutabah> stdint.h (a compiler-provided header) provides `int16_least_t` - a type that is at least 16 bits long
19:15:39 <palk> that is correct
19:15:44 <Mutabah> There's also _fast variants for the fastest of each type
19:15:49 <palk> also correct
19:15:50 <Mutabah> (Sorry, might not ahve read enough scrollback)
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19:16:28 <palk> The "problem" with using the "_least" variants is that they might be less efficient to use than the "_fast" variants
19:16:53 <palk> but the "_fast16" variant he had found for his particular compiler was a 64-bit type
19:17:10 <palk> which to him was undesirable compared to the 32-bit type
19:17:13 <doug16k> right
19:17:52 <doug16k> x86_64 gcc declares int_fast16_t as unsigned long int (!) and int_least16_t as unsigned short int
19:18:18 <palk> doug16k: "unsigned long int" is a nebulous definition
19:18:22 <klange> I wonder if actual benchmark analysis went into that decision for int_fast16_t
19:18:35 <doug16k> yes I know, but we both know what it means on x86_64
19:18:46 <palk> Forgive me, but I do not
19:18:53 <doug16k> long is 64 bit on x86_64
19:19:03 <palk> that is not generally true
19:19:41 <doug16k> does "generally" mean on windows?
19:20:17 <doug16k> it is 64 bits on gcc in x86_64 elf abi
19:20:53 <palk> gen·er·al - n. (of a rule, principle, etc.) true for all cases.
19:21:05 <doug16k> geordi, << sizeof(long)
19:21:06 <geordi> 8
19:21:22 <palk> an anecdote is by definition not general
19:21:47 <doug16k> dude it is on the toolchain I am using. I know you can't assume long means 8. that's why I was using stdint typedef
19:22:02 <palk> "It's this way for me" is not a valid excuse
19:22:19 <doug16k> excuse? what are you talking about?
19:24:32 <palk> klange: I wonder that myself. I suspect that they forced it to 64-bit in an attempt to expose the extended register space that the rex prefix afforded while minimizing variability of performance by mandating the rex prefix (due to the REX.W)
19:25:07 <palk> klange: to me, that appears to be the only reasonable explanation
19:26:35 <palk> doug16k: "dude it is on the toolchain I am using." is an excuse for your assumption that "long is 64 bit on x86_64"
19:26:52 <doug16k> there is no penalty whatsoever for using the low half of a 64 bit register on any x86_64 implementation. register renaming renames the halves of the register separately. writing to a 32 bit destination renames the upper half to a permanently zero internal register
19:27:30 <palk> this sentence is incorrect: "register renaming renames the halves of the register separately."
19:27:42 <doug16k> palk, please stop with the condescending language lawyer stuff. thanks
19:28:21 <klange> You seem to be operating under the assumption that code runs on paper, rather than computers.
19:28:26 <palk> the other two sentences are correct for particular microarchitectures, but not true generally
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19:29:59 <palk> klange: if your statement is directed at me, then I proclaim it absurd
19:30:53 <palk> doug16k: To the best of my ability, I have only provided facts; your interpretation is not of my concern
19:31:09 <doug16k> palk, I was citing the stdint.h declaration verbatim when I said `unsigned long int`, for the last time, I know that you can't assume the widths of types, but I know the representation of unsigned long int this particular toolchain is using in this particular architecture
19:31:26 <Mutabah> [citation needed] (on all comments)
19:34:55 <palk> doug16k: the actual stdint.h declaration (i.e., the C99 standard) declares that the `unsigned long int` is implemented to conform with binary arithmetic modulo at least 2^32
19:35:12 <doug16k> palk, more language lawyer crap?
19:35:51 <doug16k> are you going to tell me that char isn't 8 bits next?
19:35:54 <palk> doug16k: if it is "crap" to you, then I pity whatever code you have thus far created
19:36:31 <palk> I am going to tell you that char is only defined to include the integer range 0 through 127
19:37:19 <palk> as on particular implementations, a char might be a signed char (minimum range -127 to 127) or an unsigned char (minimum range 0 to 255)
19:37:45 <Mutabah> palk: That may be true, BUT...
19:37:55 <Mutabah> it's _implementation_ defined
19:38:07 <Mutabah> So, if you know your target implementation, you can assume the range if needed
19:38:10 <palk> Mutabah: I have never said anything to the contrary
19:38:22 <Mutabah> Which I assume is what doug16k is doing
19:38:30 <doug16k> I am not doing that
19:38:33 <palk> Mutabah: that was my point this whole time
19:38:41 <palk> but thank you for agreeing with me
19:38:44 <doug16k> I cited what ONE PARTICULAR ARCHITECTURE'S stdint.h said, verbatim
19:39:25 <palk> doug16k: and the only thing I have said is that "ONE PARTICULAR [IMPLEMENTATION]" should not be mistaken for gospel
19:39:34 <doug16k> palk, stop
19:39:55 <palk> with pleasure
19:39:57 <palk> good day
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19:40:50 <doug16k> you try to talk about reality in the context of an actual cross compiler you are using and you get hypothetical BS lessons from a condescending language lawyer
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19:41:19 <Mutabah> Well, you maybe failed to properly state that you were referring to a particular implementation
19:41:23 <Mutabah> not the language definition
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19:42:23 <Mutabah> because if you're saying "on all x86_64, `unsigned long` is 64-bit, that's wrong
19:42:54 <Mutabah> (Iirc windows and linux use different conventions)
19:43:03 <doug16k> he knew he was just being an ass. if I thought I could assume that a certain thing (like long) was always 64 bits, why would I even look at int_fast16_t ?
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21:34:09 <qeos> guyz, where can download Nextstep sources?
21:35:05 <klange> What exactly do you have in mind?
21:36:58 <qeos> I whant to see how they made object system..
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21:37:53 <klange> I suggest you look at GNUstep.
21:39:02 <qeos> hm maybe.. thnx
21:39:03 <klange> It's an open-source reimplementation of the same concepts and meant to be compatible with OpenStep, which is the followup to NeXTSTEP. The trouble with trying to find NeXTSTEP resources that would help you understand how they actually did things is that the bulk of NeXTSTEP was closed source.
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