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#osdev2 = #osdev @ Libera from 23may2021 to present
#osdev @ OPN/FreeNode from 3apr2001 to 23may2021
all other channels are on OPN/FreeNode from 2004 to present
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01:09:19 <doug16k> seen this before? -> make[1]: write error: stdout
01:10:08 <doug16k> it's at the end after everything is finished
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01:11:15 <Mutabah> Linux or your OS?
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01:13:03 <doug16k> linux
01:13:35 <doug16k> only in make -j16. sequential make doesn't do it
01:13:44 <doug16k> it is blasting stdout, but still
01:14:21 <klange> does it do it reliably? can you try adding some verbosity flags?
01:15:15 <doug16k> yeah pretty reliably, what flag? just --debug=v ?
01:15:18 <klange> speaking of make, anyone know how to make it not complain about dangling symlinks? I have a blanket rule that rebuilds my ramdisk images with a dependency on "everything in the directory", but that catches dangling symlinks as unbuilt targets ;-;
01:15:45 <klange> I'd start with `b` and work your way up, but sure.
01:16:16 <doug16k> klange, you looked at --trace output already? it might be saying why it is building that and it might not be that
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01:16:57 <doug16k> s/be saying/say/
01:17:10 <klange> I know why it wants to build it, and I know why it thinks it's unbuilt.
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01:18:13 <klange> maybe i can make the `find` ignore symlinks...
01:18:30 <klange> I wanted something on the Make side, though...
01:18:36 <doug16k> tried --check-symlink-times ?
01:19:01 <doug16k> -L is brief version
01:19:34 <doug16k> oh you mean in the makefile. idk
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01:20:28 <klange> I'm not sure --check-symlink-times is relevant to the dangling part, as it still checks the target, which doesn't exist.
01:20:37 <klange> Filtering it out from the target list seems to be the only option.
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01:21:21 <doug16k> would deleting all the dangling symlinks be viable?
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01:21:51 <doug16k> so it will start working correctly after it hits that rule once
01:21:54 <klange> That's what I've done thus far, but I don't really want to.
01:22:29 <klange> It's not something made by the makefile, it's a gitignored directory full of stuff installed by other scripts
01:23:27 <doug16k> would it be horrible to make them hard links? they'll never be dangling then
01:23:49 <doug16k> assuming none are directories anyway
01:23:54 <klange> Not what I want to do :) also not entirely sure my tools would handle that correctly :)
01:24:12 <klange> Meh, I'll just get the target generator to drop them...
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01:31:35 <doug16k> someone else ran into it (spurious write error) 4 years ago -> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-make/2014-07/msg00036.html workaround is --output-sync=target
01:31:36 <bslsk05> lists.gnu.org: Re: Spurious "write error" on parallel builds
01:33:19 <doug16k> enabling --debug=b made it intermittent btw
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01:37:55 <Ameisen> "Message not available"
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06:20:54 <nastaki> so brumous pumper, we call those udupump in estonian, that is a highly clueless individual, basically in ones own mind a highly important person, whos daily basis activity is to pump brumous -- it's a pretty useless thing to do, since the result is seeing less what to do, but most of the time they are so happy to do something , that they hardly comprehend the usefullness
06:28:50 <nastaki> meil on konspiratiivne kothusüsteem ja arstide kollektiiv täis neid udupumajaid ehk teisisõnu aborthälvikuid, kelle süsteemne töö on intellekte tappa (sealjuures ebaõnnestunult mingitel juhtudel) ja/ning seega endale otsaette kirjutada, et olen kõndiv laip, olen elav surnu
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06:41:04 <Mutabah> nastaki: I'd ask you to use english, but if you'd said that in english I'd have just kicked you
06:41:28 <Mutabah> [MisbehavingOS]: Is that just an interesting nickname, or aer you about to ask a question? :)
06:42:24 <[MisbehavingOS]> Hey, nah really just joined for the feel...
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06:46:15 <glauxosdever> <nastaki> almost seems like the troubles will never end, if i can somehow regain my reputation of not being abusive and abrasive in the future, it is hard my mind plays tricks in anger modes, but might be still possible after all if i gain some stability in my life, maybe some that got hurt will not forgive me but anyhow its their choice
06:46:32 <glauxosdever> Does your mind play tricks in anger mode currently maybe?
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06:52:26 <glauxosdever> Getting back to my bootloader now, after doing some side-projects in the meanwhile
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07:45:38 <nastaki> glauxosdever: sure! i am watching a game and have been occupied, just some interesting thoughts, what they arranged to me impressive crank stuff, i probably will be angry until the end of time even if one in the list escapes and still lives on, but to be frank all of those are estonian cranks, not even a single russian so to speak
07:46:16 <nastaki> i translated the udupumpaja to english, it's an interesting term, funny and stuff
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08:16:13 <nastaki> ouh now brazil leads, so far everything is messed up, but i go to work, i did shake my head when i escaped to australia back times, where i had a good stay, then discovered i need to learn using my money that was inherited, and perhaps when i finish now , i probably am convicted fellon by that time, cause i do whatever it takes to kill them all off
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12:03:48 <kingoffrance> itd be funny to make a distro that consisted of crosscompilers fo everyone elses os. i already vaguely do this for "commercial" "mainstream" OS. itd be funny if someone just maintained this for all the osdev projects
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12:23:31 <_mjg_> kingoffrance: nice one
12:23:49 <_mjg_> how about a boot loader which picks the os for you
12:23:56 <_mjg_> you don't like the choice of the day? tough
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12:27:53 <kingoffrance> yes, i vaguely have to do that too, for all my
12:28:16 <kingoffrance> "disk images". i wouldnt expect standardized packages or even "compile this OS" ... but enough of a toolchain to do "hello world" would be interesting
12:28:54 <kingoffrance> i may vaguely inch towards that, but dont wait up ....i have lots of old gcc/binutils built for various things
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12:29:42 <_mjg_> now that you mention it most oses probably already compile on linux or windows
12:29:56 <_mjg_> so the task is much less interesting
12:30:00 <kingoffrance> i think 99% of osdev is probably gcc/binutils, MAYBE clang.
12:30:12 <_mjg_> and gmake
12:30:15 <kingoffrance> and maybe 50-60% are "unixlike" probably
12:30:34 <kingoffrance> and probably 80% is x86 or x86_64, (these numbes pulled out of thin air, just my perceptions)
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12:31:56 <_mjg_> i wouldl expect more unix like
12:31:59 <_mjg_> and way more x86
12:32:36 <_mjg_> there are not that many resources how to do anything else from scratch, so i highly doubt anyyone doing their first os goes for arm/$whatever
12:32:56 <_mjg_> also most systems don't get past hello world, so there is that
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12:57:00 <glauxosdever> What about a compiler that doesn't need to be rebuilt for every target (and a "target options/settings" file is supplied instead)?
12:57:46 <_mjg_> what would be funny
12:57:55 <_mjg_> is an os which can run binaries from a multitude of other systems
12:58:08 <_mjg_> probably just churn for unix-like wannabies
12:58:10 <glauxosdever> (Note: I was actually not joking..)
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13:01:28 <glauxosdever> Why should you need to rebuild the compiler for freestanding i386, rebuild for freestanding x86_64, rebuild for your OS, rebuild for his OS, rebuild for her OS, etc? When everything that changes could instead be configurable?
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13:04:44 <glauxosdever> (Ok, when adding support for another CPU architecture, the compiler has to be patched and thus rebuilt -- in other cases, it shouldn't be needed)
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13:19:52 <froggey> glauxosdever: rustc supports this and it seems to work well, but most systems (especially hobby OSes) are similar enough that the changes to the compiler are minimal anyway
13:20:49 <_mjg_> have you guys seen unleashed os?
13:21:11 <_mjg_> it's a new illumos fork http://unleashed-os.org
13:21:13 <bslsk05> unleashed-os.org: The Unleashed Operating System
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13:29:26 <glauxosdever> froggey: I wasn't aware of this. But if it works, then it's cool :-)
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17:14:37 <kingoffrance> glauxosdev left, but funny enough there is an old PC assembler that claimed iwth "macros" you could target any cpu
17:15:49 <kingoffrance> like 1988. he claimed in his "README" "you should hire me, because i charge more, but most pc software people just write quick unmaintainable one-off assemblers"
17:16:23 <kingoffrance> with gcc youd basically want to load the "machine descriptions" etc. at run-time from some serialized text format
17:16:46 <kingoffrance> youd just point it at a directory of config files using env. var perhaps
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17:20:50 <kingoffrance> Peter Verhas 1991 https://www.google.com/search?q=pcmac+universal+macro+assembler apparently there is a "uxasm" too
17:20:54 <bslsk05> www.google.com: pcmac universal macro assembler - Google Search
17:21:49 <kingoffrance> i have a demo, no source, but says it was also runnable on unix and vms
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17:22:47 <s_gautam> i'm IRCing from a Windows 3 16-bit mIRC
17:23:05 <klange> yawn
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17:23:46 <klange-toaru> i'm IRCing from my OS :P but I do that a lot so it's also kinda boring
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17:24:00 <klange-toaru> this irc client is kinda terrible
17:24:13 <klange> but it works well enough
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17:25:12 <klange> oh right i need to get my screenshot functionality working again... old one used Cairo to dump a png, guess I'll want to just write a bitmap myself this time around
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17:28:35 <kingoffrance> s_gautam: yeah yeah, but are you running native or in an emulator?
17:29:56 <klange> i'm more impressed you got working NIC drivers for that
17:31:06 <klange> That's pretty squarely in the era of dial up and no on-board NICs for me - hell, it's pre-win-modem days, where your modem wasn't just a bloody sound card
17:32:58 <s_gautam> klange, mIRC 16-bit isn't DOS actually
17:33:01 <s_gautam> it relies on WINSOCK
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17:34:23 <s_gautam> i'm not completely being honest, I'm running it "natively" under Windows XP, it definitely seems so. The same executable runs under DOSBox (with WfW 3.11) and I'm sure I downloaded the 16-bit version
17:34:44 <klange> WINSOCK isn't a driver, you still need a NIC underneath it.
17:34:53 <s_gautam> it's an API, right?
17:35:11 <kingoffrance> i can actually run nt3 or so on my pentium3-ish laptops, but they tend to not like > 512 or 128 mb ram
17:36:07 <klange> winsock is basically the underlying tcp/ip API at a time when vendors had been pushing their own network programming interfaces.
17:36:58 <s_gautam> do y'all use mIRC
17:37:17 <s_gautam> I mean I'm able to read 5-6 channels at once with their "every channel is a tiny window"
17:37:26 <klange> I use irssi.
17:37:35 <klange> Why would I use a proprietary Windows IRC client?
17:37:59 <s_gautam> huh didn't know mIRC was Windows only
17:38:46 <klange> Why would I *pay* for an IRC client? I can IRC on the wire myself, it's that simple of a protocol, just need to remember to send PONGs ever few minutes.
17:39:40 <s_gautam> the best part about using a Windows 3.11 client is that apparently this one doesn't come with a trial limitation
17:40:12 <s_gautam> so much has changed in the web world, IRC still remains the same it seems
17:40:36 <klange> That's the great thing about IRC.
17:40:37 <s_gautam> google doesn't even open in IE4 reportedly
17:41:12 <klange> All these other shitty chat services coming and going, but IRC still works the same as it ever did. This is kinda why I'm opposed to the IRCv3 efforts - they don't really add anything useful, they just break old clients needlessly.
17:41:30 <s_gautam> uhh
17:41:34 <s_gautam> what about IRCv2?
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17:42:00 <klange> ircv2 isn't a thing
17:42:18 <s_gautam> actually, i used IRCCloud for a bit and I think they've tried to ensure compatibility and add a few interesting features like having a picture as well as a mini bouncer in the client itself
17:42:20 <s_gautam> hmm
17:42:44 <s_gautam> i don't think there should be a problem introducing new features as long as there's backwards compat
17:43:10 <klange> ircv3 disables every part of IRC by deffault
17:43:15 <klange> you have to opt in to everything but messages
17:43:29 <klange> this breaks old clients by default
17:43:50 <klange> you need to add a bunch of raw commands to your startup scripts just to get basic functionality working again.
17:44:01 <klange> (ircv3 clients are supposed to request these "features" on their own)
17:45:53 <klange> It's also going to standardize SASL which is going to kill irc's human wire usability
17:46:01 <kingoffrance> thats not good. user pictures + "cloud" == ms comic chat just a matter of time until someone provides a "storyboard comic bubble' plugin
17:47:19 <klange> but maybe i'm just being a grumpy old man
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17:53:03 <kingoffrance> if i ever am drunk enough to mangle my source files to 8+3 (perhaps hash/checksum) then you can be my beta tester s_gautum "compiles under win3"
17:53:22 <kingoffrance> probably have to mangle function names + vars too
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17:56:05 <doug16k> I'm happy with irc but it's unfortunate that you can't correct mistakes for 15 seconds or something. is there really still nothing in the protocol for sending corrections?
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17:56:54 <Mutabah> *foo?
17:57:06 <Mutabah> I.e. conventions where you send a new message that corrects your previous one?
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17:57:31 <doug16k> yeah, that or the regex thing, but I mean one that actually updates the message
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17:58:34 <Mutabah> Maybe an IRCv3 extension could add a CTCP message to edit the last sent message
17:58:42 <Mutabah> but it's up to the client to actually do the edit
17:59:39 <doug16k> yes, exactly
18:01:23 <doug16k> usually it doesn't matter but it's frustrating when you are explaining something to someone and you have one word wrong that adds a ton of confusion
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18:09:06 <Mutabah> Yeah, buuut... that's probably where you'd want a new message to clarify/re-state
18:09:25 <klange> The IRC protocol, as it exists, assumes that once a message has been sent, it's sent, and it may have been written out to a printer for all you know.
18:09:37 <Mutabah> Yeah
18:09:55 <Mutabah> Then again, a standardised edit format would be nice-ish
18:10:14 <klange> As much as IRC postdates them, this makes it really easy to write clients for old terminals that had static lines :)
18:10:18 <klange> static status lines*
18:10:26 <Mutabah> Even if a client could choose to render it as < Nick*1> [updated content]
18:11:00 <Mutabah> Hmm... I should get my network stack working and hack up an IRC client :)
18:11:19 <klange> We had a channel a while back for testing them, #osdevdogfood or something like that.
18:11:24 <klange> might have had a dash in the middle
18:11:30 <Mutabah> Ooh, I recently fixed a silly bug with keyboard handling - I was triggering key-fire events on keyup, which broke fast typing
18:11:37 <Mutabah> It had a dash
18:14:44 <doug16k> what does the 8-bit apic id say in cpuid[1].ebx[31:24] when the x2apic id > 0xFF? the low 8 bits of the apic id?
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18:17:02 <rain1> fuck IRC3
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18:20:34 <doug16k> maybe I shouldn't care what that apic id field says. I'll have to properly try leaf 7 and fall back to leaf 1
18:20:57 <doug16k> I'm trying to get a rough indication of the current cpu for my function trace, very early on
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18:21:28 <chrisf> sigh, i'd just got my head around the basic apic spec
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18:21:38 <doug16k> early on = in the same screenful of the first instruction of the kernel :D
18:22:01 <chrisf> doug16k: tldr of what's interesting in xapic, x2apic?
18:22:11 <Mutabah> doug16k: I was about to ask :)
18:22:53 <doug16k> it's interesting that intel has no foresight whatsoever and they allot inadequate fields for everything, so they have to make a huge mess of things
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18:25:22 <chrisf> oh, configuration all moves into msrs?
18:25:30 <doug16k> example: when hyperthreading was introduced, they used ONE bit to indicate it, squeezed in between other fields. it never occurred to them in the slightest that maybe someday there would be more than one bit to indicate SMT processor count
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18:25:52 <doug16k> chrisf, x2apic has 32 bit apic ids, so it allows for very high cpu count, and yes, you access it with rdmsr/wrmsr instead of MMIO
18:26:17 <Elronnd> I've been reading the wiki, and I can't tell, how if I make my own bootloader do I turn it into a bootable image?
18:26:30 <Elronnd> I've been using grub with grub-mkrescue, but making a bootloader sounds fun
18:27:30 <klange> Depends on what kind of bootloader you're making - hard disk, floppy, no-emulation CD, EFI, etc.
18:28:53 <Elronnd> ahhh
18:28:56 <Elronnd> hard disc, I think
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18:30:52 <doug16k> Elronnd, a bootloader is pretty much a mini-kernel, once you support booting lots of different ways. you have the same concept of abstracting I/O, memory management, screen output, user input, multiple filesystems, etc
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18:32:06 <Elronnd> doug16k: yeah but like
18:32:15 <Elronnd> how do I turn my assembly file into something I Can boot with, say, qemu
18:32:24 <doug16k> depends!
18:32:25 <klange> Start with https://wiki.osdev.org/MBR
18:32:26 <bslsk05> wiki.osdev.org: MBR (x86) - OSDev Wiki
18:32:31 <klange> doug16k: I said that already!
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18:32:38 <Elronnd> ok
18:32:40 <doug16k> klange, I reiterated :)
18:33:19 <Elronnd> I thought gpt is supposed to be newer and fancier than MBR though?
18:34:02 <doug16k> Elronnd, general idea for BIOS hard disk boot is, you have 448 bytes of space for code, so in there, you have the code to load the rest of the bootloader (usually this is called "stage 1"). then, that second chunk of the bootloader loads the actual kernel
18:34:12 <palk_> it is both, but it is also more complicated and possibly unnecessary depending on your design goals
18:34:17 <doug16k> that second bit is usually called stage 2
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18:35:31 <chrisf> efi >> legacy boot nonsense
18:35:47 <palk> by the way, there are very good reasons to not write your own bootloader, but to instead use (e.g.,) grub
18:35:50 <doug16k> if you have filesystem support, what you really should be doing is making a volume boot sector bootloader. the MBR loads the first sector of the active partition and jumps into that
18:36:26 <Elronnd> palk: like what?
18:36:26 <klange> el torito, baby
18:36:40 <Elronnd> doug16k: wazzat?
18:36:42 <klange> Elronnd: boot loaders are... a very x86-specific backwards compatibility hack
18:36:59 <klange> Elronnd: they're basically small operating systems in themselves, so you end up duplicating a lot of effort to build something to fit an outdated model
18:37:01 <Mutabah> s/loaders/sectors/
18:37:11 <doug16k> Elronnd, if you do it by making an MBR, how can you dual boot? your OS can't coexist with another OS
18:37:12 <Mutabah> Actually, strike that - yes
18:37:16 <Elronnd> klange: yeah but they sound fascinating
18:37:18 <klange> Elronnd: EFI makes things a bit better, you're just writing an application against an existing API to load up your kernel...
18:37:29 <Elronnd> hmmm could also do that
18:37:35 <Elronnd> doug16k: I am not interested in dual-booting
18:37:43 <doug16k> Elronnd, yet
18:37:57 <Elronnd> or ever
18:38:03 <Elronnd> I'm writing something that's similar to includeos
18:38:10 <doug16k> clairvoyant one here. do you play stocks? :P
18:38:11 <Elronnd> so I doubt there'll ever be call for dual-booting
18:38:34 <klange> How far are you with your OS?
18:38:37 <Elronnd> doug16k: https://xkcd.com/808/
18:38:37 <bslsk05> xkcd - The Economic Argument
18:38:49 <Elronnd> klange: nil
18:39:01 <klange> If you want to build a bootloader, I think you should wait until you have your OS to a solid functional state and then look into it to "complete the puzzle".
18:39:16 <Elronnd> I started writing some simple code in d (the language it'll be written in) but realised I should write the bootstrap code in c and then call into d
18:39:19 <Elronnd> ok
18:39:29 <klange> Starting with a bootloader, especially a traditional x86 BIOS disk loader, is a great way to get burned out quickly by the stupid of x86 backwards compatibility.
18:40:18 <klange> If you have a working OS you've been booting with Grub and you want to get that last piece of the puzzle out of the way so you can have something that is truly 100% yours, just for the sake of completion, that's a different story.
18:40:27 <palk> Elronnd: mostly because they're a waste of time, but also because they're only lightly standardized, have many "quirks" that you just have to know about through experience, and don't actually add any value to the rest of the system (which will init itself and the rest of the system after taking over from the bootloader)
18:41:02 <Elronnd> klange: well, if I want it *all* my own then I might as well make a custom architecture and my own language
18:42:01 <doug16k> you asked about making your own bootloader, why strawman responses?
18:42:32 <Elronnd> point taken
18:42:59 <Elronnd> I changed my mind about making my own bootloader (at least for now) and was making light of that
18:43:04 <klange> That's a good idea, go buy an FPGA.
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18:43:30 <doug16k> I'm responding because I made a bootloader from day 1 and it supports hard disk, network, and CD boot with either BIOS or EFI
18:43:40 <palk> Elronnd: you should really check out the wiki; most of this stuff is on there. Start here: https://wiki.osdev.org/Boot_Sequence
18:43:41 <bslsk05> wiki.osdev.org: Boot Sequence - OSDev Wiki
18:43:52 <doug16k> the whole bootloader code is almost completely different now than it was at first
18:44:03 <Elronnd> ok
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18:46:09 <klange> doug16k is also kinda insane and went from 0 to 60 faster than any OS I've seen come throguh this channel; I wonder if doug16k has a day job or if he just spends every waking hour working on his OS :)
18:46:15 <klange> doug16k: <3
18:46:27 <doug16k> implementing your own bootloader is almost entirely an intellectual/educational exercise. grub is good enough if you just want to work on your OS
18:47:23 <doug16k> I work from home and have quite a bit of free time between sessions. I'm also older than your average OS dev guy, I'm @ 41 now and I started programming at 15 :P
18:47:25 <klange> I still think that starting with bootloaders is a big turnoff for people, and we'd get many more "successful" projects in this community if people didn't feel so inclined to start there.
18:48:00 <doug16k> well, started programming @ 12, by the time I was 15 I wasn't clueless :P
18:48:43 * Elronnd may or may not *be* 15
18:48:48 <CompanionCube> klange: especially x86, with the high levels of accreted backwards compat
18:48:51 <klange> I picked up a few things when I was 10, but it was a different era what with the Internet making things more accessible than the ol' BASIC micros.
18:49:28 <Mutabah> Elronnd: :) Everyone starts sometime
18:50:39 <CompanionCube> Elronnd: so do you have a vision for your OS?
18:51:38 <Elronnd> CompanionCube: pretty much includeos but for d instead of c++
18:52:39 <CompanionCube> ah, definitely not a conventional OS then :)
18:54:07 <kingoffrance> Elronnd: i like that xkcd, but like x86, "legacy" cruft abounds re: "Curses" and "tarot" "sun day" "moon day" playing cards (minus the horse)
18:54:19 <CompanionCube> though why would you want a special bootloader for a unikernel?
18:54:49 <klange> unikernels are good things for VMs/hypervisors, no need for a custom bootloader when the hypervisor supports better methods of loading :)
18:54:56 <Elronnd> because I'm making it first for fun and second for fun-ctionality
18:55:25 <kingoffrance> 52 cards deck (4x13, a-10, jqk == 13) x 7 days of week == 364 (year)
18:56:22 <Mutabah> kingoffrance: ... how is that anywhere near on-topic? Can you please refrain from making off-topic comments like that while there's on-topic discussion?
18:56:57 <kingoffrance> well, point is legacy stuff survives centuries. people just dont recognize it.
18:57:51 <kingoffrance> show me a os supporting a non-superstitious calendar. ill wait.
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18:58:15 <CompanionCube> does it count if an OS has no concept of calendars? :p
18:59:18 <klange> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 38th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3184
18:59:19 <Mutabah> CompanionCube: yes :)
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19:02:26 <kingoffrance> the only time ive seen someone break was nasa, they needed mars time, but they just wrote a java app.
19:02:57 <kingoffrance> they wouldnt dare try to get a "modern" OS to run on mars time
19:03:35 <doug16k> double stardate_from_epoch_time(time_t t);
19:03:52 <doug16k> you must #define __TREKKIE before including the header :P
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19:05:43 <klange> Unfortunately, the time systems we use are kinda attached to the Gregorian calendar, though the claim that the Gregorian calendar is "superstitious" is silly. It's just named after some old stuff, some of which was superstitious, but it's still mostly based on things that are as valid as anything else.
19:05:53 <klange> Remember metric time?
19:05:57 <doug16k> kidding, of course, but I wonder if anyone has implemented stardates
19:06:26 <klange> There are multiple systems for stardates, and they aren't very consistent.
19:06:33 <klange> In TOS they were kinda just throwaway numbers.
19:06:41 <klange> In TNG they tried to put a sensible system behind them.
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19:08:10 <CompanionCube> obviously the solution is to use swatch internet time or 64-bit unix-time
19:09:14 <klange> Days are useful things. Weeks are okay, but arbitrary. Months are ostensibly based on the moon, but also still arbitrary. Years are useful because season changes can be mapped to them.
19:09:28 <klange> Hours? Those we could decimalize; minutes, seconds.
19:09:48 <klange> But 60 is a good divisor, gets you 1/4ths and 1/3rds easily...
19:10:08 <klange> but it's not up to os developers to change time :P
19:10:53 <klange> universal convention trumps sensibility anyway
19:11:10 <klange> We're lucky we've managed to get basically the entire planet on the same system of dates and times.
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19:11:35 <CompanionCube> (and even then it's a tangled mess)
19:14:00 <klange> If you want to push for a adoption of a sensible system, get the Americans (and Brits, lookin' at you with your miles on roads) to metricize.
19:14:22 <klange> Don't try to get rid of July and Tuesday or 24 hours.
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19:31:17 <doug16k> nice, qemu accepted my fix of `info tlb` and `info mem` into the staging tree. soon, info tlb and info mem will show properly sign extended linear addresses, ffffA00000000000 instead of 0000A00000000000. also supports LA52
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19:32:10 <doug16k> s/A/a/
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19:32:54 <doug16k> s/52/57/
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19:52:42 <buhman> I'm reading my chip's datasheet for what seems like a rather complicated core clock initialization procedure. Do chips generally require a PLL for "high" frequencies? (>100MHz in this case)
19:55:38 <buhman> also the datasheet doesn't explain what happens if you connect the core clock directly to the crystal, or why that's a terrible idea, apparently.
19:57:15 <Mutabah> Probably depends on the crystal, but quite often the crystal's output is multiplied/divided to give the core clock
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20:03:14 <buhman> Mutabah: huh, yeah; I didn't realize my board only had a 12MHz crystal
20:03:48 <buhman> is that more desirable than a >>100MHz crystal?
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20:06:11 <Mutabah> It's cheaper
20:09:03 <doug16k> with high frequencies, parasitic inductances and capacitances on the board have a huge effect, so it's common to have a low frequency on the board and PLL it up in the CPU, where those parasitics are next to zero
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20:43:40 <klange> I think I grok deflate reasonably well, digging through `puff` to really understand the bit-level format, but should be able to hack together a working decoder soon enough
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20:47:12 <buhman> doug16k: why is the crystal external at all then?
20:47:41 <promach> For https://github.com/VectorBlox/mxp/issues/3#issuecomment-402003110 , what do you guys understand by "it breaks up the 1D vector into smaller pieces and treats them as a 2D matrix" ?
20:47:43 <bslsk05> github.com: Compilation for MXP programs in linux · Issue #3 · VectorBlox/mxp · GitHub
20:51:50 <doug16k> buhman, because you can't make a crystal by doping semiconductor, it must be cut from quartz
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22:14:43 <Elronnd> klange: and get the canadians to be bloody consistent. We currently have C on our thermostats but F on our ovens
22:15:01 <Elronnd> at the grocery store some stuff is in kilos and others in pounds
22:15:14 <Elronnd> scanners measure in dpi but cm is the general unit of length
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22:18:24 <doug16k> Elronnd, I'm canadian, and my response to that is: sorry
22:18:35 <klange> The best is how inches are everywhere in monitor sizing.
22:18:39 <klange> Even here in Japan.
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22:21:14 <klange> DPI continues because the printing industries still use all their special units, and inches are in that set.
22:23:10 <mischief> sorry eh what's that all aboot
22:24:34 <doug16k> the Apollo navigation computer did all of its calculations in metric, but converted the results to 'murican for display
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23:59:59 --- log: ended osdev/18.07.02