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#osdev2 = #osdev @ Libera from 23may2021 to present

#osdev @ OPN/FreeNode from 3apr2001 to 23may2021

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Sunday, 9 January 2022

00:07:00 <bauen1> zid: spectre is not a bug, it's a feature (in the worst way possible)
00:07:00 <zid> why would I think it was a bug
00:07:00 <zid> PUSe is built on it
00:11:00 <newpy> so the actual barebones tutorial elf works in qemu
00:12:00 <newpy> but qemu-system-i386 -cdrom myos.iso doesn't work for me
00:14:00 <klange> Can you upload that ISO somewhere?
00:14:00 <newpy> sure, one sec
00:14:00 <newpy>
00:14:00 <bslsk05> ​ Download |
00:16:00 <klange> I'm not sure how you made this ISO but there's nothing but a grub.cfg on it.
00:17:00 <klange> Grub itself isn't there, your kernel image isn't there... something's gone wrong.
00:18:00 <newpy> huh
00:20:00 <newpy> I have isodir/boot/grub/grub.cfg, isodir/boot/myos.bin, and used `grub-mkrescue --xorriso=/.../xorriso -o myos.iso isodir
00:21:00 <klange> Oh I do actually see the kernel binary, sorry, but grub itself is missing. I think mkrescue is confused about what build of grub to install - you may need additional grub-related packages.
00:21:00 <heat> newpy, what grub2 packages do you have installed? + whats your distro
00:22:00 <newpy> heat, it's a minimal ubuntu docker image
00:22:00 <newpy> I did `apt install grub-common`
00:22:00 <klange> That only installs the tools, we'll need grub-pc-bin I think to get the files for mkrescue
00:22:00 <newpy> oh weird
00:23:00 <newpy> it said successful so I thought it worked
00:23:00 <newpy>
00:23:00 <bslsk05> ​ # grub-mkrescue --xorriso=/root/xorriso-1.5.4/xorriso/xorriso -o myos.iso isodir -
00:23:00 <klange> You may want to add `-d /usr/lib/grub/i386-pc` as well
00:24:00 <newpy> ok I'll try
00:24:00 <clever> it should print "installing grub for platform pc" i think it was?
00:24:00 <clever> and at least for non-iso installs, youll then get a folder like this:
00:24:00 <clever> [root@amd-nixos:~]# ls -ltrh /boot/grub/i386-pc/
00:25:00 <clever> which contains the .mod for every module in grub
00:25:00 <klange> "xorriso : NOTE : Copying to System Area: 512 bytes from file '/usr/lib/grub/i386-pc/boot_hybrid.img'
00:25:00 <klange> no system area = no bootable disk
00:27:00 <clever> i think there was 3 different ways an iso can boot? but i can only remember 2 of them
00:27:00 <clever> one is to just have a 1.44mb disk image, and the bios will emulate it into a floppy and boot from it like a normal floppy boots
00:27:00 <gog> el torito, floppy emulation and uhhhh
00:27:00 <gog> uefi?
00:27:00 <newpy> klange, grub-mkrescue: error: /usr/lib/grub/i386-pc/ doesn't exist. Please specify --target or --directory.
00:27:00 <clever> another is to just have a blob that the bios loads into ram, and jumps into, and its your job to deal with the cdrom from there
00:27:00 <klange> newpy: Did you install that grub-pc-bin package?
00:27:00 <clever> gog: oh yeah, and uefi is a recent addition
00:28:00 <newpy> klange, oh forgot
00:29:00 <newpy> klange, that worked
00:29:00 <klange> \o/
00:29:00 <newpy> qemu loaded grub, I selected myos, and it printed the welcome
00:30:00 <newpy> could you explain what exactly I just did though? :D
00:30:00 <klange> Grub's tools are not meant for what we use them for, hence why that tool is called 'mkrescue' - it's not for making bootable CDs from scratch, it's for building a rescue CD for the current running system.
00:31:00 <klange> Your Docker image doesn't _have_ grub, so it doesn't know what the heck to put on such a CD.
00:31:00 <klange> grub-pc-bin contains the files that would be installed for a normal BIOS installation of GRUB. There's another package for EFI installations.
00:32:00 <newpy> ah ok
00:32:00 <newpy> so it was reporting success b/c what we're doing is out of spec and it was just doing the bestit could
00:32:00 <klange> grub-mkrescue is basically a overgrown shell script rewritten in C
00:33:00 <newpy> I was just confused why it reported success here without grub-pc-bin:
00:33:00 <newpy> thought maybe it would print an error if there were missing files
00:33:00 <klange> That goes back to your Docker image not having grub. grub-mkrescue looked at the existing grub config, found that it did nothing, and so it successfully duplicated that.
00:34:00 <heat> why are you giving it a xorriso
00:34:00 <newpy> ooohhh I see
00:34:00 <newpy> it literally looks at the current OS's grub
00:34:00 <heat> why are you doing this in a container
00:34:00 <heat> weren't you using WSL
00:34:00 <newpy> heat, yea I am in WSL
00:34:00 <newpy> I use this env for school, can't afford to break it right now
00:34:00 <newpy> hence a container
00:34:00 <heat> you're not breaking anything
00:35:00 <klange> Were you doing anything else, I would agree with heat's line of questioning, but this is grub stuff...
00:35:00 <heat> WSL doesn't use grub
00:35:00 <heat> it uses nothing, just hypervisor magic
00:35:00 <newpy> fair enough, but I don't know what might break stuff and what wouldn't
00:36:00 <newpy> prof is really strict on extensions, he'd just fail me
00:36:00 <clever> `I use this env for school`, newpy: and thats why i use nix, so every env is isolated, and they cant break eachother, while also fixing everything with docker
00:36:00 <newpy> Honestly I might just get another rig so I can have a "clean" school env
00:36:00 <clever> meant to quote the `can't afford to break it right now` half, oops
00:37:00 <klange> Alternatively, you know you can set up multiple WSL environments...
00:38:00 <newpy> klange, is that better than just using docker containers?
00:39:00 <heat> it's cleaner
00:39:00 <newpy> ah I see
00:39:00 <newpy> I'll set that up tomorrow
00:40:00 <heat> you're not doing lightweight virtualization on top of virtualization
00:40:00 <newpy> true
00:40:00 <newpy> although I'm using docker desktop on windows which is somehow integrated with WSL
00:40:00 <heat> oh doesn't docker on windows use virtualization?
00:41:00 <newpy> when I installed it said it had WSL2 integration
00:41:00 <newpy> but I'm not sure what it's actually doing
00:41:00 <clever> last i heard, it was just linux docker in a virtual machine
00:41:00 <heat> yes it might use a separate wsl vm
00:41:00 <clever> but WSL2 is pretty much a linux virtual machine
00:41:00 <clever> so they may be piggy-backing off that
04:06:00 <junon> (they are)
04:15:00 <moon-child> wsl2 makes me really sad
04:15:00 <moon-child> from a business perspective, it absolutely makes sense
04:16:00 <moon-child> but--it's not going to make me want to use windows anyway, and if I _were_ to use windows, I know how to run a vm
04:16:00 <moon-child> and wsl is a lot more technically interesting
05:00:00 <zid> moon-child: ah yes but think of all the gpu cloud space programs that can be written on windows but using comfortable environments now
05:01:00 <zid> tying your cloud datacenter to buying windows licences
07:11:00 <junon> I'm still on wsl1, I really hate that windows just gave up on the vision.
07:12:00 <junon> I refuse to go to wsl2. I'll just use vmware to do that if need be.
07:12:00 <junon> I'm still salty that Microsoft ignored a local privilege escalation I reported to them and then silently patched it a few months later without ever even responding to me.
07:13:00 <junon> Related to wsl1 I mean.
08:16:00 <jason1234> Hello, we try on GRU (this not GNU, but GRU) the new OS : ORION
08:17:00 <jason1234> - what was the name of this little kernel - a Clone of LINUX made by 5 persons only, a rewrite in C, and that they have a #channel on freenode/libera with about 10-20 users?
08:29:00 <klange> That's way too vague. Sortix, maybe?
08:30:00 * kazinsal . o O ( DEVGRU/Linux )
08:31:00 <jason1234> yeahhh thanik you !
08:31:00 <jason1234> i need a little kernel like minix/linux 0.01 <-- (because linus forked minix) for x86 and arm.
08:31:00 <jason1234> ideally would be from v5 unix with sockets.
08:32:00 <jason1234> i need an OS for my TOSHIBA 220CS Satellite with 32 MB RAM
08:32:00 <klange> Linus did not fork Minix.
08:32:00 <sham1> junon: why are you insisting on WSL2
08:32:00 <sham1> Err, WSL1
08:32:00 <kazinsal> I'm quite confused at this because Linux is not a Minix fork, Sortix does not have an ARM port, and V5 Unix was never released outside of Bell Labs
08:33:00 <klange> That is a very problematic myth that even Tanenbaum has thrown his hat in the ring to eradicate.
08:33:00 <jason1234> it is said that linus stole code from tannenbaum for x86. no idea. i just quote
08:33:00 <sham1> What quote
08:34:00 <sham1> Because that'd be quite the revelation
08:34:00 <jason1234> that is the TOSHIBA 220CS Satellite with 32 MB RAM - dmesg, <-- I need a smaller OS
08:34:00 <jason1234> sham1: from a given libera #channel, speaking about os
08:34:00 <kazinsal> I have a similar archaic box and it runs Windows 95.
08:35:00 <klange> I want you to know that this is a channel for building your own operating system, not asking for one for your ancient laptop.
08:35:00 <jason1234> evil evil == Windowz
08:35:00 <sham1> jason1234: well I"m fairly sure that the #channel is wrong
08:35:00 <sham1> And since you can't even name it…
08:36:00 <jason1234> i am not so sure---anyhow... my 32 MB satellite... what can run it well and free code?
08:36:00 <sham1> FreeDOS?
08:36:00 <jason1234> netbsd 7 is bit too heavy.
08:36:00 <klange> This is not an OS recommendation channel or a support channel for old hardware.
08:38:00 <klange> And Sortix is not at all what you are looking for, it needs something newer than a Pentium and with far more RAM to be usable and is not designed for old machines.
08:38:00 <kazinsal> Your best bet is to throw that ancient machine out.
08:38:00 <klange> It belongs in a museum!
08:39:00 <sham1> Thanks Indy
08:40:00 <sham1> Although since this is an OS development channel, one could always make their own thing for the Satellite
08:41:00 <zid> yea if you're here you need to write an OS for it, them's the rules
08:43:00 <jason1234> sortie: hello, I am looking your webpage. nice nice and nice C code.
08:43:00 <jason1234> sortie: thank you for your V5 system !
08:44:00 <kazinsal> Sortix is neither a V5 nor written in C.
08:44:00 <kazinsal> I'm not sure what you're aiming for here.
08:45:00 <sham1> Being confused, it seems
08:45:00 <jason1234> serioulsy? sortix webpage should have : C and C++
08:46:00 <klange> Sortix is almost entirely C++.
08:46:00 <jason1234> beurk !!
08:46:00 <klange> It has nothing to do with V5 anything, it's based on modern POSIX standards.
08:46:00 <jason1234> C++ is ugly and it is very ugly for a kernel
08:46:00 <junon> Haha, oh boy
08:46:00 <jason1234> so next.
08:46:00 <junon> Let's not start language wars on a sunday morning
08:46:00 <jason1234> Is there a similar little kernel in C/ASM ?
08:46:00 <kazinsal> I recommend another channel. This one seems to not be your speed.
08:47:00 <junon> jason1234: the NT kernel might suit you
08:47:00 <jason1234> ideally a fork of V5 for i486?
08:47:00 <zid> MEW IS THE BEST POKEMON
08:47:00 <jason1234> is NT free today?
08:47:00 <junon> yeah sure
08:47:00 <junon> depends on the site you get it from
08:47:00 <junon> but yeah
08:47:00 <jason1234> where is the SRC code ?
08:47:00 <kazinsal> junon: We have already determined this one is a Certified OS Bigot as well as a Certified Language Bigot, so NT is right out
08:48:00 <klange> You seem to very confused about a great many things.
08:48:00 <junon> but NT is written in C
08:48:00 <jason1234> isnt there a PORT or FORK of Unix V5 for i486 CPU old notebooks?
08:48:00 <junon> jason1234:
08:48:00 <bslsk05> ​onein528/NT5.1 - Windows NT 5.0 kernel source code. (is fork /2 forks/0 stargazers)
08:48:00 <junon> very popular, used by millions, written in C and assembly
08:49:00 <junon> sounds perfect for you
08:49:00 <junon> ignore the "windows"
08:49:00 <jason1234> really?
08:49:00 <kazinsal> If anyone's lawyers ask, I didn't see that link
08:49:00 <junon> yeah sure jason1234
08:49:00 <jason1234> maybe for this ->> that is the TOSHIBA 220CS Satellite with 32 MB RAM - dmesg, <-- I need a smaller OS
08:49:00 <junon> though that's in the #nt5.0 channel, you should /part and head on over there
08:49:00 <kazinsal> You need another channel
08:49:00 <klange> We are not a support channel for old computers. Please go somewhere else.
08:50:00 <kazinsal> If you didn't do that, I was about to actually start being a dick.
08:50:00 <junon> I don't think I've ever seen you kick someone
08:50:00 <junon> I feel like I just witnessed a once in a lifetime event
08:50:00 <kazinsal> It's uncommon that people get kicked here in general.
08:50:00 <junon> exactly haha
08:50:00 <klange> Unless they're one particular repeat visitor.
08:51:00 <junon> Oh yeahhhh that guy
08:51:00 <kazinsal> You either have to be a bot, a Recurring Problem, or abusive
08:51:00 <klange> And we usually let him blabber for a bit if it's not rule-breaking.
08:51:00 <junon> I think jess k-lined him or something. I haven't seen them around in ages.
08:51:00 <klange> Not sure it's possible to k-line him, he was going through thousands of APAC jump boxes.
08:51:00 <sham1> I don't think that person was any of those, just a bit confused
08:51:00 <zid> sounded like a child
08:51:00 <kazinsal> And I'm pretty sure if anyone showed up and started being *phobic the ops would be scrambling over each other to kickban, so we effectively never have to go with the bans for abuse
08:51:00 <zid> but they typed too fluently so idk
08:52:00 <kazinsal> It's the kind of thing that just doesn't happen here because nobody rolls up into #osdev to be that kind of a shithead
08:53:00 <junon> I'm kinda reeling over their specificity about OSes but didn't know what NT was.
08:53:00 <geist> ah i missed the jason blabbing
08:53:00 <geist> yeah that one is weird. haven't seen that jason unit in a while
08:53:00 <kazinsal> For real, like, okay, I knew where we were going as soon as they reacted with hostility to a joke about my ancient Toshiba laptop running 95
08:53:00 <kazinsal> But then... that.
08:53:00 <junon> is jason a repeat offender? I've not seen the jason one around.
08:53:00 <klange> I feel terrible for mistakenly guiding him to sortix, I'll have to buy sortie his preferred chemically-spiked beverage at some point.
08:53:00 <junon> Only the one that went on and on about new world orders and whatever
08:54:00 <kazinsal> #osdev meetup? #osdev meetup.
08:54:00 <sham1> Oh no
08:54:00 <klange> In the beforetimes I would have considered it, and there have been mutterings in the past.
08:55:00 <junon> Oh man I would love to have it in Japan if it ever happened, but I realize how insanely inconvenient that would be for most people.
08:55:00 <kazinsal> One of these days we'll all coalesce in Seattle for a weekend or something, I'm sure
08:55:00 <geist> yah i once nearly met up with someone here when i was in sydney on a trip but we both flaked on each other
08:55:00 <klange> Seattle is probably the most likely place, or Vancouver if there is enough pushback from selecting a US venue.
08:55:00 <geist> i have met sortie at the office though
08:56:00 <kazinsal> Vancouver would also be great, as I wouldn't need to get a hotel :P
08:56:00 <junon> Seattle would be cool. Parents are just a state over.
08:57:00 <kazinsal> I'm hoping my plans for Seattle in March are still on but that all depends on the next six or seven weeks
08:57:00 <sham1> North America would be interesting but god damn the jet lag
08:57:00 <geist> yeah
08:58:00 <geist> travel would be good but god damn the everything
08:58:00 <Belxjander> I'm in Japan and not likely to go anywhere...
08:58:00 <klange> I really wish one of the ACM/IEEE-attached groups was actually about operating systems...
08:58:00 <klange> Could just go to one of _their_ conferences...
08:58:00 <kazinsal> mos def. I'm apparently going to be able to get shot number three in the next few weeks
08:58:00 <Belxjander> so only really going to meet anyone who is already in Japan at the time
08:58:00 <klange> But nooo, SIGOPS is about _distributed networks_...
08:59:00 <kazinsal> SIGOPS: We Don't Know What Our Name Stands For
08:59:00 <klange> Well, Japan gets me, you, and marcan.
08:59:00 <sham1> Being in Europe makes this stuff weird if that was to be a thing
09:00:00 <junon> I'd go to Japan but the borders are all closed.
09:00:00 <sham1> Maybe 2023
09:00:00 <Belxjander> junon: I'm originally from NZ and never went back... they shut the borders even for natives there... but I didn't miss anything even while being in Japan anyway
09:01:00 <kazinsal> Kinda thinking of going to USENIX this year but I'm not sure
09:01:00 <junon> Will you ever go back, though?
09:04:00 <klange> Usenix is too stuffy.
09:06:00 <klange> I don't think I could emotionally survive a legimate conference on operating systems.
09:06:00 <klange> It would just be endless talks demonstating how quaint and childish I am.
09:06:00 <nur> lol I've been to OSDI and the ATC
09:07:00 <nur> I just go to learn stuff
09:08:00 <kazinsal> Yeah, at some point I'd get tired of the weird greybeards and start talking about my opinions on Desktop Linux, and how the most Desktop of Linuxes is Windows 11...
09:08:00 <moon-child> ._.
09:10:00 <nur> weirdbeards
09:10:00 <nur> I love 'em
09:10:00 <sham1> smolbeards
09:10:00 <nur> it's 2022 the year of linux on the desktop
09:10:00 <nur> (this time right?)
09:10:00 <moon-child> I have no beard, nor am I very old, but I feel old, and am very grumpy; do I count as a greybeard?
09:10:00 <nur> yes
09:11:00 <sham1> greybeard is an internal attitude
09:11:00 <kazinsal> nur: The year of Linux on the Desktop was 2016, as that's when WSL was first released
09:11:00 * kazinsal ducks
09:11:00 <nur> kazinsal, I actually agree.
09:11:00 * sham1 gooses
09:11:00 <nur> wsl makes using windows tolerable :)
09:11:00 <sham1> That it does
09:11:00 <moon-child> for my own part, I find wsl (and windows) completely uninteresting. But if y'all like it, more power to you ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
09:12:00 <nur> I'm forced to use Windows at work and I can drop into wsl2 and lo and behold it's linux, right there
09:12:00 <moon-child> I have a copy of windows 8 on my laptop still
09:12:00 <kazinsal> WSL is neat but I just have a headless Linux box for my actual linux work since Windows has an actual xterm-compliant terminal and openssh built in these days
09:13:00 <sham1> I just use Windows Terminal. It's web trash but it works for WSL
09:13:00 <moon-child> I found my term state still got messed up using whatever was the newest and fanciest terminal windows had
09:13:00 <sham1> And I have Windows 11 on my laptop so really it just works as a bootloader for Emacs
09:13:00 <moon-child> (this was, maybe, 6 months to a year ago?)
09:13:00 <sham1> Since WSL2 on Windows 11 can into graphical apps
09:14:00 <nur> I haven't had Windows on any personal machines since 2000
09:14:00 <kazinsal> I still play video games regularly and I can't be arsed to deal with proton/wine/whatever
09:14:00 <nur> oh wait sometimes I put it in a VM if I really need it
09:14:00 <klange> It's a terrible RFB thing and it's quite slow; I got better performance running XMing.
09:14:00 <nur> ah yes games
09:14:00 <nur> I don't play them so that's not an issue
09:14:00 <sham1> I also play video games, and I play one which can't even be put into Wine/Proton because anticheat
09:15:00 <klange> I play one game, and it runs great in Wine.
09:15:00 <nur> but sometimes I think "it'd be neat if I could play video games"
09:15:00 <nur> klange, enjoying Simcity2000 eh
09:15:00 <sham1> You could always play Xonotic. It's actually pretty good
09:15:00 <klange> FFXIV
09:15:00 <sham1> ofc
09:15:00 <moon-child> only remotely recent video games I've played are doom and overwatch. Doom worked ootb in steam, overwatch took a bit of fanagling but
09:15:00 <kazinsal> Riot will never actually port the League client to Linux, but that's probably just fine because I can imagine them managing to Spaghetti Code an accidental rm /
09:16:00 <kazinsal> (Runs great on my Macbook though!)
09:16:00 <sham1> Could you run Adobe Air on Linux or whatever
09:16:00 <nur> oh yeah, I have a few macbooks too for photoshop :)
09:16:00 <moon-child> .oO(why run a linux vm on windows rather than a windows vm on linux?)
09:16:00 <junon> simcity2k was an incredible game
09:16:00 <nur> it was
09:16:00 <nur> rip maxis
09:16:00 <klange> just buy another computer /s
09:16:00 * kazinsal looks at GPUs and cries
09:17:00 <sham1> Why run a linux vm on windows instead of a window vm on linux? Because most desktops and window managers on Linux (and the BSDs) are terrible
09:17:00 <nur> why run a linux vm on windows instead of a linux vm on a mac then :)
09:17:00 <moon-child> sham1: I can not stand window management on windows. But that's just me
09:17:00 <klange> just run toaruos /s
09:17:00 <nur> do _you_ run taoruos?
09:18:00 <moon-child> kazinsal: Soon™
09:18:00 <klange> on a laptop
09:18:00 <nur> if I was forced to run my own OS I'd be cursing the guy who wrote it
09:18:00 <nur> which would be me
09:19:00 <kazinsal> Reminds me, I need to get Toaru running on my ESXi box so I can test whether it's the host that has the worst goddamn throughput ever or if my e1000 driver and/or the rest of my kernel just sucks
09:19:00 <moon-child> if I were forced to run my own shit full-time I'd be heavily motivated to improve it
09:19:00 <kingoffrance> ^ yes, that is the dogfood theory
09:20:00 <kingoffrance> you have to fix things
09:20:00 <kingoffrance> i think it sounds great...long term. short term, not so much
09:20:00 <klange> I don't really dogfood my OS, because as we all know it's a toy and not a real thing.
09:20:00 <klange> I do dogfood my editor. I have used it almost exclusively for the last three years.
09:21:00 <klange> I get confused if I have to use vim because of little things I did differently.
09:25:00 <sham1> I wish there were wlan cards with as openly known stuff as things like the e1000
09:26:00 <zid> rt2560
09:27:00 <zid> but it's very old now, 54mbps pci or whatever
09:27:00 <sham1> The best I could think of would be some dongles
09:27:00 <zid> it does get used on some dongles I th ink
09:27:00 <zid> that whole rt25xx is pretty documented I think
09:28:00 <klange> There are some USB dongles that are "give me an SSID and password and I'll give you what looks like an Ethernet card".
09:29:00 <GeDaMo> Do you also have to supply bank details? :P
09:29:00 <kazinsal> I think I'd rather write a full fat USB stack than a WLAN stack...
09:29:00 <zid> ye the 802.11 part is the hard part I imagine
09:29:00 <sham1> Me too. USB is more documented than most wlan devices
09:29:00 <zid> I can't imagine a wlan card is too different to a lan card
09:30:00 <klange> Presumably all the actually hard stuff is being offloaded to the card now but there's very little documentation available for wireless chipsets.
09:30:00 <geist> the docs if they existed would primarily be a private api to the firmware on it
09:30:00 <kazinsal> Yeah, I figure that's a lot of the reason most of them require firmware blobs.
09:31:00 <klange> Here's a random video of ToaruOS booting from a USB stick on a ThinkPad T410 because why not
09:31:00 <bslsk05> ​'2022年1月9日' by K Lange (00:00:30)
09:31:00 <geist> thus they dont really want to document it since it's basically some private RPC
09:32:00 <klange> Maybe one of those Arduino modules... but I think those also offload the whole TCP/IP stack to a mystery package...
09:32:00 <GeDaMo> ESP?
09:33:00 <j`ey> klange: v cool
09:33:00 <GeDaMo>
09:33:00 <bslsk05> ​ ESP8266 - Wikipedia
09:33:00 <kazinsal> Yeah, those ESPs are neat but a bit weird to work with
09:33:00 <geist> dunno if it's open source or not but they also have some fairly large blobs of stuff doing things
09:34:00 <geist> well ESP32 is what i'm thinking about
09:34:00 <geist> this looks like a predecessor to it
09:34:00 <klange> Radio stuff is all smoke-and-mirrors legally restricted.
09:34:00 <GeDaMo> Yeah, that's the older one
09:35:00 <kazinsal> Luckily there are some unrestricted bands but you have power limits in them etc
09:35:00 <klange> And most modern wifi/bluetooth/lte chipsets are built on very flexible software-defined-radio bits that are only legally permissible because the 'software' involved is the magic firmware blob.
09:36:00 <kazinsal> Can't just start blasting 10 kilowatts of k-pop on the ATC bands
09:36:00 <zid> FCC stuff is the main reason for all the fw blobs isn't it?
09:36:00 <zid> they need them not to be software configurable radios
09:36:00 <zid> which means hardcoding a bunch of stuff
09:36:00 <kazinsal> Sorta, yeah. SDRs exist and you can get them but they're almost always RX only
09:37:00 <kazinsal> I have one and I'm pretty sure it literally does not have TX functionality
09:37:00 <zid> so if you're allowed to set up various PLLs or whatever to select a band you could.. program them out of legality, so they just give you an ioctl and the fw does it
09:40:00 <geist> omg i'm totally binge watching omozoc stuff on youtube
09:40:00 <geist> it's hard to look away
09:40:00 <GeDaMo> What's omozoc?
09:41:00 <zid> never heard of it either
09:41:00 <GeDaMo> "omozoc is a Japanese YouTuber who makes stop-motion videos." ?
09:41:00 <geist> is the one i'm watching now
09:41:00 <bslsk05> ​'MILK CRATE' by omozoc (00:04:06)
09:41:00 <geist> yeah they're really well done, and sometimes really surreal
09:41:00 <zid> oh
09:41:00 <zid> he won an oscar I think
09:41:00 <zid> for the chopped salad one
09:43:00 <geist> is the one someone forwarded to me earlier and got me watching
09:43:00 <bslsk05> ​'SECRETS OF HARVARD STUDENTS' by omozoc (00:04:01)
09:43:00 <sham1> This looks so weird
09:43:00 <kazinsal> Yeah, these are fascinating to watch
09:43:00 <zid> watch the slad one :p
09:43:00 <kingoffrance> not knowing anything, thats what ive read too...receive all day long. its when you start transmitting then FCC comes a knocking
09:44:00 <kingoffrance> people who try to make custom antennae
09:44:00 <kazinsal> Yeah, once in a while I fire up the RTL-SDR and catch some stuff on the airwaves
09:45:00 <kazinsal> I don't have a license though so no transmitting for me
09:45:00 <zid> my random capture card I use for consoles can do DVB-T and radio and stuff
09:45:00 <zid> but I never have the antenna cable plugged in
09:45:00 <sham1> Are these kitchen utensils
09:45:00 <zid> they are woodworking tools, can't you see
09:45:00 <kingoffrance> dont have a link...people would get custom antenna, hook up to a router...but only if they could decrease the transmit power
09:46:00 <kingoffrance> otherwise, you run afoul of some limit
09:46:00 <zid> oh PES is the one that got the oscar, unless it's the same person, but it's the exact same style
09:46:00 <zid>
09:46:00 <bslsk05> ​'Fresh Guacamole by PES | Oscar Nominated Short' by PES (00:01:41)
09:52:00 <GeDaMo> Those make me think of these things
09:52:00 <bslsk05> ​ RIDDLE Dismantlement Boxlunch3(Chinese)
09:53:00 <GeDaMo> You dismantle an object by solving puzzles
09:53:00 <GeDaMo> The older ones are Flash, unfortunately, but there are some newer ones in JS
09:53:00 <nur> I should learn C++
09:53:00 <zid> see you in 2032
09:54:00 <nur> by which time there will be 40 new C++'s
09:55:00 <zid> good point, see you in the void century
11:40:00 <sortie> <klange> Sortix is almost entirely C++.
11:41:00 <sortie> Just the kernel, ext2 filesystem in user-space (going into the kernel in the future), and some games. The rest of Sortix is very much C.
11:41:00 <moon-child> 'filesystem in user-space' you do fuse? Or a custom thing?
11:42:00 <sham1> Implementing drivers in userspace is nice. Hybrid kernels
11:42:00 <moon-child> prefer ukernel
11:42:00 <moon-child> (or does it make a difference? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
11:44:00 <klange> sorry
11:45:00 <sortie> moon-child, it's a custom protocol. I didn't like the exact design of fuse. Anyways my protocol has some big fundamental issues and I plan to get rid of it, move the ext2 filesystem into the kernel for performance, mmap support, and unified cache policies. I'll probably build something better one day.
11:46:00 <sortie> klange, oh no worries, but can we talk about how this guy took the time to explicitly say G.R.U. and not GNU
11:47:00 <kazinsal> unix, but brought to you by the main intelligence directorate of the russian federation
11:47:00 <sortie> I will be upset if my OS ends up being used by fun organizations such as intelligence agencies and homeland sec
11:52:00 <Ermine> Russian military uses Debian-based linux distro
11:52:00 <Jari--> Ermine: Astra Linux?
11:52:00 <Ermine> Yeah
11:53:00 <Jari--> time for real rue
11:53:00 <kazinsal> I think the Canadian Forces still uses 2.11BSD and VAXes.
11:54:00 <kazinsal> I'm only half joking -- the last production commercial Multics system in the world was operated by the CF.
11:54:00 <kazinsal> It was shut down in 2000.
11:55:00 <GeDaMo>
11:55:00 <bslsk05> ​ Air Force finally retires 8-inch floppies from missile launch control system | Ars Technica
11:55:00 <GeDaMo> 2019
11:56:00 <kazinsal> Vancouver's automated rail system still runs off 3.5" diskettes
11:57:00 <sham1> Nothing wrong with diskettes
11:57:00 <Ermine> I've heard somewhere that US missile defence use computers from 70s-80s, but I'm not sure whether it is (still) true
11:57:00 <sham1> One needs 100% uptime
11:57:00 <kazinsal> There's plans to build a new operations and maintenance centre with a new set of machines running newer SelTrac software
11:58:00 <kazinsal> But convincing the government to let go of a hundred million is a bit of a task
11:58:00 <GeDaMo> Ermine: that article, they're still using these
11:58:00 <bslsk05> ​ IBM Series/1 - Wikipedia
11:58:00 <GeDaMo> "a 16-bit minicomputer, introduced in 1976"
11:58:00 <Ermine> GeDaMo: thanks
11:58:00 <Ermine> They don't modernize it, because downtime is expensive
11:59:00 <kazinsal> F/A-18s are still running on AN/AYK-14s from the 70s as well
12:00:00 <GeDaMo> Probably less susceptible to EMP too
12:00:00 <kazinsal> Military tech lags behind because ruggedization is hard
12:01:00 <kazinsal> IIRC most US Navy shipboard computer workstations are VMEbus based
12:02:00 <Ermine> I wonder if they write software in Ada
12:02:00 <kazinsal> C and Ada, previously this atrocious bastard language called CMS-2
13:30:00 <zid> I have a hungry but nothing looks interesting.. or doesn't require cooking
13:31:00 <moon-child> what's wrong with cooking?
13:31:00 <zid> I'm also lazy
13:31:00 <zid> as well as hungry
13:31:00 <GeDaMo> Toast
13:32:00 <zid> requires cooking, and requires nicer bread than I have tbh
13:32:00 <zid> they were out of the nice stuff
13:35:00 <gog> i had a bacon egg sandwich
13:36:00 <zid> jello
13:36:00 * gog passes zid a lox and shmear bagel
13:37:00 <zid> I have no idea what those words are is this a trick
13:37:00 <Mutabah> I keep a stock of "emergency noodles" (instant noodle cakes with flavour saches), good for quick and lazy meals
13:37:00 * moon-child also does not know what a shmear is
13:37:00 <gog> it's smoked salmon and cream cheese
13:37:00 <gog> best kind of bagel topping imo
13:37:00 <zid> I had noodles for breakfast :p
13:37:00 <moon-child> gog: gotta add onyo
13:37:00 <gog> moon-child: onion is critical
13:37:00 <moon-child> and tomato
13:38:00 <gog> yes
13:38:00 <moon-child> and those little pickle-ish things--I don't remember what they're called
13:38:00 <moon-child> chives, maybe?
13:38:00 <zid> What I want is like.. pizza
13:38:00 <gog> capers
13:38:00 <moon-child> yeah those
13:38:00 <zid> or a big mac
13:38:00 <gog> a classic bagel
13:38:00 <moon-child> now I want a bagel
13:38:00 * gog is the bagel babe
13:38:00 <GeDaMo> A pizza is just bread with stuff on top, right? :P
13:39:00 <gog> yes
13:39:00 <zid> if my pizza has a hole in it I'm sending it back
13:39:00 <bauen1> keeping a can of "good enough to eat" instant meal around is a good idea ; especially if you manage to forget that certain days are holidays and you end up standing in front of a closed supermarket
13:40:00 <gog> we keep good bread and pb & j in the house for quick brekkies
13:40:00 <sham1> zid: you could try ordering
13:40:00 <zid> at 1pm on a sunday?
13:41:00 <sham1> Yes
13:41:00 <zid> that.. is not going to work
13:42:00 <zid> oh shit I know what I want, battered sausage
13:42:00 <zid> hrng
13:42:00 <j`ey> sounds painful
13:42:00 <GeDaMo> Only if you're the sausage :P
13:43:00 * moon-child batters zid's sausage
13:43:00 <sham1> Get a room
13:44:00 * moon-child slaps sham1 around a bit with a battered sausage
13:44:00 <sham1> Oh good. Two minutes until the sun's down
13:47:00 <zid> if you've never had one you are missing out
13:47:00 <zid>
13:48:00 <GeDaMo> I like a white pudding on occasion
13:49:00 <zid> what animal do you get the white blood from?
13:49:00 <GeDaMo> Oatmeal :P
13:49:00 <zid> Oat blood is pretty metal
13:50:00 <zid> I bet there are nice ones, but I bet there are also bloody awful ones
13:52:00 <sham1> Hah, bloody
13:58:00 <zid> "Im trading to make a OS from scratch, can simeone tekla me how to make the supporto for HDMI ?"
13:58:00 <zid> It's nice that on reddit I can silently ignore these people without feeling like they are imposing on my time in the first place
13:58:00 <moon-child> can you?
13:59:00 <moon-child> because you've spent _at least_ 30 seconds thinking about it
13:59:00 <zid> ignore != !think
14:00:00 <moon-child> does it though
14:00:00 <moon-child> lmao, that guy only has one other comment: 'Siuuuuum, grande rat'
16:04:00 <gog> mew
16:06:00 <g1n> mew gog
16:07:00 <gog> oh hai
16:07:00 <gog> fancy meeting you here
16:07:00 <g1n> lol
16:08:00 <g1n> maybe i will get back to developing orion one day
16:10:00 <gog> we all tell ourselves that :p
16:10:00 <g1n> lol
16:15:00 <sham1> No such thing as "getting back to developing"
16:16:00 <g1n> ok
16:16:00 <g1n> you got me
16:16:00 <g1n> i maybe will rewrite it
16:16:00 <g1n> lmao
16:16:00 <Lugar> lol
16:16:00 <g1n> cuz it was several monthes ago since i last touched it
16:17:00 <gog> hey i got my stuff going again after several months :p
16:17:00 <gog> during a rewrite of a thing
16:17:00 <GeDaMo> You're resting between development sessions :P
16:17:00 <g1n> and a lot of taken from somewhere code, that wasn't understood by me lmao
16:17:00 <eryjus> sometimes you have to take a break to make things clear
16:18:00 <g1n> yes
16:18:00 <gog> yes need a months-long rest
16:18:00 <g1n> but i was accually writing other code, and learnt a lot new things :)
16:18:00 <eryjus> but there is no "getting back"... it's all part of the process
16:18:00 <GeDaMo> You're waiting for the right path to reveal itself :P
16:30:00 <gog> think i'm giving up on trying to do anything else today :p
16:30:00 <gog> i'm looking at the code and just pulling my hair
16:30:00 <GeDaMo> You use a gesture controlled editor? :|
16:31:00 <gog> no i just pull my hair when i can't focus :p
16:36:00 <Lugar> when I cant focus i just sit on my sofa and stair out the window
16:37:00 <Lugar> i might come back to my pc in 5 minutes, or 15, or a day
16:37:00 <gog> there's just too much happening in my house to really finish a thought to complention rn :p
17:28:00 <sortie> Anyways that operative joining asking about an OS for their 32 MB laptop sent me on a big sidequest today
17:28:00 <gog> what did you find?
17:28:00 <sortie> Anyways fixing a silly but nasty kernel linking bug, I reduced my minimum memory usage requirements for i686 from 129 MiB to 32 MiB
17:29:00 <gog> nice
17:29:00 <sortie> Basically the .init section had gotten linked at 128 MiB which meant GRUB failed to load the kernel on machines smaller than that, despite it not being used, whoops
17:30:00 <sortie> Without a graphical login screen, an installation of my OS can boot in 20 MiB. 24-32 MiB is kinda needed for it to be functional. If I disable the framebuffer and use the vga text mode, it can boot in 17 MiB.
17:31:00 <sortie> (Of course you'll need more memory for whatever you want to DO with my OS)
17:31:00 <gog> 32MiB should be enough for anybody
17:48:00 <vdamewood> I'm building a computer that only has 16MiB of address space.
17:48:00 <vdamewood> And I might ony use 128k of that.
17:50:00 <GeDaMo> Pfft! Who needs more than 64K? :P
17:54:00 <bauen1> anything more than 4kb SRAM and a 256 bytes ROM with the original woz monitor is seriously overkill
17:57:00 <gog> yes
18:01:00 <vdamewood> GeDaMo: Well, 32k of RAM, 32k of ROM, and a few extra bits for I/O.
18:01:00 <gog> the only I/O you need is a teletype
18:02:00 <vdamewood> gog: But how will i activate the fish dispenser?
18:02:00 <gog> hmm good point
18:02:00 <gog> you need at least two serial ports then
18:02:00 <bauen1> vdamewood: you can display a prompt to the user, telling the user to activate the fish dispenser
18:03:00 <gog> PEBFDAU
18:03:00 <gog> furthermore i thought you were the fish dispenser
18:04:00 * vdamewood dispenses a fishy to gog.
18:04:00 * gog chomps fishy
18:10:00 <vdamewood> The videos I watched that inspired the project only had an LCD character display for output and a single push button for input.
18:12:00 <GeDaMo> "Please do not press this button again" :P
18:15:00 <GeDaMo>
18:15:00 <bslsk05> ​'DON'T TOUCH BOX !!! - THE ORIGINAL by Sally71 (my shop: useless box' by **Sally71** (00:02:50)
18:16:00 <kingoffrance> ren and stimpy had a big red button in space IIRC
18:22:00 <vdamewood> I miss ThinkGeek.
18:23:00 <vdamewood> I just did a search for Useless Box on the search results included the XBox Series S.
18:24:00 <gog> haaaaa
18:25:00 <gog> gottem
19:03:00 <friedy10-> vdamewood: How is it useless? It can run doom.
19:05:00 <vdamewood> friedy10-: Don't ask me. Ask They're the ones who yielded it as a result.
20:57:00 <sortie> The feeling when somebody successfully boots my OS on a Pentium 2 447MHz with 192 MiB RAM
20:58:00 <sortie> They did have to patch out enabling SSE, turns out I don't hard require it after all (if it's not enabled)
21:05:00 <geist> yah re: physical load address i think the safest is 16MB
21:05:00 <geist> it avoids any lower ISA/EISA holes, and is generally free of EFI stuff
21:37:00 <vdamewood> geist: Is that Re: what I was talking about?
21:37:00 <geist> well, sortie was saying a while ago that they moved the load address of the kernel so it'd run on lower ram
21:38:00 <zid> 1MB for life
21:38:00 <geist> i was generally commenting that a good load address for x86 kernels is 16MB since it's the first real absolutely guaranteed free run
21:38:00 <geist> though yeah 1MB is usually free too
21:38:00 <geist> i think with zircon we've seen some hazards down there where EFI systems dont always clear it ou
21:38:00 <zid> low addresses on x86 are a nightmare mess
21:39:00 <geist> we've had to fiddle a bit with load addresses, and the ultimate solution which is nearly ready is to just make the kernel physically relocatable
21:39:00 <sortie> geist: Oh right I use 1 MiB
21:39:00 <sortie> geist, the problem was that I had a stray section that wasn't linked properly and the linker happened to put those 15 bytes at 128 MiB
21:39:00 <geist> ah yeah
22:06:00 <sham1> Don't use anything below 16 MiB unless absolutely necessary (ISA DMA, AP trampoline for SMP purposes). Just let it be after you've loaded your kernel (above the 16 MiB hole one would hope)
22:07:00 <sham1> A machine where you can't put the kernel and such onto over 16 MiB is probably not worth using
22:10:00 <clever> what was it about dos himem that made it so complicated to configure?
22:14:00 <zid> If your computer can't fit a few hundred k at 1MB it's broken sorry
22:47:00 <zid> did another internet congolmerate start having issues again or something
22:48:00 <zid> half my stuff is super laggy
22:48:00 <gog> idk i've been having youtube issues for weeks now
22:48:00 <gog> everything else seems to be fine
22:48:00 <zid> we must use different porn sites
22:49:00 <gog> i only look at bespoke artisan porn, i have good tastes
22:50:00 <zid> I only look at conceptual erotic art
22:50:00 <zid> the concept is that they're all naked
22:54:00 <gog> good concept
23:54:00 <geist> sham1: generally agree though for isa dma <640K is generally sufficient
23:54:00 <geist> not a lot of 24 bit but not 32 bit dma stuff floating around
23:55:00 <geist> for < 640k you can just chop it into 10 64k blocks and then have a simple bitmap allocator for ISA dma purposes
23:56:00 <geist> to use for bounce buffers or for a driver to claim. 10 is probably sufficient given the amount of isa dma devices that still may exist
23:58:00 <clever> i have been thinking about how adding similar limitations on an rpi would improve dma latency
23:59:00 <clever> because of how non-coherent dma is on the rpi hw, you must flush everything to dram, and then tell the dma hw to read back from dram
23:59:00 <clever> and that must suck for latency?