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#osdev2 = #osdev @ Libera from 23may2021 to present

#osdev @ OPN/FreeNode from 3apr2001 to 23may2021

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Thursday, 12 January 2023

00:07:00 <heat>
00:07:00 <bslsk05> ​ Stalls in qemu with host running 6.1 (everything stuck at mmap_read_lock())
00:07:00 <heat> im not insaneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
00:07:00 <heat> fucking finally
00:10:00 <zid> nice
00:11:00 <heat> is this also your issue zid?
00:14:00 <zid> no idea?
00:14:00 <zid> but we repro'd it on my machine
00:14:00 <zid> so I at least have it
00:15:00 <heat> i'm still on lts like a lowly debian user
00:40:00 <epony> self-pity for the toy story
02:22:00 <moon-child> hmmm I got some new ram and now I'm not sure how to lay it out
02:23:00 <moon-child> have 4x channels, 8x slots. 4x 8gb dimms, 2x 32gb dimms. Presumably I give each of the 32gb dimms a channel to itself? Which channels should get a 32gb dimm and which 8gb dimms?
02:23:00 <moon-child> I guess the bigger ones should go closer to the cpu?
02:34:00 <zid> ooh new rams
02:34:00 <zid> you need to know the number of ranks on each dimm for this btw
02:35:00 <zid> Fewest ranks per channel is typically what'll work best
02:38:00 <moon-child> whaat
02:38:00 <moon-child> what's a rank
02:38:00 <moon-child> andhow do I find out how many ranks I have?
02:49:00 <moon-child> ooh the 32g dimms are _heavy_
02:49:00 <heat> i am global elite
02:51:00 <moon-child> o shit it's the global elite
02:51:00 <moon-child> wassup
03:00:00 <epony> it'll be a global secret
03:01:00 <epony> in other news, suspended flights
03:05:00 <zid> heat: I am LEM, or was like 10 years ago, pew pew
03:07:00 <zid> moon-child: usually they say 1xR or 2R or something somewhere the model name
03:07:00 <zid> and it correlates to whether they've got ICs on one or both sides usually
03:08:00 <zid>
03:08:00 <moon-child> hmmm I have a bigger problem now: mobo bios says the ram is running at 2133mhz instead of 2666
03:08:00 <zid> the 2666 might be an xmp profile
03:08:00 <zid> that you have to manually enable
03:08:00 <zid> cpuz also shows it
03:08:00 <zid> 'ranks: dual'
03:09:00 <zid> (cpuz gets the speed of this ram wrong though, it runs out of room for jedec profiles at 888 then.. gives up?)
03:10:00 <zid> actually the speed is just wrong entirely, weird, I wonder if I should bugrep that
03:10:00 <moon-child> xmp profile?
03:10:00 <moon-child> I did find a thing that says 'target dram frequency: 2666mhz'. So why is it claiming not to run at that frequency? Claims all the sticks support it
03:11:00 <zid> JEDEC is the standards body, the ram will report those and the bios will train them, but they also have 'non-standard' modes called XMP
03:11:00 <zid> because JEDEC adds the speeds *after* they become popular :D
03:11:00 <zid> most bioses default to not trying to train the xmp profile speeds
03:16:00 <moon-child> well, I futzed with some settings related to 'training', and it now claims to be running at 2666mhz
03:16:00 <zid> cpuz will tell you
03:16:00 <zid> if you're on windows
03:16:00 <moon-child> I'm not running winblows
03:16:00 <zid> hmm not sure for linux
03:16:00 <zid> lshw?
03:17:00 <zid> "The canonical method is to boot Memtest or if you are so endowed, boot Windows and use CPU-Z" :D
03:17:00 <clever> product: F3-12800CL10-8GBXL
03:18:00 <clever> lshw shows the model of the ram, but it doesnt show rank
03:18:00 <clever> i guess google it from there?
03:18:00 <clever> and then play musical chairs with the ram
03:20:00 <zid> we moved onto speed, clever
03:20:00 <zid> which lshw can't show apparently
03:20:00 <zid> just the jedec info
03:20:00 <moon-child> freebsd bitch
03:20:00 <moon-child> no lshw!
03:20:00 <zid> so you're double fucked
03:20:00 <zid> I'd trust the bios screen, anyway
03:21:00 <zid> I've not rebooted since I got my new ram, I should tighten the timings up tbh
03:23:00 <moon-child> ooh I get way more memory bandwidth now than I did before
03:23:00 <moon-child> I'm pretty sure
03:24:00 <zid> how much?
03:24:00 <moon-child> (actually kind of suspicious, as the difference is more than 2666/2133)
03:24:00 <zid> I get 50GB/s
03:24:00 <moon-child> I think I got 15gb/s before, now 40-50
03:24:00 <zid> dang, welcome to ddr3
03:24:00 <moon-child> also worth noting I only have 4 cores
03:24:00 <zid> I have 6!
03:24:00 <moon-child> so that's probably not helping. I'll get more once I have a job again...
03:25:00 <zid> I hope your machine didn't cost more than mine
03:25:00 <zid> £50 for the ram, £20 for the cpu
03:25:00 <moon-child> size matters
03:25:00 <moon-child> I did get the cpu for way cheap. Mobo more expensive
03:25:00 <zid> yea my mobo is stupidly expensive
03:28:00 <zid> There's one 2nd hand on ebay for £244 :D
03:29:00 <zid> But also £140
03:29:00 <moon-child> how much did you pay for it?
03:29:00 <zid> £0
03:29:00 <moon-child> o.o
03:29:00 <zid> It was an RMA because of a dead sata port, it was being used as a NAS
03:29:00 <zid> I don't need 16 sata ports or whatever
03:30:00 <zid> I can't find the other HMT41GU7AFR8C-RD so that I can match my dimms up :(
03:31:00 <zid> wait what, fuck, there's HMT42G here, the 16GB one
03:31:00 <zid> for dirt cheap, noo
03:32:00 <moon-child> (actually I'm kinda wondering ... now that new intel cpus are out, will it be possible to get old xeons for cheaper?)
03:32:00 <moon-child> (maybe save a bit on the 18-core thingy)
03:32:00 <zid> You can get a 2699 v3 for £102
03:32:00 <zid> that's 18 cores :P
03:32:00 <zid> If you want the xeon gold one that's £2000
03:33:00 <moon-child> eyeing this thingy
03:33:00 <bslsk05> ​ QTY 1x Intel Confidential Xeon CPU W-2295 3.00Ghz ES QSU0 socket LGA2066 | eBay
03:33:00 <zid> 2295 is legit as fuck
03:33:00 <zid> There's a better one though
03:33:00 <moon-child> that fits in my motherboard? I thought that was the last one
03:34:00 <zid> 3375, 2295, 13900k
03:34:00 <zid> are the three 'good' cpus intel makes
03:34:00 <zid> (1390P doesn't exist)
03:34:00 <zid> not sure the 3375 exists either tbh
03:34:00 <moon-child> FCLGA4189
03:35:00 <moon-child> I like the core count though
03:35:00 <zid> 3375 is the highest cores * freq cpu they sell
03:35:00 <zid> 2295 is the highest clocks they sell with quad channel memory
03:35:00 <zid> 13900k is the highest clocks they sell without quad
03:35:00 <zid> I think
03:35:00 <zid> a friend made a database of everything on ark and we made some queries to find the best in class cpus :P
03:36:00 <zid> I wish I knew about the HMT42GR7AFR4C-RD now, I feel dumb :(
03:37:00 <zid> Let's pretend it wouldn't have worked right because it's got too many ranks.
03:37:00 <moon-child> what's a HMT42GR7AFR4C-RD
03:37:00 <zid> SK Hynix 16GB PC3-14900R DDR3-1866Mhz 2RX4 ECC
03:37:00 <moon-child> ddr3 rip
03:38:00 <zid> I spent the same money on SK hynix HMT41GU7AFR8C-RD
03:38:00 <zid> which is 8GB
03:38:00 <zid> and I can't even find 2 more to go with it
03:38:00 <zid> there's 8 of the 16GB just sat on ebay
04:03:00 <kaichiuchi> hi
04:03:00 <moon-child> hi
04:20:00 <zid> whoever designed my keyboard has no fucking idea how strain relief works
04:20:00 <zid> the rubber grommet thing is actually super stiff plastic, so all it has done is made a nice lip for the cable to fray on
04:33:00 <clever> ive seen that on a number of products
05:54:00 <heat> cmputer
05:59:00 <sham1> What's a cmputer
06:02:00 <Mutabah> a badly made (spelt) computer :)
06:12:00 <sham1> It was a reference to that one Apple ad, but that's technically correct. The best kind of correct
06:25:00 <zid> pooder.
06:30:00 <moon-child> no _you_'re a pooder
08:39:00 <immibis_> zid: cargo cult
08:46:00 <zid> immibis_: Your underwear is a cargo cult
08:46:00 <zid> Oh I thought you were insulting me.
08:47:00 <immibis_> no, hard strain relief is a cargo cult
08:47:00 <zid> yea I got it after I realized it wasn't just a random funny insult :D
08:48:00 <immibis_> of course we live in an economic environment where cargo-culting is mandatory because if you spend the time to make something good, armed thugs come and take away your home
08:48:00 <zid> and your product has to be 4% more profitable every year, which either means taking 4% of the plastic away, or making it last 4% less long :P
08:52:00 <immibis_> or cutting employee wages 4%
08:52:00 <zid> Always a classic
08:54:00 <immibis> have you seen Luetzerath?
08:55:00 <immibis> the German government is like "sorry guys we're sacrificing your houses for coal"
08:55:00 <zid> oh neat
08:55:00 <immibis> This is legal because it helps shareholders. Meanwhile the same government say they cannot take homes away from shareholders because it's unconstitutional
08:56:00 <zid> we onlined a new coal mine, but afaik it's to be the last one ever, our coal is shit and they're only using it for industrial supply for making coke for steel with I think
08:57:00 <immibis> if they were mining anywhere other than under a town they stole from its residents, it would probably be not great, but it would be excusable
08:57:00 <zid> germany offlined all its nuclear plants recently didn't it
08:57:00 <zid> that seems.. excessively stupid, given what's happening now
08:57:00 <immibis> Yup. Green party seems to be getting bribed by coal companies
08:58:00 <zid> "Our pipeline access to russian oil is gone, if only there was something we could do about this! Oh well. *digs harder*"
08:58:00 <zid> It's funny how it's the *green* party who sold out
08:58:00 <immibis> Actually it is more likely they are bribed by Russia. Putin is the world's richest man.
08:58:00 <zid> given what a green party is supposed to do
08:59:00 <immibis> No other party is any better. Not even The Left
08:59:00 <zid> our green party is also a shitshow on nuclear, but nobody votes for them at least
08:59:00 <immibis> The others probably didn't need to sell out.
08:59:00 <zid> right, there's a bias there, putin's not going to give billions to pro-coal people :p
09:00:00 <immibis> Nobody votes for the USA green party because of Duverger's law - this has nothing to do with their policies
09:01:00 <immibis> I remind anyone in the USA reading this, that Duverger's law applies separately to each seat, so if you live in a safe Democrat seat then you can switch your vote to Green
09:02:00 <zid> Yea I've legit heard people here say they won't vote lib dem because of "splitting the vote"
09:02:00 <immibis> (assuming they are not stupid overall. I have no idea what they are like)
09:02:00 <zid> this is the safest tory seat int he country
09:02:00 * Mutabah laughs in STV
09:02:00 <Mutabah> (or RCV, not sure if there's a difference?)
09:03:00 <immibis> RCV is a general term for the UI format while STV is a method to calculate the winner which requires an RCV input
09:04:00 <immibis> Ranked choice = you put all the politicians into a preference order
09:06:00 <Mutabah> *nod*
09:06:00 <immibis> am I right in thinking the term "operating system" is a reanalysis of "disk/tape operating system" being a system used to operate disks or tapes?
09:07:00 <Mutabah> (Australia uses RCV - with STV for one house, and a fractional transfer for the other)
09:07:00 <gog> nya
09:07:00 <zid> glug
09:07:00 <Mutabah> immibis: Probably.
09:07:00 <gog> zib
09:08:00 <gog> havð segirðu
09:08:00 <zid> Yes I do have sekiro
09:08:00 <zid> it is a good game.
09:08:00 <gog> næs
09:09:00 <zid> should that be hvað
09:09:00 <zid> my icelandic is rusty
09:09:00 <zid> I learned it in a weekend a few years ago and forgot most of it
09:09:00 <zid> Oh I need to stay awake today, dang, need to shift my sleep forwards for weekend
09:09:00 <gog> yes i typo'd
09:11:00 <zid> There's AN FESTIVAL
09:11:00 <zid> I'd tell you the details but it's so rural and incomprehensible
09:14:00 <heat> gog, gog
09:14:00 <heat> play dark soul
09:14:00 <heat> god game
09:15:00 <zid> sekiro also god game
09:15:00 <zid> lit. game about gods
09:16:00 <heat> dark soul also game about gods
09:16:00 <heat> and thicc demons
09:17:00 <zid> Does quelaag count as thicc
09:17:00 <zid> she does have a LOT of ass
09:22:00 <heat> i was thinking more about the asylum demon and its copies
09:22:00 <heat> largest ass in the game right? except maybe ceaseless
09:23:00 <gog> i'm playing "doing my job" rn sorry
09:23:00 <heat> gog no trabajes
09:23:00 <gog> si estoy trabajando ahora
09:23:00 <gog> lo crees
09:23:00 <heat> viene jugar almas negras
09:50:00 <zid> I'vebeen lookin for my soldering iron this entire time and haven't found it
09:50:00 <zid> whih is bad, because I've already cut the cable of my keyboad in wo
09:50:00 <zid> two
09:55:00 <gog> oops
09:56:00 <moon-child> how are you typing then o.o
09:57:00 <mjg> more then one keyboard
09:57:00 <mjg> than
09:58:00 <heat> how are you going to boot now
09:59:00 <gog> two of them
09:59:00 <zid> The atrocious waste of space I bought the new one as a replacement for
09:59:00 <zid> becaues t as so unsuabel
10:14:00 <moon-child> how does the intel cstate/power management stuff actually work?
10:14:00 <moon-child> could I clock one core way down, as low as it'll go, but also keep it pegged, never letting it go to sleep
10:14:00 <moon-child> and get reasonable power/heat?
10:15:00 <heat> yes
10:15:00 <zid> I think turbo 3.0 or whatever takes a lot of that control away doesn't it?
10:15:00 <heat> that's what happens on 100% usage if you disable turbo boost
10:15:00 <heat> for U series laptops, etc
10:15:00 <zid> you set up taus and shit
10:15:00 <heat> if I disable turbo boost on my laptop and run prime95 it will 100% at 800MHz
10:16:00 <zid> nod, cus that's your lowest multi
10:16:00 <moon-child> can I do that just for one core?
10:16:00 <moon-child> and can I go lower than 800mhz?
10:16:00 <heat> maybe?
10:16:00 <zid> multis are hardcoded at the top end
10:16:00 <zid> I assume they are at the bottom end too
10:17:00 <zid> if you wanna fiddle with stuff on linux
10:18:00 <zid> afaik turbo is a global for the cpu, and with turbo off you can't set different multis per core? it's all weird
10:18:00 <zid> and changes constnatly
10:19:00 <zid> This is basically the same set of tools you use for overclocking, and you're generally limited to "all core turbo" and "disable all the cores except 1"
10:22:00 <heat> i mean these are all MSRs so
10:26:00 <moon-child> hmmm maybe it'll be ok if I just pause a lot
10:37:00 <Ermine> ping
10:37:00 <heat> pong
10:38:00 <zid> somone must sell pre-made usb cables, but I have no idea what you'd search for..
10:39:00 <Ermine> heat: thank you
10:39:00 <gog> prr
10:39:00 <gog> i do not like s3
10:39:00 <Ermine> gog: may I pet you
10:39:00 <gog> yes
10:39:00 * Ermine pets gog
10:39:00 * gog prr
10:39:00 <gog> i have rainbow socks on today
10:40:00 <zid> anyone have any ideas?
10:40:00 <Ermine> I still have NY socks
10:40:00 <heat> ... so my ipv4 default route got deleted someho
10:40:00 <heat> w
10:40:00 <zid> nice
10:43:00 <FireFly> gog: something something (AWS icon quiz)
10:43:00 <bslsk05> ​ AWS icon quiz
10:44:00 <zid> well it seems to be exactly this, but I can't find anything on amazon
10:44:00 <bslsk05> ​ USB Header Mini PH 2.0mm 5 Pin to USB 2.0 Type A Male Adaptor Cable -
10:47:00 <zid> ooh this could be exactly it
10:47:00 <bslsk05> ​ Replacement Wire Durable Nylon Braided Line Usb Mouse Cable For Razer Deathadder Essential Wired Gaming Mouse - Pc Hardware Cables & Adapters - AliExpress
10:48:00 <FireFly> ?
10:48:00 <bslsk05> ​ USB 2.0 A Male Left /Right Angle to Dupont 5 Pin Female Header Motherboard Cable | eBay
10:49:00 <zid> oh nevermind then? :P
10:49:00 <zid> nah it isn't dupont, and that shows as "removed" for me
10:49:00 <FireFly> ah
10:50:00 <FireFly> your aliexpress link didn't work for me, but that might be on my end, idk
10:50:00 <FireFly> or georestrictions or something
10:50:00 <zid> works for me, I tested before pasting too :(
10:51:00 <FireFly> oh looks like it's maybe geofenced, says in german it's not available in my location (and just basically shows a 404 page)
10:51:00 <FireFly> silly aliexpress
10:52:00 <fedorafan> Ermine heat who won
10:53:00 <fedorafan> !joke
10:53:00 <fedorafan> you are doing everything
10:53:00 <fedorafan> except os developing right :D
11:09:00 <Ermine> I switched to a new IRC bouncer, so I test connectivity
11:10:00 <fedorafan> free bouncer or yours
11:10:00 <Ermine> Mine, self-hosted
11:10:00 <fedorafan> nice
11:10:00 <fedorafan> smarter
11:24:00 <fedorafan> superfast leightweight linux for vm
11:24:00 <fedorafan> ideas
11:57:00 <epony> FreeBSD
11:58:00 <epony> s/vm/container/g
11:58:00 * epony ignites a Redhat Linux 4 CD
11:59:00 <epony> shuriken haircuts free today
12:28:00 <zid> Finally got hold of soldering iron, keyboard no worky :(
12:29:00 <zid> Need a multimeter now :D
12:35:00 <Jari--> hi all
12:47:00 <kaichiuchi> hi
12:48:00 <sham1> Heya
12:50:00 <ddevault> why are interrupts so complicated
12:51:00 <dminuoso> They are not complicated.
12:51:00 <heat> citation needed
12:52:00 <dminuoso> It's just that asynchronos code in general is hard to reason about in systems.
12:52:00 <zid> heat why does my keyboard not work anymore
12:52:00 <zid> black black (white green) red should be fine :(
12:52:00 <dminuoso> Have you tried plugging it in?
12:52:00 <dminuoso> :>
13:20:00 <netbsduser> ddevault: what complication are you speaking of?
13:24:00 <heat> oh i dont know, irq routing, figuring out what the fuck a "GSI" is, trying to map an interrupt by going up the whole fucking device tree, figuring out MSIs
13:24:00 <heat> anything else? :v
14:05:00 <kaichiuchi> heat: bazinga
14:05:00 <heat> ba
14:05:00 <Ermine> bazinga moment
14:06:00 * gog bazingas
14:11:00 <Ermine> Being sick sucks
14:11:00 <kaichiuchi> Ermine: may i gog you
14:12:00 <Ermine> yes
14:12:00 * kaichiuchi gogs Ermine
14:12:00 * Ermine prrs
14:16:00 <gog> :o
14:16:00 <gog> what is happening
14:16:00 <Ermine> gog is used for gogginh
14:16:00 <Ermine> gogging
14:18:00 <heat> david gogins
14:18:00 <Ermine> Jim Gogins
14:43:00 <zid> fucking hell yea, fixed it
14:43:00 <zid> I have found the only usb device that refuses to turn on if D+ and D- are swapped, or I am incredibly unlucky
14:44:00 <zid> and it was somehow something else wrong for ages
14:45:00 <sham1> The only one implemented to spec
14:45:00 <zid> now my mouse isn't working :P
14:45:00 <zid> I think I probably triggered some voltage protection on that hub though fucking around
14:45:00 <gog> oops
14:46:00 <zid> ya, replug into diff hub, all good
14:46:00 <zid> cellotape is WAY better strain relief than what this shit started with.
14:54:00 <gog> y'all we had some rank amateurs write this code i'm working on rn istg
14:54:00 <gog> and it was not me
14:54:00 <gog> i'm at least above that level slightly
14:54:00 <kaichiuchi> at my old job, one of the software test engineers was fresh out of college
14:54:00 <kaichiuchi> a "good" college
14:55:00 <kaichiuchi> didn't know what anything was at all
14:55:00 <kaichiuchi> couldn't tell me what the command prompt was, or python, or intel, or anything
14:55:00 <gog> lmao
14:55:00 <zid> intel is what spies gather
14:55:00 <zid> duh
14:55:00 <sham1> kaichiuchi: insert Rob Pike quote here
14:55:00 <gog> yeah my boss said that he had some interns awhile back and they didn't know anything. he was expecting me to be about the same level but i'm actually good at what i do
14:55:00 <kaichiuchi> does he have something to say about this
14:56:00 <gog> i'm suspecting one of those interns wrote this code
14:56:00 <gog> the repo doesn't have a proper username for it
14:56:00 <gog> so i can't git blame :(
14:57:00 <kaichiuchi> what I didn't mention is that guess who had to train him
14:57:00 <kaichiuchi> me
14:57:00 <kaichiuchi> so you can imagine how close I was to exploding
14:58:00 <kaichiuchi> when he said that his parents paid for his schooling 100%, then it made sense
14:58:00 <kaichiuchi> any moron can get into a good college if the parents are saying "here's a metric fuck ton of money"
14:58:00 <zid> I never understood people who got into tech but didn't like tech enough to know anything
14:58:00 <gog> YAY! i fixed it
14:58:00 <zid> Like, this is all a learning game
14:58:00 <zid> without any drive to you know, learn anything, the fuck are you going to do
14:59:00 <sham1> zid: I understand. Money
14:59:00 <zid> suffer every day scheduling 'study sessions'?
14:59:00 <zid> and still get nowhere
14:59:00 <gog> yeh i literally have to learn every day because i came into this job knowing nothing about any of this and just kinda sank or swim lol
15:00:00 <kaichiuchi> you're in web dev right?
15:00:00 <gog> yeah
15:00:00 <heat> gogjs
15:01:00 <gog> i didn't really know c# or anything about ASP.NET
15:01:00 <kaichiuchi> honestly I don't know anything other than c, c++, and python
15:01:00 <gog> i know some stuff about html and css and a teeny bit about js
15:01:00 <gog> the learning curve to start was steep
15:01:00 <gog> but i got up it
15:01:00 <gog> thankfully c# is a lot like c++ in some ways
15:02:00 <zid> C# seems kinda nice, but people can do the whole python/c++/etc thing and write total garbage in it
15:02:00 <heat> my condolences in having to write C#, gog
15:02:00 <heat> at least write java!
15:02:00 <zid> still my favourite
15:02:00 <bslsk05> ​ JADE/InstructionManager.cs at master · BLNJ/JADE · GitHub
15:04:00 <gog> ugh scope depth is too deep
15:04:00 <gog> this needs refactor
15:04:00 <zid> it needs deleting
15:04:00 <gog> maybe
15:04:00 <zid> This is supposed to be a cpu interpreter
15:04:00 <gog> seems a bit excessive
15:04:00 <zid> but instead of switch(opcode){ thing }
15:04:00 <zid> it's making like, diffs of the universe
15:04:00 <zid> and factory factorying them
15:05:00 <zid> it allocates several hundred kilobytes per instruction
15:05:00 <gog> gotta be factory factoried
15:05:00 <gog> enterprise quality
15:05:00 <gog> heat: honestly it's not that bad
15:05:00 <zid> He was wondering why it was running slowly.
15:06:00 <FireFly> I was expecting worse somehow :P
15:06:00 <zid> I think I upset him so much he stopped programming
15:06:00 <kaichiuchi> that tends to happen on the internet
15:06:00 <zid> cus the commit I saw is the final commit he made on github
15:06:00 <gog> aw
15:07:00 <gog> you've made me upset plenty of times i'm not gonna stop programming about it
15:07:00 <kaichiuchi> that's why I try to moderate what I say
15:07:00 <zid> "what if I di-" "No, delete it"
15:07:00 <zid> gog: oh sorry, lmk next time
15:07:00 <gog> lmao
15:07:00 <zid> I'll blame heat.
15:07:00 <kaichiuchi> there was some dude on #c on freenode
15:07:00 <heat> my fault
15:07:00 <kaichiuchi> Zhivago I think it was
15:07:00 <heat> i really shouldn't have done that
15:07:00 <zid> zhiv <3
15:07:00 <kaichiuchi> no not <3
15:07:00 <zid> big Z
15:07:00 <heat> i swear I didn't know it was a war crime
15:07:00 <zid> zhiv was amazing
15:07:00 <kaichiuchi> he was a massive asshole that was sanctioned by the channel
15:08:00 <kaichiuchi> and by "sanctioned" I mean basically officially supported as far as I know
15:08:00 <zid> It was his channel as far as I know
15:08:00 <kaichiuchi> "my retarded little friend" I vividly remember him saying to someone who was asking a legitimate question
15:08:00 <kaichiuchi> within *minutes*
15:08:00 <zid> It ran well because it was moderated, that channel is completely useless now
15:08:00 <zid> minutes is ages for zhiv
15:08:00 <heat> ;_;
15:09:00 <kaichiuchi> you mean "it ran well because people were instantly banned"
15:09:00 <kaichiuchi> for _nothing_
15:09:00 <zid> yes, that channel got a lot of traffic, and a lot of idiots who should not have been there, either asking questions, or giving 'advice'
15:09:00 <zid> when the mods were asleep
15:09:00 <kaichiuchi> i know this is the internet, and irc is particularly brutal
15:09:00 <kaichiuchi> but jesus christ
15:10:00 <kaichiuchi> idiots asking questions aren't idiots.
15:10:00 <heat> depends
15:10:00 <kaichiuchi> there's this mentality that "wtf is wrong with my program" and the issue is trivially obvious to people like us
15:10:00 <zid> [15:03] <dangbarry> hey, how did i use fopen(), please help!
15:10:00 <zid> <frag4> what part of the manual you don't understand?
15:10:00 <zid> <dangbarry> what manual?
15:10:00 <kaichiuchi> what manual is a good question
15:10:00 <zid> <dangbarry> how do you use the manual1? please help!
15:10:00 <kaichiuchi> yes *how* do you use the manual? use the man command
15:10:00 <zid> <Zhivago> dangbarry: Programming is not for the mentally retarded, unfortunately.
15:11:00 <heat> if I only vaguely know what a computer is and come to #osdev ask "how2creat operating system" I am an idiot
15:11:00 <kaichiuchi> yeah that entire dialog is fucked
15:11:00 <kaichiuchi> sorry to say
15:11:00 <kaichiuchi> it's not something that a normal human being does
15:11:00 <kaichiuchi> when I started programming I didn't even know "man" existed
15:11:00 <kaichiuchi> .
15:11:00 <zid> kaichiuchi: You have to deal with him in 2 minutes before the next idiot shows up, and he's *clearly* too stupid to handle any support he could possibly receive.
15:11:00 <zid> Your move.
15:11:00 <kaichiuchi> there's this expectation that people somehow know absolutely everything when ending up in #c or #c++
15:11:00 <zid> No
15:12:00 <kaichiuchi> 80% of the time they say "RTFM"
15:12:00 <kaichiuchi> so what's the point
15:12:00 <zid> The expectation is that they can ask a question, and receive an answer
15:12:00 <kaichiuchi> .
15:12:00 <zid> 50% fail the former, an additional 45% fail the latter
15:12:00 <kaichiuchi> calling someone retarded for asking where the manual is, or implicitly what "man" is
15:12:00 <kaichiuchi> not really okay.
15:13:00 <gog> yeahh but if you're at the level of learning C and you can't figure out how to teach yourself shit
15:13:00 <kaichiuchi> and unfortunately, this is one of the only professions where that is in abundance particularly onlne
15:13:00 <kaichiuchi> *online
15:13:00 <gog> you're going to have a very bad time
15:13:00 <kaichiuchi> if you are trying to teach yourself C, first you need to have a good book
15:13:00 <kaichiuchi> I would ask some questions and try to steer them in the right direction
15:14:00 <kaichiuchi> not immediately just call them mentally retarded
15:14:00 <mjg> zid: where is that quote from
15:14:00 <zid> ##c
15:14:00 <gog> i don't think it justifies verbal abuse
15:14:00 <mjg> oh zhivago
15:14:00 <mjg> dude
15:14:00 <zid> [13:08] <Zhivago> kontain: Have you done the first exercise in your book?
15:14:00 <zid> [13:08] <kontain> No, I didn't.
15:14:00 <zid> [13:08] <Zhivago> Yes. Otherwise I will ban you.
15:14:00 <gog> but i also don't think people like that need to be entertained
15:14:00 <zid> [13:08] <kontain> How many types are there first of all
15:14:00 <zid> [13:08] <kontain> Should I do it and come back?
15:14:00 <mjg> don't even go there kthx
15:14:00 <mjg> is he still active?
15:14:00 <mjg> i mean this fresh? :p
15:14:00 <zid> no idea
15:14:00 <kaichiuchi> I haven't seen him in #c since libera
15:14:00 <zid> no that's from.. 2012?
15:15:00 <kaichiuchi> point being, it'd be best if people would stop masturbating to stupid shit like that
15:15:00 <zid> [13:09] <kontain> Zhivago: Just explain me small things?
15:15:00 <zid> [13:09] <kontain> What is * and & /
15:15:00 <kaichiuchi> yes and i'd tell them
15:15:00 <zid> Yea and I'd ignore you both
15:15:00 <gog> would you really be doing them a favor?
15:15:00 <zid> him for being unhelpable and you for spamming the channel
15:15:00 <zid> if I were a mod I'd ban you both
15:15:00 <kaichiuchi> you must be 50 years old
15:16:00 <zid> No I just know how help vampires work
15:16:00 <kaichiuchi> apparently not
15:16:00 <kaichiuchi> what you're doing is encouraging people to be assholes
15:16:00 <zid> No, you've got a big case of the entitlement there.
15:16:00 <kaichiuchi> you can't be serious
15:16:00 <zid> Free support channel staffed by volunteers, gets attacked by a help vampire in the dead of night
15:16:00 <zid> "just help him ffs"
15:16:00 <kaichiuchi> i've never heard of a help vampire until today
15:17:00 <zid> It shows
15:17:00 <kaichiuchi> what, because someone asks a question like that and I say "in the case of *, it depends on what you're doing; have you read the C programming language 2nd edition (K&R)?"
15:17:00 <zid> kaichiuchi: He was already instructed to read a book, he said he would, note the timestamps
15:18:00 <zid> a MINUTE later he regened and started asking questions from the first page of said book without having read it.
15:18:00 <zid> This is *all* this person will *ever* do.
15:18:00 <kaichiuchi> one response has a sign of people skills, the other has a sign of severe impairment
15:18:00 <zid> Expect you to hand-teach them a complex and involved programming language, and they will not lift a finger to help themselves.
15:18:00 <kaichiuchi> i'll let you decide which one is which
15:18:00 <zid> This will continue for *weks* unless you stop it.
15:18:00 <zid> weeks*
15:18:00 <gog> i think there's a difference between a help vampire and a helpless noob who hasn't learned enough to really be able to teach themselves
15:19:00 <zid> I know this because: I've seen literally hundreds of them, and tens of people like you
15:19:00 <zid> nobody wins
15:19:00 <kaichiuchi> i've never had this problem
15:19:00 <kaichiuchi> quite literally never
15:19:00 <kaichiuchi> except in real life with the guy i just mentioned
15:19:00 <gog> the noob needs to be redirected to something simpler to grasp first
15:19:00 <zid> hence: "where is your book?" being the ##c motto at the time
15:19:00 <gog> the help vampire usually has a personality disorder
15:19:00 <gog> and demands attention and care from people who don't owe it to them
15:20:00 <zid> It's a bit like hiring, you use petty reasons just to cut the 400 applicants down to 20
15:20:00 <gog> and becomes indignant when you provide them with the tools but not the care
15:20:00 <zid> so that the real-20 can be considered properly
15:20:00 <kaichiuchi> gog: that I can understand, those people are annoying, yes
15:20:00 <kaichiuchi> understand what I am not saying: I am *NOT* saying there aren't annoying people
15:21:00 <kaichiuchi> but generally speaking, if you say someone is mentally retarded within 5 lines, either they have said something massively fucked up, or you don't have good people skills
15:21:00 <gog> there's a non-programming support space i'm in where we have this one repeat customer. she knows people get sick of her shit so she comes back under different nicknames doing the same thing and demanding that everybody pay attention to her problems and listen to her vent. then she complains that we're not helpful and demands that we provide her with a list of similar spaces she can go abuse.
15:22:00 <gog> i've spent countless hours trying to get through to her
15:22:00 <gog> trying to comfort her
15:22:00 <gog> and it's been a massive drain on me and other people and she still comes back to take more from us
15:22:00 <zid> You learn not to be a victim eventually
15:22:00 <kaichiuchi> yes, those are people with a serious psychiatric disorder
15:22:00 <zid> It doesn't help either of you
15:23:00 <gog> anyhow, that's the kind of person who needs to be discouraged
15:23:00 <gog> and it's hard to tell which is which
15:23:00 <kaichiuchi> you could make the argument that help channels don't need to exist at all, is my point, at this point
15:23:00 <gog> a person who is just genuinely clueless and needs guidance to the resources to help themselves
15:23:00 <kaichiuchi> yes
15:23:00 <kaichiuchi> and that's not wrong
15:23:00 <gog> or a narcissist who wants to waste your time and energy for pleasure
15:23:00 <kaichiuchi> there are 2983742983489297 bad C/C++ books
15:23:00 <zid> That's why /topic's exist, and the lead question "Which book are you using?"
15:23:00 <kaichiuchi> infinitely more bad C/C++ resources that come up on google
15:24:00 <zid> If they say no book, you tell them to read K&R2
15:24:00 <mjg>
15:24:00 <bslsk05> ​ Main Page - C
15:24:00 <mjg> this used to be up to date
15:24:00 <kaichiuchi> mjg: right
15:24:00 <zid> if they say a different book, you tell them not to read that book it's shit
15:24:00 <zid> simple syste
15:24:00 <zid> If they say K&R2 you then ask them if they read the chapter this shit is covered in, and they say no
15:24:00 <zid> and you say "well, have fun"
15:25:00 <kaichiuchi> I think what I'm getting at ultimately is: yes, gog's story rings true, those people are everywhere, I don't disagree; but #c is the only place I've ever been in ever where people routinely got shit on
15:25:00 <kaichiuchi> *ROUTINELY*
15:25:00 <zid> because it was routinely joined :P
15:25:00 <kaichiuchi> so is every other channel and help group
15:25:00 <zid> not really, tbh
15:25:00 <kaichiuchi> what? you think #c is that special?
15:25:00 <heat> i think you're both being stupid
15:25:00 <zid> I'm 100% serious about the every 2 miutes someone completely incapable of rational thought was joining
15:26:00 <zid> the.. 12 years ago or whatever these logs are from
15:26:00 <heat> help vampires exist but shitting on them is absolutely not something you should do
15:26:00 <kaichiuchi> i'm not sure i'm the one being stupid here
15:26:00 <heat> just ignore them, simple 'as
15:26:00 <heat> 20<heat>30 i think you're both being stupid
15:26:00 <zid> gotta shuffle them out the back door as fast as possible in a body bag
15:26:00 <kaichiuchi> the stupidity is shitting on someone to such a degree that they stop even trying to write code
15:26:00 <zid> so the people you might be able to help can be helped
15:26:00 <kaichiuchi> i'm not saying zid did that with any conclusive evidence or anything
15:27:00 <zid> kaichiuchi: That probably saves a lot of effort
15:27:00 <kaichiuchi> no it doesn't...
15:27:00 <kaichiuchi> i swear to god this is the only profession I know of where this type of attitude is proliferated in mass numbers
15:27:00 <zid> No, it's literally everywhere, you just see it
15:28:00 <kaichiuchi> so, what I'm hearing is
15:28:00 <zid> artists get told "maybe art isn't for you", pianists, football players, etc
15:28:00 <kaichiuchi> yes, and that's not really okay
15:28:00 <kaichiuchi> if they enjoy doing something, and if they want to try and get better, the last thing you do is tell them they can't do it
15:29:00 <zid> You just said it didn't happen
15:29:00 <zid> so it's fine
15:29:00 <kaichiuchi> it's extremely neurotic to say, implicitly, "i'm glad that I probably shat on someone so hard they stopped coding because they're just another idiot"
15:29:00 <heat> mjg, solaris
15:29:00 <kaichiuchi> i'm going to stop talking now before I say something awful, and I don't want to say something awful
15:29:00 <zid> oh btw, that kontain guy was in the channel for the next EIGHT HOURS asking those basic ass questions :D
15:30:00 <zid> and by basic I mean 'this person is basic' not 'trivial'
15:30:00 <zid> He was also there the next day..
15:30:00 <mjg> heat: what
15:30:00 <heat> solaris man
15:30:00 <mjg> there is probably a discord for C
15:30:00 <kaichiuchi> solaris
15:31:00 <mjg> makes one wonder how that looks like
15:31:00 <zid> Is there a solaris for discord
15:31:00 <kaichiuchi> mjg: i don't trust anything on discord
15:31:00 <kaichiuchi> well, particularly when it comes to programming
15:31:00 <mjg> kaichiuchi: sure
15:31:00 <mjg> heat: almost
15:31:00 <kaichiuchi> something that I can readily agree upon: when I joined the cpp discord server, I was almost instantly banned
15:31:00 <mjg> there is discord or compatible for omnios
15:31:00 <mjg> which is a illumos variant
15:31:00 <kaichiuchi> I don't quite remember what I said, but it was completely innocuous
15:32:00 <heat> sorry, i only use enterprise UNIX
15:32:00 <zid> heat: what comes after 2f? is it 230?
15:32:00 <kaichiuchi> then I had two mods DM me
15:32:00 <kaichiuchi> and I said "aight i'm out"
15:32:00 <mjg> kaichiuchi: "FUCK CPP USE RUST FUCKERS"
15:32:00 <heat> call me after Discord for UnixWare comes out
15:32:00 <heat> zid, hahahaha
15:32:00 <heat> we got trolled so hard man
15:32:00 <zid> We got help vampried but we were bored :P
15:32:00 <mjg> one could argue you were instigiting
15:32:00 <zid> I knew what I was doing, at least
15:32:00 <kaichiuchi> that guy i worked with told me the hex digits were through 0-G
15:32:00 <kaichiuchi> and was adamant
15:33:00 <epony> the price is $2.49 USD for UNIX and 2,249 USD for the PC
15:33:00 <mjg> uh?
15:33:00 <mjg> this one is trivially disprovable though?
15:33:00 <kaichiuchi> absolutely
15:33:00 <mjg> so it's liek what happened
15:33:00 <epony> you call that shitOS
15:33:00 <zid> kaichiuchi: This is a reference to the time me and heat spent 3 hours trying to teach a guy OSdev, and by teach a guy OSdev, we mean teaching him how to count.
15:33:00 <zid> Because he coudln't count.
15:33:00 <epony> the PC costs about $250-500 USD in reality
15:33:00 <heat> it wasn't just us
15:33:00 <kaichiuchi> zid: in that case, I can agree there's a limit
15:33:00 <kaichiuchi> please understand me
15:33:00 <kaichiuchi> there is a limit
15:33:00 <heat> it was legit like 4 or 5 people
15:33:00 <kaichiuchi> but that limit isn't usually within 5 sentences
15:34:00 <heat> we all got fucking bamboozled by mr hex
15:34:00 <kaichiuchi> *usually*
15:34:00 <epony> but for you, because you liek shitOS $2,000 USD extra charge
15:34:00 <zid> still goin
15:34:00 <zid> what's your PB heat?
15:34:00 <bslsk05> ​ <no title>
15:34:00 <epony> next year have more brains in that stupid head ;-)
15:34:00 <heat> i'll leave it running tonight
15:34:00 <kaichiuchi> my goodness though
15:35:00 <kaichiuchi> he really couldn't count?
15:35:00 <kaichiuchi> like, 10+10=20?
15:35:00 <Ermine> 10 + 10 = 100
15:35:00 <heat> kaichiuchi, it was hex
15:36:00 <kaichiuchi> ok so 0x0F + 0x0F == 0x1E
15:36:00 <heat> after 3 hours if you say 2f + 1 210 you're trolling
15:36:00 <zid> he didn't get past incrementing
15:36:00 <zid> addition lol
15:36:00 <epony> looks like a couple people who can not decide how to number the lines in their BASIC program
15:37:00 <kaichiuchi> okay, I wish I would've been here for that
15:38:00 <kaichiuchi> in particular because I would've enjoyed seeing both zid and heat melt down
15:38:00 <heat> geist too
15:38:00 <heat> and a few more people
15:39:00 <epony> from the future
15:40:00 <zid> I knew what I was doing, I don't have full logs because I had to unignore him to hear him not be able to count
15:41:00 <kaichiuchi> how long ago was this
15:41:00 <kaichiuchi> surely it's on the public logs
15:41:00 <zid> april 2nd 2022
15:41:00 <zid> ye
15:41:00 <kaichiuchi> a day after april fools?
15:41:00 <zid> he was serious, he had a github and everything
15:42:00 <kaichiuchi> found it
15:43:00 <kaichiuchi> 18:50 <heat> what the fuck do you mean
15:43:00 <kaichiuchi> 18:51 <scripted> oh shit
15:43:00 <kaichiuchi> 18:51 <heat> you definitely know how to count
15:43:00 <kaichiuchi> classic
15:43:00 <ddevault> why might an aarch64 device have more than one GIC?
15:43:00 <gog> oh yeah that guy!
15:43:00 <zid> <scripted> heat: my teacher told us to search math videos on tiktok
15:44:00 <gog> you sure it wasn't siberianascii trolling
15:44:00 <gog> i'm not sure
15:44:00 <zid> his github was old and matched his name, shrug
15:44:00 <epony> what is a GIC?
15:44:00 <epony> ,GIC
15:44:00 <kaichiuchi> 19:07 <zid> I'm 32 bro
15:44:00 <kaichiuchi> i refuse to believe that
15:45:00 <epony> 32 brothers.. you must have more than one shared parent
15:45:00 <epony> or, number 32 in school.. damn that's packed
15:45:00 <kaichiuchi> geist coming in with "no, let's not insult the student" A+
15:46:00 <epony> and then the student goes to work and gets insulted instantly 200 times in a row
15:47:00 <zid> <geist> stop guessing. that's more hurtful
15:47:00 <zid> is my favourite.
15:47:00 <zid> That's just how some people operate, if you try to socratic method them they will *guess*
15:47:00 <epony> why are you quoting living people?
15:48:00 <GeDaMo> Apparently I took part in that conversation but I have no memory of it :|
15:48:00 <mjg> socrates wouuld never invented the method if he knew it would be used by zid on irc
15:48:00 <mjg> just sayin
15:48:00 <kaichiuchi> 21:13 <scripted> I thought all of my commits were gone
15:48:00 <kaichiuchi> 21:13 <scripted> oh my FUCKING god
15:48:00 <kaichiuchi> 21:13 <scripted> git just scared the fuck out of me
15:48:00 <kaichiuchi> 21:13 <zid> is it because the commit IDs are in hex
15:48:00 <epony> philosophy of the guesses
15:48:00 <epony> guessing what a philosopher would do
15:48:00 <kaichiuchi> (i'm sure I don't have to say this, but we are not making fun of this guy beyond this channel)
15:48:00 <mjg> i don't know who is trolling in the above
15:49:00 <kaichiuchi> to me he seems like he's 14 or something
15:49:00 <kaichiuchi> and as someone who was once 14, I've said and done quite a lot of stupid things
15:49:00 <kaichiuchi> so I'm being gentle
15:49:00 <FireFly> you've been 14 once?
15:49:00 <mjg> i skipped that age
15:49:00 <zid> wait, you're *past* that?
15:49:00 <epony> you skipped 13
15:49:00 <mjg> heat was 14 twice
15:49:00 <FireFly> zid: oof
15:50:00 <ddevault> epony: generic interrupt controller
15:50:00 <heat> yeah i overflowed
15:50:00 <GeDaMo> Fist in decimal then in hex :P
15:50:00 <GeDaMo> Er, first
15:50:00 <epony> ddevault, that's not my name, just joking.. forgot the other details of the question, why would armv8 have that?
15:51:00 <kaichiuchi> yeah I can see zid why you were going bonkers
15:51:00 <Ermine> want: decimal fist
15:51:00 <zid> In other news.
15:51:00 <epony> hahaha
15:51:00 <kaichiuchi> "omg i'm so tired" every time it got hard
15:51:00 <epony> octal 2 missing digits
15:51:00 <zid> 'hard'
15:51:00 <ddevault> I mean, I don't know
15:51:00 <ddevault> hence asking
15:51:00 <zid> incrementing numbers :D
15:51:00 <ddevault> seems like things are designed such that more than one can be present
15:52:00 <kaichiuchi> i think the poor bastard was just a kid, and deeply confused, and bit off far more than he could chew, and got overwhelmed
15:52:00 <zid> He was very beyond "whelmed"
15:52:00 <heat> are you kidding me
15:52:00 <heat> he couldn't fucking count
15:52:00 <zid> #osdev yo
15:52:00 <heat> zid pulled out the abbacus
15:52:00 <kaichiuchi> i'm trying to be nice
15:53:00 <Ermine> what happens
15:53:00 <kaichiuchi> because again, I definitely see the wtf
15:53:00 <heat> and *the javascript*
15:53:00 <epony> count in BCD with gray code
15:53:00 <epony> let's see you do it now
15:55:00 <zid> My favourite was that he liked to respond with "no"
15:55:00 <kaichiuchi> this is what I'm saying
15:55:00 <kaichiuchi> likely a kid, and wanted attention
15:56:00 <kaichiuchi> i've... done a lot of stupid things on the internet at that age, as I said.
15:56:00 <kaichiuchi> that would be one of them.
15:56:00 <zid> I'd absolutely not be upset if someone called you a moron and banned you
15:56:00 <zid> sorry not orry
15:56:00 <epony> that assumes people stop doing stupid things on the internet.. which might not be even possible
15:57:00 <kaichiuchi> yet I turned out fine
15:57:00 <kaichiuchi> well, 'fine'
15:57:00 <epony> hahaha
15:57:00 <epony> FINE!
15:57:00 <zid> Think of how much finer you could have been
15:57:00 <kaichiuchi> i don't think that's how that works
15:58:00 <zid> if you had a strong parental figure telling you to knock that stupid shit off
15:58:00 <epony> like a balet dancer on low carb diet
15:58:00 <epony> who can't dance
15:58:00 <epony> and looks hungry
15:58:00 <epony> for knowledge and more
15:58:00 <kaichiuchi> i think we're just going to have to agree to disagree, even though your arguments have some merit to them
15:59:00 <zid> osdev basically enver bans, it's kinda fun but we're low enough traffic
15:59:00 <kaichiuchi> yes and I'm glad osdev never bans
15:59:00 <zid> that I can just ignore a couple of persistant trolls
15:59:00 <kaichiuchi> almost never bans anyway
16:00:00 <kaichiuchi> i mean the conversation started off fairly okay
16:00:00 <kaichiuchi> then it did quickly devolve because it was obvious he was immature
16:00:00 <zid> so the question is then, you know he's about to do it from line 1
16:00:00 <zid> do you just ban him 'unfairly'
16:00:00 <zid> or let him send the next 80 messages, then ban him
16:01:00 <zid> so that you can justify the ban to.. noboy
16:01:00 <kaichiuchi> banning is always the last resort, if there's even a modicum of hope (which was extinguished the moment he kept saying he was sleepy and "no" all of the time)
16:01:00 <mjg> zid: nice find re yaml url
16:01:00 <kaichiuchi> I've *struggled* with certain things
16:01:00 <zid> yaml url?
16:01:00 <kaichiuchi> and I was really trying to learn
16:02:00 <kaichiuchi> I ended up getting banned from the channel
16:02:00 <kaichiuchi> that sucked
16:02:00 <Ermine> ban moment is a random variable which is Markov moment
16:02:00 <ddevault> klange: I'm reading your aarch64 timer/GIC setup code and wew boy do I not grok it
16:02:00 <kaichiuchi> i mean we're just going in circles at this point
16:02:00 <zid> mjg pls tell me your serets
16:02:00 <kaichiuchi> i'm going to reboot and play ff7 remake
16:03:00 * kof123 throws a midgard serpent at kaichiuchi
16:03:00 <epony> reboot to year 1996
16:03:00 * kaichiuchi cries
16:03:00 <kof123> no, that means you are initiated now
16:03:00 <kof123> look it up lol
16:04:00 <kaichiuchi> ohhhh
16:04:00 <mjg> zid: when i was about 5 i was taking a piss outdoors and my 5y/o female neighbour was watching
16:05:00 <zid> mjg: what about yaml url secrets?
16:05:00 <kaichiuchi> when i was 22 i got completely drunk and puked and pissed in my friend's yard
16:05:00 <kaichiuchi> that's a secret
16:05:00 <zid> no it isn't
16:05:00 <kaichiuchi> you're right
16:05:00 <zid> that's like, every weekend for 30 million brits
16:06:00 <mjg> yaml stands for yet another moronic languagte
16:06:00 <zid> mjg: Please just tell me I am dying here
16:06:00 <zid> if you don't tell me I will develop severe trust issues
16:06:00 <kaichiuchi> speaking of britain
16:06:00 <mjg> life is hard zid
16:06:00 <zid> okay I no longer trust mjg to say anything interesting
16:06:00 <kaichiuchi> i kind of want to visit oxford university or something
16:07:00 <zid> and anything he says that I don't understand, I will assume is nonsense he won't elaborate on even if asked
16:07:00 <zid> so can safely be ignored
16:07:00 * mjg doubles down on grooming heat
16:07:00 <heat> hello
16:07:00 <mjg> heat: hey buddy, how is the solaris install going
16:07:00 <kaichiuchi> god
16:08:00 <heat> i deleted my openbsd vm
16:08:00 <mjg> heat: did uncle Bonwick give you a candy
16:08:00 <mjg> nooo
16:08:00 <mjg> wtf
16:08:00 <mjg> dude
16:08:00 <kaichiuchi> that counting story has something stuck in my head
16:08:00 <mjg> you can't say that in broad dayglight
16:08:00 <kaichiuchi> 1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 10, 10 becomes 100
16:08:00 <zid> heat: do you know what a 'nice find re yaml url' is
16:08:00 <mjg> arguably it is getting dark
16:08:00 <kaichiuchi> Everything has its beginning. But it doesn't start at "one." It starts long before that, in chaos. The world is born... from zero. The moment zero becomes one is the moment the world springs to life. One becomes two, two becomes ten, ten becomes 100. Taking it all back to one solves nothing. So long as Zero remains, one... will eventually grow to 100 again. And so our goal was to erase Zero. Even the mighty Patriots began with a single man. That
16:08:00 <kaichiuchi> one man's desires grew huge, bloated; absorbed technology; began to manipulate the economy. We realized too late that we had created a beast. We had helped turn Zero into 100. His sin was ours. And for that reason, I'm taking it upon myself to send Zero... back to nothing.
16:09:00 <mjg> zid: oh wow, i'm so sorry
16:09:00 <zid> Okay he's well into disorganized speech territory here, take the meds kaichiuchi
16:09:00 <zid> see you tomorrow
16:09:00 <mjg>
16:09:00 <bslsk05> ​ The yaml document from hell
16:09:00 <heat> im confused
16:09:00 <mjg> someone linked this one channel over
16:09:00 <mjg> i somehow thought it was you
16:09:00 <zid> and you thought rather than clarifying, you'd troll me and ruin our friendship, wow
16:09:00 <mjg> i thouhg you were fucking around with the response
16:09:00 <zid> WOW
16:09:00 <mjg> which would be in style for the channel
16:09:00 <zid> That you could think of me like this
16:10:00 <zid> Breaks my heart
16:10:00 <mjg> would a hug from heat patch it up?
16:10:00 <mjg> really though, is a great read
16:10:00 <zid> gaay
16:10:00 <ddevault> klange: nevermind, makes sense now
16:10:00 <zid> Also you could't *pay* me to use yaml
16:10:00 <mjg> this is why i'm suggesting it zid
16:10:00 <zid> I already ranted about the *concept* of it, here
16:10:00 <mjg> oh you did?
16:11:00 <zid> yea
16:11:00 <zid> <zid> People kept trying to get me to use YAML on one of my projects
16:11:00 <zid> <zid> Literally nobody could explain to me why
16:11:00 <zid> <zid> "It has a date format!"
16:11:00 <zid> <zid> Okay but.. if it parses the date, it's going to give me the date in some struct, and I will have to use the posix date functions to turn it into a date I can use anyway
16:11:00 <mjg> :))
16:11:00 <zid> <zid> so I've skippped.. precisely 0 steps, but now the config takes 10x as long to load and uses a custom format
16:11:00 <mjg> this reminds me of people who push tdd
16:12:00 <mjg> the reason to do tdd is that you will have tests!
16:12:00 <heat> the only date format I use is nanoseconds since epoch
16:12:00 <mjg> epoch: heat's birthday
16:12:00 <zid> I use the gregorian jan 1st 1970
16:12:00 <mjg> i don't even track time
16:12:00 <heat> no time in polan
16:12:00 <mjg> no time like the present
16:12:00 <mjg> time() returns a constant named NOW
16:12:00 <zid> But I am thinking of switching to julian
16:12:00 <zid> how many days apart are we now?
16:13:00 <zid> That'll solve the Y2038K problem
16:13:00 <mjg> lemme count
16:13:00 <mjg> before = time();
16:13:00 <mjg> after = time();
16:13:00 <heat> zid, you should ask the pontifex maximus, he deals with that sort of stuff
16:13:00 <mjg> i get 0
16:14:00 <zid> mjg: I think people got *very* confused when they started seeing json
16:14:00 <zid> because json is just 'eval me in javascript and you can sorta load data into javascript, which does not support files'
16:14:00 <zid> and went OH, WE SHOULD HAVE THAT DO, forgetting that a) they were not javascript and b) they could open files
16:15:00 <zid> s/DO/TOO
16:15:00 <zid> so now everything is a yaml describing an xml containing a json descripting what should be an ini
16:15:00 <mjg> see so happens i need $something to represent parts of a directory tree and was thinking of json
16:16:00 <mjg> filename + mtime
16:19:00 <heat> i like json
16:20:00 <heat> i use it
16:20:00 <FireFly> zid: and it's all generated by nix *ducks*
16:20:00 * Ermine uses XML
16:21:00 <mjg> i happen to know there will be no funny names in there
16:21:00 <mjg> so escaping lullers is not a problem
16:22:00 <heat> Ermine, stop
16:24:00 <Ermine> joking
16:28:00 <FireFly> <STOP />
16:40:00 <mjg> heat: mofo did you send your linux patch using git send-email from gmail?
16:51:00 <epony> mofo is short for mobile phone
17:52:00 <gog> i'm back
18:01:00 <Ermine> gog is back!
18:09:00 <gog> tell a friend
18:10:00 <Ermine> heat: did you hear, gog is back!
18:28:00 <heat> gog
18:35:00 <gog> heat
18:45:00 <vdamewood> Hi back, I'm vdamewood.
18:45:00 * vdamewood gives back a fishy.
18:46:00 * vdamewood mentions gog to trick her client into highlighting her.
18:46:00 * gog chomp fishy
18:57:00 <FireFly> guess who's back, guess who's back, guess who's back..
19:42:00 <kaichiuchi> so
19:42:00 <kaichiuchi> i have a ducky mini keyboard now
19:42:00 <kaichiuchi> it is perfect
19:47:00 <sham1> FireFly: no
19:48:00 <FireFly> fine, then don't guess
19:56:00 <immibis_> Ermine: markov is so last two decades, we have GPT now
19:57:00 <immibis_> json is a convenient container of hierarchical data, kinda like python is for code
19:57:00 <immibis_> for quick and dirty scripting
19:58:00 <immibis_> maybe INI is better for configuration, slightly, but not by a whole lot, not really if you have things like nested lists or dicts
19:58:00 <Ermine> immibis_: we're talking about different things
20:00:00 <immibis_> yes that's the joke
20:01:00 <kaichiuchi> this keyboard is quite tiny
20:01:00 <kaichiuchi> i've never had a tenkeyless
20:10:00 <FireFly> you never had a keyboard without numpad before? :o
20:10:00 <FireFly> hm
20:10:00 <kaichiuchi> never
20:10:00 <kaichiuchi> but i like it
20:10:00 <kaichiuchi> it's quite elegant and still very functional
20:10:00 <kaichiuchi> i was concerned for am inute
20:10:00 <kaichiuchi> minute*
20:11:00 <kaichiuchi> the only thing that nags me a bit is the fact I have an Fn key now
20:44:00 <gog> i want the tenkey
20:44:00 <gog> get out of here with your toy keyboards
20:44:00 <kaichiuchi> :(
20:58:00 <kaichiuchi>
20:58:00 <kaichiuchi> this is spooky
20:58:00 <bslsk05> ​ Had to explain what a cassette is today. What was common growing up that's now obsolete? : AskReddit
20:58:00 <kaichiuchi> my cousin asked me what a cassette tape was a few days ago
20:59:00 <Bitweasil> Meanwhile, our house still has a turntable...
20:59:00 <Bitweasil> In active use.
21:00:00 * kaichiuchi old
21:03:00 <gog> floppies
21:03:00 <gog> i didn't carry around a usb flash drive until around 2004
21:03:00 <gog> still moved school files around on floppy
21:24:00 <immibis_> gog: tenkey sounds like tankie so it's bad
21:28:00 <gog> economic problems of socialism on 104-key keyboards
21:29:00 <heat> mjg, sup, sorry I didn't see your msg back there
21:29:00 <heat> yes, I did send-email from gmail. why?
21:29:00 <mjg> did you just slap your password in there?
21:31:00 <mjg> check it out, i sped up access(2) and ran into the lockref problem i mentioned some time ago
21:31:00 <mjg> test threads before after
21:31:00 <mjg> access1 1 1310582 2908735 (+121%) # distinct files
21:31:00 <mjg> access1 24 4716491 63822173 (+1353%) # distinct files
21:31:00 <mjg> access2 24 2378041 2005501 (-15%) # same file
21:32:00 <mjg> after patching lockref to not suck this bumps to over 5.3mln
21:32:00 <heat> mjg, no, you're supposed to go to your google account's "app passwords" section or something and generate a code you can use as a password
21:32:00 <mjg> i tried that, google says the feature is no longer active
21:32:00 <mjg> i mean available
21:32:00 <heat> I don't know if just using the plain old password works without 2FA but I have 2FA so I had no choice
21:32:00 <heat> let me see
21:33:00 <heat> mjg, you can't use this to generate a password?
21:33:00 <bslsk05> ​ Account settings: Your browser is not supported.
21:33:00 <mjg> nope
21:35:00 <mjg> yo check this out
21:35:00 <mjg> fstat2_processes -t 96
21:35:00 <mjg> min:12768 max:12843 total:1229336
21:35:00 <mjg> sysctl fs.lockref_pause=0
21:35:00 <mjg> min:37998 max:69396 total:5222514
21:35:00 <mjg> tadah
21:35:00 <mjg> this is a problem for fucking YEARS now
21:36:00 <heat> wtf, wdym nope?
21:37:00 <mjg> i mean the pause instruction slapped into a cmpxchg loop which wants to inc/dec a counter
21:37:00 <mjg> is a terrible fucking idea on amd64
21:38:00 <mjg> original lockref did not do anything of the sort
21:38:00 <mjg> then someone from arm showed up with benchez for that cpu which show a benefit from their pause-equivalent
21:38:00 <mjg> ... and then it got slapped in for *all* archs
21:38:00 <heat> mjg, "App Passwords can only be used with accounts that have 2-Step Verification turned on."
21:38:00 <mjg> liek bro, plz
21:38:00 <heat> do you have 2FA?
21:39:00 <mjg> no, but i can slap it in
21:39:00 <heat> then just try your pw?
21:39:00 <mjg> not comfy with that
21:39:00 <mjg> anyway was hoping for a WEIRD TRICK
21:40:00 <heat> if you're not comfy with that, do keep in mind that you're going to send some sort of auth token in any case ;)
21:40:00 <mjg> welp time to write a ranty email
21:41:00 <heat> do it from /s
21:41:00 <mjg> bro if i had an openbsd account i would SO do it
21:41:00 <mjg> but then again perhaps i would not be in position to write about smp
21:41:00 <heat> lol
21:42:00 <heat> also keep in mind the normal restrictions (no HTML, plain text, gmail sucks and wraps your lines automagically)
21:43:00 <heat> also if you still have issues with git send-email auth, I think there's a tool called b4 that can help out with that. basically it takes your patch and sends it internally from a with your actual email as a Reply-To or something
21:44:00 <mjg> ooh that would be nice
21:44:00 <mjg> talking about weird tricks!
21:44:00 <heat> grow a pair and use git send-email
21:44:00 <heat> fuck your phabricator
21:44:00 <heat> phuck*
21:45:00 <mjg> OOH
21:46:00 <mjg> that's my code review tool you are talking about!
21:47:00 <heat> it's my favourite unmaintained code review tool
22:55:00 <mjg> this is an e-mail i intend to send to linux-fsdevel, looking for comments regarding clarity of what i'm trying to say:
22:55:00 <bslsk05> ​ <no title>
22:56:00 <mjg> maybe i shold wrap it first :p
22:56:00 <mjg> that\s better
22:56:00 <bslsk05> ​ <no title>
22:58:00 <heat> mjg, I would just send a patch with a cover letter on top, maybe tagged RFC too
22:59:00 <heat> the text itself lgtm
22:59:00 <heat> ok heat@
23:00:00 <mjg> they are doing something werid with includes 'n shit
23:00:00 <mjg> it is not just a matter of adding ifdefs
23:08:00 <gog> hi
23:10:00 <moon-child> hi
23:15:00 <heat> mjg, well, the best way to get change is by sending a patch
23:15:00 <heat> so, if you're interested in something more than shitting on the lkml, that would be a good option
23:16:00 <zid>
23:16:00 <zid> Mornin
23:16:00 <gog> there are no buses in gensokyo
23:17:00 <zid> is that a parable
23:17:00 <gog> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
23:20:00 * moon-child finds a file in his home directory titled 'todo' with the text 'boy do we have waht you want'
23:20:00 * moon-child is not quite sure what to make of this
23:20:00 <zid> k just had a dumb moment, "Where the hell is my thing, *searches desk frantically*, I know I brought it upstairs. I remember taking it out and putting it in *this* pocket"
23:20:00 <zid> It was in that pocket.
23:20:00 <gog> nice
23:21:00 * kof123 echo 'wouldn't you like to know?' > ~/.plan
23:22:00 <kof123> this is like nethack error messages, but statuses with attitude
23:23:00 * gog hacks
23:32:00 <zid> you should get that cough looked at gog
23:34:00 * gog wheezes and collapses
23:36:00 <moon-child> 3:
23:37:00 * gog dies
23:37:00 * moon-child pets god
23:47:00 * klange pets god and walks backward into hell
23:48:00 <gog> hell yeah hail satan
23:48:00 <mjg> not on friday
23:48:00 <gog> it's not friday yet i have 13 minutes
23:48:00 <gog> 12
23:48:00 <mjg> apologies
23:48:00 <mjg> getting it out before midnight i see
23:50:00 <zid> no getting it out
23:50:00 <zid> this is a christian irc channel
23:51:00 <moon-child>
23:51:00 <bslsk05> ​'Harry Pollitt ((Live))' by The Limeliters - Topic (00:02:45)
23:52:00 <moon-child> timeless
23:55:00 * Ermine dispatches a team of inquisitors
23:55:00 <mjg> nobody expects spanish inquisition
23:55:00 <epony> you mean, a new browser tab
23:57:00 <epony> so far it's an armdev channel
23:57:00 <epony> with mostly burps ;-) and peek/pokes
23:58:00 <epony> why does it have to even be a spanish review..
23:58:00 <epony> you can get that anytime, just ask nicely