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Tuesday, 3 January 2023

00:48:00 <gog> hi
00:48:00 <kaichiuchi> hi
00:51:00 <heat> hi
00:52:00 <kaichiuchi> hi
01:16:00 <moon-child> hi
01:16:00 <jimbzy> hi
01:18:00 <gog> hi
01:18:00 <kaichiuchi> interesting
01:18:00 <kaichiuchi> someone got gcc 11.2 running on windows 98
01:18:00 <kaichiuchi> well, 11.1.0
01:18:00 <kaichiuchi> https://github.com/fsb4000/gcc-for-Windows98
01:20:00 <heat> twisted
01:20:00 <kaichiuchi> awesome*
01:21:00 <gog> terrifying
01:22:00 <mjg> jolly good sir
01:25:00 <jimbzy> That just made me think of DJGPP
01:26:00 <kaichiuchi> the latest stable is 7 years old sadly
01:26:00 <jimbzy> I think GCC was around 3.x back when I used it?
01:30:00 <jimbzy> Then I learned about cygwin and minGW.
01:31:00 <kaichiuchi> i wonder what the gcc version was when I was born
01:31:00 <kaichiuchi> ah, 2.6.x
01:32:00 <jimbzy> I think I predate gcc.
01:33:00 <kaichiuchi> '87 was the first beta release
01:33:00 <kaichiuchi> my brother predates gcc
01:34:00 <mjg> i predate gcc and feel bad about it
01:34:00 <jimbzy> Yeah, I'm Bell-breakup old... :(
01:34:00 <kaichiuchi> god i'm fucking young
01:36:00 <jimbzy> You don't have to lord it over us...
01:36:00 * kaichiuchi waves his staff
01:39:00 <heat> GCC 3.2.1 here
01:39:00 <heat> why are you all so old
01:39:00 <heat> outdated even
01:40:00 <mjg> gcc 2.9.5 for life
01:40:00 <kaichiuchi> idea for osdev forums: I'm <gcc version> years old!
01:41:00 <heat> idea for osdev forums: rm -rf /srv
01:41:00 <mjg> idea for osdev forums: migrate to discord
01:41:00 <kaichiuchi> second
01:41:00 <kaichiuchi> who even bothers with forums anymore
01:42:00 <kaichiuchi> I guess if you want something that you can just google and poof, it's there
01:42:00 <kaichiuchi> you're not sifting through 40000 pages of chat logs
01:48:00 <heat> gog, what does the B in BSD stand for
01:48:00 <gog> bondage
01:48:00 <heat> mjg, checks out?
01:49:00 <gog> gcc 1.13
01:50:00 <kaichiuchi> i still say someone should make a BASED
01:51:00 <gog> my new OS is going to be called CRINGE
01:51:00 <kaichiuchi> jimbzy: if you want to feel really old, someone on r/whatisthisthing posted a TV antenna
01:51:00 <kaichiuchi> so there's that.
01:59:00 <jimbzy> Hah
02:08:00 <jimbzy> My last analog TV antenna got repurposed for my radio scanner. Most of the frequencies I was interested in fit in the VHF band I, which is around 45-90MHz.
02:41:00 <epony> heat, the B in BSD stands for Berkeley where the CSRG worked to free UNIX
02:42:00 <epony> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSRG#History
02:42:00 <bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Computer Systems Research Group - Wikipedia
02:45:00 <epony> a couple of bits more capable people than the modern "complainer-whiner _devvelopers_devvelopers_devvelopers_devvelopers_"
02:48:00 <epony> it's also the place that gave you Berkeley RISC (in which you pledge your oath to new freedom and devote your souls)
02:48:00 <epony> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_RISC#Follow-ons
02:48:00 <bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Berkeley RISC - Wikipedia
02:51:00 <heat> bazinga
02:52:00 <epony> there is a considerable number of computer awards given to professors and alumni of that Bunch
02:54:00 <epony> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Berkeley#Computer_and_applied_sciences
02:54:00 <bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: University of California, Berkeley - Wikipedia
02:54:00 <epony> note SPICE being one of the more important projects
04:39:00 <heat> geist, got riscv smp
04:39:00 <heat> easy
04:40:00 <zid> heat now officially a risc simp?
04:41:00 <heat> always have been
04:41:00 <heat> RISCRISCRISCVIERISIDIRSIRIRISCRISCIRISCIRSCIRISARMARMARMARMARMAMRAMR
04:41:00 <zid> rust on risc when
04:41:00 <heat> that would be orgasmic
04:43:00 <Mutabah> zid: riscv?
04:44:00 <epony> when the prophet comes back to Earth with his 666 hairy furgins
04:44:00 <Mutabah> https://github.com/thepowersgang/rust_os/tree/master/Kernel/Core/arch/riscv64
04:44:00 <bslsk05> ​github.com: rust_os/Kernel/Core/arch/riscv64 at master · thepowersgang/rust_os · GitHub
04:44:00 <zid> Mutabah: Living the meme^Wdream
04:45:00 <Mutabah> closer to meme with that arch... although it was fun
04:45:00 <heat> this is a silly architecture for silly people
04:46:00 <epony> not enough silly cones
04:47:00 <epony> need more weak CPUs to make one average
04:48:00 <epony> you join them with thermal paste and now you got progress
04:48:00 <zid> Hey think of how many cool casio watches you'll have an OS for
04:49:00 <epony> citizen for the zen
05:02:00 <epony> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebras#Technology
05:02:00 <bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Cerebras - Wikipedia
05:15:00 <geist> heat: ah you're using SBI and whatnot for the TLB shootdowns?
05:15:00 <geist> and the cross cpu ipis?
05:15:00 <heat> i'm not using the tlb shootdown feature yet, just doing IPIs with SBI
05:16:00 <geist> ah and doing the IPI shootdown a la x86?
05:17:00 <heat> yes
05:17:00 <heat> a vintage shootdown
05:21:00 <epony> is it not called flushing the cache / table
05:22:00 <heat> also fwiw I think you need to have the vintage shootdown code
05:22:00 <heat> unless you explicitly require that SBI extension
05:23:00 <geist> yeah makes sense
05:23:00 <geist> though i think requiring it is not a terrible idea
05:29:00 <epony> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TLB_flush#Address-space_switch
05:29:00 <bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Translation lookaside buffer - Wikipedia
05:31:00 <heat> geist, idk, it's hard to gauge the presence of these extensions on systems
05:31:00 <geist> it's hard to find systems
05:31:00 <heat> facts
05:32:00 <heat> i've briefly considered porting onyx to riscv32 simply because they're that much more accessible
05:33:00 <geist> well fwiw it's basically identical as i'm sure you're aware
05:33:00 <epony> which is the same in emulation
05:34:00 <heat> yes but I have no answer to the lack of virtual address space
05:35:00 <geist> https://www.righto.com/2023/01/inside-8086-processors-instruction.html is pretty fascinating
05:35:00 <bslsk05> ​www.righto.com: Inside the 8086 processor's instruction prefetch circuitry
05:36:00 <heat> git grep -E "(PHYS_TO_VIRT)|(PAGE_TO_VIRT)" | wc -l
05:36:00 <heat> 117
05:36:00 <heat> I would need to replace most of these with some possible low-mem/high-mem logic
05:36:00 <epony> you can drop the middle to braces
05:36:00 <epony> "two"
05:37:00 <epony> and use ' quotation
05:37:00 <moon-child> riscv? lol fusion
05:38:00 <epony> not lol, but con fusion
05:39:00 <heat> hm?
05:41:00 <epony> who needs hardware.. https://wiki.qemu.org/Documentation/Platforms/RISCV
05:41:00 <bslsk05> ​wiki.qemu.org: Documentation/Platforms/RISCV - QEMU
05:43:00 <geist> heat: no idea
05:44:00 <heat> anyway re: 32-bit, it should port fine if I drop the 64-bit assumptions in most places
05:44:00 <geist> yeah
05:44:00 <heat> some types may hurt, but I would assume the memory thing will bite me
05:45:00 <geist> yeah it's more of a 32bit vs 64bit thing. if you haven'tported to 32bit before then that will be most of the problem
05:45:00 <heat> i don't know if I want to infect it with horrible highmem stuff
05:45:00 <heat> being able to rely on a direct map of memory is very nice
05:46:00 <geist> yeah
05:46:00 <geist> for LK i just do a 2:2 split in that case and limit the amount of physical ram to 1GB
05:47:00 <heat> and otoh I have perfectly fine available arm64 hardware that's going to be much faster
08:48:00 <ddevault> the more I work with EFI the less I hate it
08:49:00 <Mutabah> That's stockholm syndrome
08:49:00 <ddevault> wstr is bad
08:49:00 <ddevault> PE/COFF is bad
08:49:00 <Mutabah> GUIDs are ... meh?
08:50:00 <ddevault> some services are dumb
08:50:00 <ddevault> rest is pgood
08:50:00 <Mutabah> Yeah.
08:50:00 <Mutabah> It's what makes me sad about UEFI...
08:50:00 <Mutabah> It has a lot of great ideas, but some glaring warts
08:50:00 <ddevault> spec is pgood too
08:51:00 <Mutabah> E.g. GPT - Guids everywhere!...
08:51:00 <ddevault> guids are fine
08:51:00 <Mutabah> but none of those GUID fields are "filesystem format"
08:51:00 <Mutabah> (I like the idea of using GUIDs, even if they can be a pain)
08:51:00 <\Test_User> requiring a fat partition is meh, requiring that no one invents a new disk partitioning scheme if they still want to boot is meh
08:52:00 <ddevault> EFI has a weird GUID format though
08:52:00 <ddevault> fwiw I don't think the EFI spec requires FAT
08:54:00 <Mutabah> I think the ESP has to be FAT?
08:54:00 <Mutabah> well.. for maximum compatability
08:55:00 <ddevault> yeah in practice it's FAT
08:55:00 <ddevault> but I don't think it has to be, unless I'm not finding the relevant parts of the spec
08:55:00 <ddevault> oh no
08:56:00 <ddevault> FAT is required
10:10:00 <ddevault> does ARM provide some kind of always-available timer I can use for context switching or will I have to implement drivers for SoC-specific clock hardware
10:12:00 <j`ey> look up CNTFREQ_EL0, CNYVCT_EL0 et al
10:12:00 <ddevault> ty
10:45:00 <ddevault> looks like firefox isn't having it with the ARM PDF today
11:30:00 <Ermine> ddevault: the same one on which zathura failed recently?
11:30:00 <ddevault> yeah
11:30:00 <ddevault> xpdf always opens it but has awful UX
11:30:00 <ddevault> firefox opens it sometimes and is a bit better
11:45:00 <kaichiuchi> oh wow
11:45:00 <kaichiuchi> i3-gaps got merged with i3
11:45:00 <kaichiuchi> about time
12:58:00 <ddevault> quite enjoying the aarch64 port work
12:58:00 <ddevault> at least once the bullshit was done with
12:59:00 <ddevault> probably will end up at about 3,000 lines per arch (8,000 lines of portable code)
13:17:00 <sham1> kaichiuchi: it's only been, what, a decade? Or maybe half? Point being, finally
13:22:00 <kaichiuchi> a decade my guess
13:23:00 <kaichiuchi> i do like i3
13:25:00 <Ermine> ddevault: cool!
13:52:00 <heat> ddevault, 3kloc for a single arch is remarkably small
13:53:00 <ddevault> https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/helios
13:53:00 <bslsk05> ​git.sr.ht: ~sircmpwn/helios - sourcehut git
13:53:00 <heat> I've got almost 10KLOC in x86 code alone
13:53:00 <ddevault> see files with +x86_64 or +aarch64 in the path for arch-specific code if you're curious
13:53:00 <ddevault> note this is a microkernel
13:53:00 <ddevault> userspace also has some arch-specific code
13:53:00 <ddevault> nowhere near 10kloc in total though
13:53:00 <ddevault> hare tends to lend itself to brevity
13:54:00 <ddevault> well, most of the time.
13:54:00 <heat> riscv, as the trashy architecture it is, has 4KLOC
13:54:00 <ddevault> plus around 400 lines of assembly per arch
13:59:00 <ddevault> well, might want to clarify
13:59:00 <ddevault> these figures don't include the bootloader
13:59:00 <ddevault> nor portable code which happens to only be used by one arch, like the FDT parser
14:15:00 <heat> yeah same
14:15:00 <heat> actually I wasn't including the headers, I should do that
14:18:00 <heat> 4905K for riscv64, 11K for x86_64
14:20:00 <heat> s/4905K/5K/g
14:20:00 <heat> me dumb dumb
14:23:00 <Andrew> So I was registering for an account and I answered "The program first loaded off of a disk when booting your computer is known as a" with "bootloader"... it wants "boot loader" lol
14:33:00 <heat> ddevault, do you have a riscv system with musl handy? I've noticed you wrote part of the riscv code and I want to test something
14:36:00 <ddevault> heat: send me an email and I'll get back to you, sir@cmpwn.com
14:36:00 <ddevault> hour or so of setup overhead
14:36:00 <ddevault> you can also quite easily set up a riscv alpine chroot with qemu-user
14:37:00 <heat> does qemu-user support the full range of clone(2) arguments?
14:47:00 <heat> j`ey, hello CEO of linux, what is this? https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/latest/source/kernel/fork.c#L2784
14:47:00 <bslsk05> ​elixir.bootlin.com: fork.c - kernel/fork.c - Linux source code (v6.1.2) - Bootlin
14:48:00 <j`ey> Architecture has tls passed as the 4th argument of clone(2) not the 5th one.
14:48:00 <heat> i know, i'm asking the why
14:49:00 <j`ey> you asked what :P
14:49:00 <heat> 4 different clone signatures????
14:49:00 <j`ey> no idea!
14:49:00 <j`ey> ABI issues.. / accidents? idk
14:51:00 <heat> arm, arm64, riscv, x86 all have CLONE_BACKWARDS except for x86_64, which has none of these
14:52:00 <heat> s390 has BACKWARDS2, microblaze has BACKWARDS3
14:56:00 <Ermine> Where can one find microblaze devices?
15:14:00 <heat> ddevault, ok just tested with a small dash compile on qemu-user, thanks for the idea
15:14:00 <ddevault> np
15:15:00 <heat> how do you send patches? git send-email to the ML?
15:16:00 <kaichiuchi> hi
15:42:00 <Ermine> \o/
17:07:00 <epony> that's not very nice but everyone got to use some low quality something Jan03 1052<ddevault> fwiw I don't think the EFI spec requireJan03 1052<ddevault> fwiw I don't think the EFI spec requires FAT
17:08:00 <epony> many arm-SoC devices require some "fat" partition to boot too
17:10:00 <epony> the DOS artefacts and thinkos are going to be carried forward until someone knocks that into UNIX-compatible repacement
17:12:00 <epony> poopety poop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFI_system_partition#Overview
17:12:00 <bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: EFI system partition - Wikipedia
17:14:00 <epony> "The EFI system partition is formatted with a file system whose specification is based on the FAT file system and maintained as part of the UEFI specification; therefore, the file system specification is independent from the original FAT specification." --I like how this says nothing.
17:14:00 <epony> now FAT later THIN
17:14:00 <Ermine> You can edit that.
17:15:00 <epony> supposedly you can edit your newspeak-BIOS/*EFI too
17:16:00 <Ermine> Wdy,
17:16:00 <Ermine> Wdym
17:16:00 <epony> the reality: you get what the board design technology team picked as firmware chip vendor specification in some "former" and unkempt version
17:17:00 <epony> and.. later better ;-) as usual with 1-2 years of minimal tweaks like a digit here or an addition in a table there to fix the "stupid assumptions of fixed enumeration of hardware"
17:20:00 <kaichiuchi> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/yrxUtdlx/1672766416.JPG
17:20:00 <kaichiuchi> this is why UNIX-HATERS is still partially relevant
17:20:00 <epony> it isn't ;-)
17:21:00 <epony> that's a bunch of LISP loonies
17:21:00 <epony> who wnat single address space application data and code mixed and wiping each others brains
17:22:00 <epony> you can't get stupider than that.. suppose your microprocessor executed data as instructions..
17:22:00 <epony> yep, that's the level of "unix-haters" club of "can't find new character generators aesthetic enough for MY TASTE"
17:24:00 <Ermine> kaichiuchi: DMR was right in his preface of this: there are valid points, but they are hidden under piles of insults and whatnot.
17:24:00 <kaichiuchi> yeah
17:25:00 <epony> it's not an insult if you "pay and expect quality"
17:25:00 <epony> UNIX was not cheap
17:25:00 <epony> but LISP machines were MORE EXPENSIVE and CRAPPIER
17:25:00 <epony> so envy and mini-achievement syndrome
17:26:00 <epony> it's more like "we like some other commercial simplified adapted and dumbified work, because we can't have our ideal systems, so you will get criticism until you become our ideal system, now work on our command"
17:26:00 <Ermine> Sendmail chapter is true. Sendmail crappiness is why DJB made qmail
17:27:00 <epony> of course, applications can do whatever they like and have needs for the system
17:27:00 <kaichiuchi> Ermine: I think at least 40% (pulled out of my ass) of this document is still relevant
17:27:00 <epony> "from the system"
17:27:00 <epony> if the system gets the needs of the applications supported and then the applications do stupid things like reserve all memory and start doing in application space memory management, what can you expect.. zero overhead?"
17:28:00 <kaichiuchi> the file system chapter is completely obsolete
17:28:00 <Ermine> kaichiuchi: I don't think relevance level is that high. Also, there's a non-trivial of controversial stuff (like the chapter on user friendliness)
17:29:00 <gog> mewe
17:30:00 <kaichiuchi> again, it depends
17:30:00 <epony> it's an old commercial book in the anti-UNIX philosophy club
17:31:00 <kaichiuchi> there’s a reason there’s only one unix in commercial use for the general public (mac)
17:31:00 <heat> unix fucking sucks but no one is ready for that conversation
17:31:00 <kaichiuchi> yeah i’m afraid of this war
17:32:00 <epony> well you can do better than that, that's what Linux tries to do
17:32:00 <heat> it's user hostile because programmers are user hostile
17:32:00 <epony> and it almost does not suck, but the version 1 of everything is brain-damaged
17:32:00 <epony> no such thing
17:32:00 <Ermine> OTOH, skarnet said wise thing, something: "that's why I don't agree with the Unix haters - we don't agree on the definition of the term even"
17:32:00 <heat> "just use the command line" - nerds who use the command line for a living
17:32:00 <epony> programmers are users of their programs
17:32:00 <kaichiuchi> Linux will never make it on the desktop
17:32:00 <gog> fuck users
17:32:00 <kaichiuchi> forever
17:32:00 <gog> but but
17:32:00 <Ermine> gog: may I pet you
17:32:00 <gog> this is the year
17:32:00 <gog> Ermine: yes
17:33:00 * Ermine pets gog
17:33:00 * gog prr
17:33:00 <epony> and are friendly to each other, because there is no other way to help diagnose and solve problems
17:33:00 <heat> i don't care what kind of ptsd experiences you have, windows and macOS just fucking work
17:33:00 <gog> the NT kernel is good actually
17:33:00 <epony> you're an idiot
17:33:00 <kaichiuchi> i agree
17:33:00 <heat> you don't need to manually assemble your system like in linux
17:33:00 <heat> even ubuntu needs hand guidance for basic shit
17:33:00 <heat> (it's not just arch, which I do use, btw)
17:33:00 <kaichiuchi> my dad uses ubuntu and he’s 75
17:34:00 <heat> i bet your dad doesn't play video games
17:34:00 <kaichiuchi> but how much effort do you think i put into making it just work for him
17:34:00 <gog> i do play video games on linux and it's ok mostly
17:34:00 <heat> much
17:34:00 <epony> this argument is "integration is not well integrated" and you're using a non-integrated "assembly" (bundling) of non-integrated parts
17:34:00 <kaichiuchi> it took multiple days to make it super easy for him
17:34:00 <Ermine> heat: the best system for gaming is still Windows
17:34:00 <heat> absolutely
17:34:00 <kaichiuchi> i refuse to play games on Linux
17:34:00 <heat> or productivity tasks
17:34:00 <gog> i refuse to play games on Windows
17:34:00 <heat> people that need to get shit done don't use linux
17:34:00 <epony> so, nobody is guilty for not having that integration, that's how GNU rolls the dice
17:34:00 <jbowen> lol
17:34:00 <gog> i use Windows for work
17:34:00 <heat> when I have an important interview, I use windows
17:34:00 <Ermine> heat: for everything else I use linux
17:35:00 <epony> they though piecemeal development with extras is going to be superior and everyone will adopt that, and it kind of happened
17:35:00 <jbowen> Yeah, I don't have any Windows devices; everything runs Linux or BSD
17:35:00 <kaichiuchi> there’s a reason Linux has not taken over, in any reasonable way, the desktop space
17:35:00 <gog> the only actual complaint i have is that i can't get my HDMI port to work in xorg without having to log out and log back into my session
17:35:00 <gog> which is fucking nonsense
17:35:00 <kaichiuchi> unless you are a nerd
17:35:00 <kaichiuchi> and the reason for that is cultural
17:35:00 <heat> one of my interviewers a year ago ran late to the interview because linux audio
17:35:00 <Ermine> Also, https://drewdevault.com/2021/12/05/What-desktop-Linux-needs.html
17:35:00 <bslsk05> ​drewdevault.com: What desktop Linux needs to succeed in the mainstream
17:36:00 <heat> he also had multiple issues with basic shit like bluetooth headphones
17:36:00 <kaichiuchi> it’s simple
17:36:00 <jbowen> There are never Windows issues
17:36:00 <kaichiuchi> if you have to open a terminal
17:36:00 <kaichiuchi> you
17:36:00 <kaichiuchi> failed
17:36:00 <zid> windows issues are normalized
17:36:00 <kaichiuchi> you should NEVER EVER EVER have to open a terminal and type commands to change something
17:36:00 <heat> 100%
17:36:00 <jbowen> lol
17:36:00 <gog> normalize having issues
17:36:00 <epony> commercial adapted systems btw, are stemmping from DOS which is a rework of CP/M which is an adapted primitive UNIX clone, that's on the DOS side, and on the MAC side, things are more UNIX-like but intentionally not UNIX
17:36:00 <Ermine> kaichiuchi: I concur
17:36:00 <gog> normalize being slightly broken
17:36:00 <zid> windows did it, so can you
17:37:00 <kaichiuchi> you can lol all you want but you’re in the 2% of people on this planet
17:37:00 <epony> so the commercial systems are not that much different, only the are incompatible and dumbified variants
17:37:00 <kaichiuchi> there’s nothing wrong with making a system usable for users, and programmers
17:37:00 <kaichiuchi> because they’re the same thing
17:37:00 <epony> but they have tighter integration
17:37:00 <heat> i have many friends that don't know how to use a computer besides basic shit like "use the web browser, use windows 10's email client to send email, download thing, open in microsoft office"
17:37:00 <epony> so you're comparing integration "end result"
17:38:00 <kaichiuchi> right
17:38:00 <zid> heat: good news, they're optimizing for those people
17:38:00 <heat> and these are 20 year olds
17:38:00 <jbowen> Sure, give them a ChromeOS device
17:38:00 <zid> which is why 'changing your ip' is now behind 18 UI steps
17:38:00 <epony> rather than system design and system implementation and system capabilities / services
17:38:00 <heat> people don't need to change their ip
17:38:00 <heat> nerds do
17:38:00 <zid> subtract 3 from current_version and that's how many generations of UI you need to go through
17:38:00 <Ermine> kaichiuchi: I think programmers have larger bullshit tolerance treshold. I tolerate bugs that happen on my linux here and there, but no way my mom or granny are going to use this
17:38:00 <heat> normal people do not need to open the windows settings
17:39:00 <kaichiuchi> imagine going to a doctor and they hand you the chemical formula for the medicine you need and they say “do it yourself”
17:39:00 <kaichiuchi> i want to not suffer thanks
17:39:00 <epony> now, there is an old saying which goes about "idiots" too and it's roughly like this: "If you design your system to be fool proof and idiot proof and perfectly fool-idiot proof, only that kind of users you will get"
17:39:00 <kaichiuchi> Ermine: but you shouldn’t tolerate it either
17:40:00 <ddevault> heat: yes, send patches via email to the mailing list
17:40:00 <epony> which is translated into "users are barred from system development"
17:40:00 <kaichiuchi> i get really upset if something like my sound suddenly stops working a la heat’s interviewer
17:40:00 <heat> imagine going to a doctor and he needs help figuring out what you have so he gives you a manual so you two start figuring things out
17:40:00 <gog> honestly i would use windows if it wasn't possible at any moment that they'll start using it as an advertising platform
17:40:00 <kaichiuchi> they already do
17:40:00 <gog> there you go
17:40:00 <heat> ddevault, yeah figured it out, thanks anyway
17:40:00 <kaichiuchi> i can’t say that windows is turning out great either
17:40:00 <gog> i don't want to be marketed at anymore than i already am
17:40:00 <epony> that's why they accept "bug reports and whine reports" and resolve them with "if you're a larger business you will pay us, otherwise wait your turn.. indefinitely"
17:40:00 <heat> ddevault, (it's a patch implementing vfork for riscv, if you want to try it out)
17:40:00 <kaichiuchi> no i agree
17:41:00 <zid> My current plan is to use w7 until it physically stops being possible
17:41:00 <kaichiuchi> also the state of affairs is bizarre
17:41:00 <Ermine> kaichiuchi: I've got used to them, and really fatal stuff happens really rarely. Also there's a lot of bullshit I don't want to tolerate on Windows
17:41:00 <zid> then become a monk
17:41:00 <kaichiuchi> I compiled the minecraft-server port on BSD
17:41:00 <heat> lmao bsd
17:41:00 <kaichiuchi> some dependency required cups
17:41:00 <epony> and that practice has taught the "unix-haters" group to "complain and whine" ;-) but not participate and also, demand their "application address space system designs with a user interface that is convenient"
17:41:00 <kaichiuchi> i cried
17:41:00 <zid> Sounds like BSD needs USE flag.
17:42:00 <heat> YALL NEED SOME GENTOO???
17:42:00 <kaichiuchi> do you think it’s any better with a USE flag?
17:42:00 <kaichiuchi> i don’t think so
17:42:00 <heat> imagining your mom needing to compile software to install things
17:42:00 <zid> Imagine how much better computers would be
17:42:00 <kaichiuchi> shut up
17:43:00 <gog> if my wife can do it so can your mom
17:43:00 <heat> "kaichiuchi, what's -O3 -march=native and why do these people online tell me to use it?"
17:43:00 <zid> Users are always the problem, especially shit users
17:43:00 <zid> they get pandered to
17:43:00 <kaichiuchi> they’re not the problem
17:43:00 <kaichiuchi> they’re the whole point
17:43:00 <kaichiuchi> .
17:43:00 <Ermine> Actually, end users don't care whether their system is UNIX or not. Systems just need to help people satisfy their needs
17:43:00 <zid> kaichiuchi thinks web 3.0 is the best thing ever
17:43:00 <kaichiuchi> including yourself
17:43:00 <heat> zid trolling
17:43:00 <jbowen> Your mom can learn about compiler optimizations
17:43:00 <zid> heat: am not trolling
17:44:00 <kaichiuchi> here’s the thing
17:44:00 <heat> Ermine, 100%
17:44:00 <kaichiuchi> really good products don’t require you to know anything about their internals
17:44:00 <Ermine> kaichiuchi: 200%
17:44:00 <kaichiuchi> now, you can fuck with it if you want to
17:44:00 <kaichiuchi> you should have that right
17:44:00 <heat> Ermine, while some people bikeshed about purity and simplicity (cough cough skarnet cough cough musl), other people build products
17:44:00 <kof123> "imagine going to a doctor" and noone knows what the ingredients are, its top secret. im confused, are we arguing for or against witch doctors as opposed to "science" ?
17:45:00 <epony> the point is, neither GNU, nor Linux kernel in the middle of it, are tightly integrated and same "cohesive" developer designs software releases
17:45:00 <kof123> (from posted excerpt)
17:45:00 <epony> so you need better standards and better standards compliance
17:45:00 <heat> kof123, you don't have the chemical formula for much of your medicina :))
17:45:00 <heat> medicine*
17:45:00 <kof123> yes, so the science argument is bunk
17:45:00 <kaichiuchi> i have a mac for one reason
17:45:00 <kaichiuchi> it’s a unix that works
17:45:00 <epony> and that is missing, because commerce does not inform you how it designs applications internally (but there is tight integration and their own internal standards on this peace-meal development)
17:46:00 <kaichiuchi> kof123: you’re taking it too literally
17:46:00 <kof123> blaming the user lol
17:46:00 <kof123> that was quick lol
17:46:00 <kof123> unity of opposites FTW
17:46:00 <heat> wha
17:46:00 <epony> but it's not a unix, this "mac" is a mach which is a different kernel
17:46:00 <kaichiuchi> uh?
17:46:00 <epony> and its interfaces are not the same neither its operation
17:46:00 <kaichiuchi> the point is nerds want the whole world to be an IKEA store
17:46:00 <kaichiuchi> it doesn’t work
17:46:00 <epony> so it's more like "a HURD" done by commerce
17:47:00 <epony> a butt-hurd
17:47:00 <jbowen> And macs try really hard to hide the unix-y bits
17:47:00 <kaichiuchi> that’s correct
17:47:00 <Ermine> heat: I still support both. I still care about musl and skaware. At least skarnet cares about both simplicity and functionality.
17:47:00 <epony> that's incorrect
17:47:00 <kaichiuchi> that’s what SHOULD happen
17:47:00 <heat> they do not? open the terminal?
17:47:00 <epony> mac is not unix
17:47:00 <heat> they are just not hopelessly broken
17:47:00 <heat> and actually have aesthetic
17:47:00 <jbowen> lol
17:47:00 <epony> it's a mashup of non-unix with unix-descendant userland
17:47:00 <heat> linux DEs are ugly as far and are broken as fuck
17:47:00 <kaichiuchi> heat: i think he means that mom and dad don’t know anything about a terminal or unix
17:47:00 <epony> none of which are unix
17:48:00 <epony> and it lacks all unix properties
17:48:00 <heat> s/far/fuck/g typo much
17:48:00 <jbowen> If your idea of aesthetic is some polly pocket bullshit
17:48:00 <kaichiuchi> not that we can’t get access
17:48:00 <epony> like open designs and standards compliant interfaces
17:48:00 <epony> so it's a windows-like commercial derivative
17:48:00 <gog> my whole aesthetic is polly pocket bullshit
17:48:00 <heat> jbowen, the market thinks I'm right /shrug
17:48:00 <kaichiuchi> put it this way
17:48:00 <kof123> kaichiuchi: in fairness, whatever ye bind. people will like what reflects them. any single answer is bunk.
17:48:00 <Ermine> Also, Unix is such an underdefined system so every behaviour of any Unix-like system out there is considered broken by someone
17:48:00 <heat> the 300000 r/unixporn macOS clones also think I'm right
17:49:00 <epony> there is really no doffirence between DOS/WIN and DOS/MAC
17:49:00 <kaichiuchi> would you buy a car or build your own
17:49:00 <kof123> kaichiuchi: is another way to put that. any separation of science and religion is in the eye of the beholder
17:49:00 <kof123> or only modern times
17:49:00 <kof123> (from the quote)
17:49:00 <gog> kaichiuchi: i would ride public transportation
17:49:00 <kof123> of course people with different philosphies will disagree
17:49:00 <kof123> monotheism does not work
17:49:00 <kof123> does not exist
17:49:00 <gog> buszinga
17:49:00 <jbowen> Getting a bunch of morons to agree with something isn't difficult; look at US politics
17:49:00 <kaichiuchi> there you go again
17:49:00 <Ermine> heat: re DEs, Plasma is good actually
17:49:00 <kaichiuchi> you’re calling users morons
17:49:00 <Ermine> KDE connect is a pure gold
17:49:00 <kaichiuchi> some of them actually are, yes
17:50:00 <epony> UNIX is defined, as system interfaces and standards that appeared AFTER it was done by the original laboratory work (Research UNIX)
17:50:00 <kaichiuchi> but someone who says “i want to plug it in and it just fucking works” is not wrong
17:50:00 <gog> i love kdeconnect but it does something weird with google messages now and starts new conversations with me when i try to reply from my computer
17:50:00 <epony> it's also a realisation of the C language
17:50:00 <heat> Ermine, my plasma spazzes out every hour or so
17:50:00 <kaichiuchi> when you’re delivering a product it should be stable and not complicated whatsoever
17:50:00 <zid> >kde >qt >C++
17:50:00 <zid> Found your problem
17:50:00 <Ermine> (and KDE Connect happened earlier than analoguous Windows app)
17:51:00 <heat> this is using a fucking i915 driver, the bestest openest sourceiest driver
17:51:00 <Ermine> heat: at least Nate tries to convince devs to fix bugs
17:51:00 <gog> breh use modesetting
17:51:00 <kaichiuchi> i like nate
17:51:00 <gog> 915 is dead
17:51:00 <heat> also has a bug sometimes where I alt-tab and things start scrolling in the new window
17:51:00 <epony> and the other important property of UNIX is that it's comprised of tools which are languages and use compiler construction toolkits internally
17:51:00 <epony> which is not how an application extensions to DOS or MACH work
17:51:00 <Ermine> heat: I have issues with i1915 too. But my main PC runs with amd and Plasma does not crash on it)
17:52:00 <kaichiuchi> god i couldn’t imagine shipping one of our products to customers
17:52:00 <kaichiuchi> with the idea that they have to know the internal s
17:52:00 <epony> and the NT kernel is not some special unique "superior technology" either, it's just a mix between micro-kernels and traditional kernels for parts of the system
17:52:00 <epony> it crashes a lot too
17:52:00 <kof123> ^^^ thats not a problem, but projecting this on everyone else is "have to know the internals"
17:52:00 <epony> mach crashes too
17:52:00 <kof123> different markets, different targets
17:52:00 <kof123> the one size fits all is the devil
17:52:00 <epony> yep, that's a general conclusions, different target audiences
17:52:00 <kaichiuchi> “first step: open the case and flip 4 dip switches, upload the firmware, smash your head against the wall”
17:53:00 <kaichiuchi> vs. “connect it and it works”
17:53:00 <kof123> except when it breaks, pay me unlimited $$$$$ as much i say because you aren't allowed to know how it works . again, not a proble, but this is economics, not technological arguments
17:53:00 <epony> you get however zero options to design a language and a complex system on top of a commercial adapted and brain-damaged "interests of the business" released as "end-user-product"
17:53:00 <kof123> *prbolem
17:53:00 <kaichiuchi> kof123: my point is you can satisfy a plethora of different user demographics in OS space, albeit with time
17:54:00 <epony> that's why languages are developed on UNIX
17:54:00 <kof123> eh, agree to disagree. try to please everyone noone is happy
17:54:00 <epony> it's an open and accessible specification oriented simple to extend and work with engineering version of a system
17:55:00 <kaichiuchi> if you like Linux distributions and their various softwares, fine
17:55:00 <heat> macOS pleases nerds and normal people
17:55:00 <kaichiuchi> but you’re in the 2%
17:55:00 <epony> languages developed on WIN/DOS and MAC/DOS are pretty lame
17:55:00 <kof123> im not defending that, but again, appeal to authority fallacy (some magical wisdom of crowds -- witch doctoring)
17:55:00 <kaichiuchi> heat: indeed
17:55:00 <epony> as they address the needs of users of commerce for in application development
17:55:00 <kaichiuchi> that’s not appeal to authority
17:55:00 <kof123> it is
17:55:00 <epony> you're detracting this into sociology, that's nonsensical
17:56:00 <epony> it's about system specifications and engineering and integration
17:56:00 <kof123> ^^^ anyway got to get some work done
17:56:00 <kaichiuchi> good engineering practices don’t involve anything like this
17:56:00 <gog> i'm gonna go eat sushi
17:56:00 <kof123> its appeal to market perhaps, which again, is not a technological argument, it is politics or economics or sociology etc.
17:56:00 <kaichiuchi> once you have to open a terminal for any reason windows and macos are infinitely superior
17:57:00 <Ermine> Actually if WinXP still was supported I woulnd'nt care about Linux
17:57:00 <epony> nope
17:57:00 <Ermine> gog: bon appetit
17:57:00 <Ermine> yep
17:57:00 <epony> that's where you land on a set of problems
17:57:00 <kaichiuchi> my mom would not be able to use a terminal
17:57:00 <epony> because it's non-standard and "commericla self-significant convention that is not even carried internally consistently"
17:57:00 <kaichiuchi> how do you propose to handle that?
17:58:00 <epony> given that childern are like their parents..
17:58:00 <epony> just use your applications that make you happy
17:58:00 <Ermine> kaichiuchi: otoh, terminals are not that bad
17:58:00 <epony> for some people, the engineering version is mandatory
17:58:00 <kaichiuchi> then you’re not thinking in the context of people who don’t want to know 400 commands
17:59:00 <kaichiuchi> we do because we are nerds
17:59:00 <kaichiuchi> alternatively we can support both
17:59:00 <epony> for other people, the convenient "some variant of whatever inconsistency internally that looks similar as a themed interface is preferential"
17:59:00 <kaichiuchi> there’s nothing wrong with having both CLI and GUI interfaces
17:59:00 <epony> but you can't
17:59:00 <kaichiuchi> absolutely nothing
17:59:00 <epony> because commercial systems are "owning things and chaning them to not be compatible on purpose"
17:59:00 <epony> changing
18:00:00 <kaichiuchi> what I’m really rallying against is this notion that you can’t have your cake and eat it too
18:00:00 <epony> so think now about GNU for a moment
18:00:00 <Ermine> kaichiuchi: I mean, it would be good if user could use GUI without invoking terminal for doing maintenance, but they could use terminal to do their daily tasks if they wanted to.
18:00:00 <epony> GNU is extending the UNIX standardisation with it whimsical extras
18:00:00 <kaichiuchi> Ermine: right, i fully agree
18:00:00 <epony> is that not a "comfy system extension that detracts you from baseline standardisation into a commercial-like dependence"?
18:00:00 <kaichiuchi> i don’t necessarily HAVE to use a terminal on mac
18:00:00 <kaichiuchi> but the option is there
18:01:00 <kaichiuchi> and that’s nice
18:01:00 <epony> and then there are people who complain UNIX is divergent and incompatible
18:01:00 <epony> it's the commerce land, that does that
18:01:00 <kaichiuchi> but there’s this disarray of extremes
18:01:00 <epony> the engineering parts are "fix this and make it standard cause we have no time to fix it all the time"
18:01:00 <kaichiuchi> either you are 100% DIY, or you’re 100% for the user
18:01:00 <kaichiuchi> the sad thing is you really can integrate both
18:02:00 <Ermine> hot take, any standard is bad because it's called so
18:02:00 <kaichiuchi> I’m very much so a person from an engineering standpoint who tries to integrate as many possible workflows as possible
18:02:00 <kaichiuchi> you want to use CLI? go for it
18:03:00 <kaichiuchi> there’s also a GUI application which may be easier for non-technical users
18:03:00 <kaichiuchi> because CLI is technical to 99% of humanity
18:03:00 <kaichiuchi> i don’t know anything about gardening, doesn’t make me a moron
18:04:00 <Ermine> Btw I forgor what is the subject of this discussion
18:04:00 <heat> unix hard
18:05:00 <kof123> "epony: it's the commerce land, that does that" djb cr.yp.to has a quote about this lol it turns out they WANT incompatibilities lol
18:05:00 <kaichiuchi> i’m not saying this is what you said, just a general statement, but the moment a developer says “the user is a moron” immediately
18:05:00 <kaichiuchi> there’s a 70% chance you are the problem
18:05:00 <epony> yes commerce invents incompatibilities out of their need to dominate and control a market segment
18:06:00 <epony> it's normal, just believing it's a superior system is foolish
18:06:00 <kaichiuchi> some users ARE, in fact, morons
18:06:00 <kof123> seriously, these are philosophy questions, needs a deeper analysis for me to take seriously. these are the ideas/theories, these are the in practice/known implementations. and then be able to examine whether ideas were actually followed, sidetracked, replaced, etc.
18:06:00 <kaichiuchi> i was in retail for 10 years i’ve seen a wealth of stupid people
18:06:00 <Ermine> DJB made his own protocol for emailing. So commercial, many money
18:06:00 <kaichiuchi> but all of them can use their android and iphones and apple watches
18:06:00 <epony> retail is a segment of commerce, what do you expect
18:06:00 <kaichiuchi> and that didn’t come from making substandard interfaces
18:07:00 <epony> "that's how the cookie cumbles, that's how the stock market crashes, that's how the potato mashes" --a user of narcotics (some Burrows)
18:07:00 <kaichiuchi> when my dad asks me a question
18:07:00 <kof123> just defining xyz as "in practice" is as meaningless as an idea with no known implementations IMO need to find where it went wrong, or is the idea irredeemable etc. implementations come and go, the idea either survives or not
18:07:00 <kaichiuchi> i know it’s a question he wouldn’t have asked if he were on windows
18:08:00 <kaichiuchi> “hey why do i have to type in my password to print something?”
18:08:00 <kaichiuchi> good question
18:08:00 <kaichiuchi> i think even linus bitched about this once
18:08:00 <epony> on commercial systems, you get "packaging" and "wrapping" or 'theming' and 'tweaks' questions
18:08:00 <epony> which lead you into requirements to adjust the system and you don't get the engineering version, so you're stuck
18:09:00 <epony> that's the base premise for why it's not suitable for engineering work (on the system itself), it's suitable for applications use (not touching the system but files and data)
18:09:00 <epony> an engineering system can do that too
18:10:00 <Ermine> heat: btw why are you doing Unix?
18:10:00 <epony> only it does not make money from incompatibilities and forced upgrades that "uniformly" and "en masse"
18:11:00 <epony> over time you see the commercial systems becoming like the engineering variants from which they draw their re-designs
18:11:00 <epony> if there are 3 conventions to end lines of text in a file / stream, 2 of them are wrong
18:13:00 <epony> so, designing slightly incompatible, slightly sub-par consumer products, you get to shove on top of them the incompatible system, and the incompatible applications and gain billions of dollars for being 'smart' and 'inventive' retard
18:13:00 <epony> that's what is rewarded in a system designed about consumerism
18:13:00 <heat> because I kinda like it
18:14:00 <kof123> i should also point out by the logic previously stated, doctors cannot be trusted, they are only a small % of the population
18:14:00 <epony> welcome to the unix-haters club then, it's kind of disbanded with the demise of the usenet, but it lives in LISP and WIN/MAC communities
18:14:00 <heat> no one said anything about trust
18:14:00 <kaichiuchi> kof123: they’re all you’ve got
18:14:00 <epony> in reality it's the fork (exec) vs span (reserve0
18:15:00 <kaichiuchi> the alternative is to take something random off the shelf and potentially kill yourself by accident
18:15:00 <epony> thus is impossible in LISP
18:15:00 <epony> trust is impossible
18:15:00 <epony> because code is mutated by data, so it's not suitable for trust
18:16:00 <epony> and you see the level of "40 years of viruses" on the commercial systems converting them to national scale cryptolocker comicotragic disasters
18:16:00 <epony> (SCADA is next after that)
18:16:00 <kof123> heat: the point is arguing "better" as % of population is bunk/a smear campaign
18:16:00 <kof123> and completely non-scientific
18:16:00 <epony> it's a sales pitch instrument
18:16:00 <kof123> entirely image/marketing
18:16:00 <kof123> ^^^
18:17:00 <Ermine> Oh this lisp-written windpows
18:17:00 <heat> kof123, when has user experience ever been scientific?
18:17:00 <heat> it's all opinion based
18:17:00 <kof123> yes, but that excerpt claimed that. anyways...
18:17:00 <epony> that's how commerce work, irrationally, as hearsay, as feature-bundles, as comfy-views, as application-abundance etc..
18:17:00 <kof123> that doesn't deny other arguments, but authors of that book are engaging in smears
18:18:00 <Ermine> Oh those consumerists who like stuff that lets them to get their shit done
18:18:00 <epony> application authors get shafted by Apple and Microsoft (and Google and Amazon.. and Facebook) routinely
18:18:00 <heat> the vast majority's opinion drives software demand, as it drives medical demand, etc
18:18:00 <epony> it pulls the rug below the feet of programming languages and tools developers too
18:19:00 <kaichiuchi> for me it’s not even opinion
18:19:00 <epony> that's the demise and subsumption of Borland into .Net
18:19:00 <kaichiuchi> it’s “do you want to make your life easier”
18:19:00 <kof123> i should stress im not trying to take a side here. just hold up an ouroborus and call it a day is my position
18:19:00 <epony> if you're trying to be the next Borland, you're doomed in 1991
18:19:00 <heat> your doctor doesn't prescribe you a recipe with a full book about the common flu if you don't get better
18:20:00 <epony> you can keep inventing many variants of getting screwed
18:20:00 <epony> by doctors and other serivces personnel
18:20:00 <kaichiuchi> you would be dead in a week if they did
18:20:00 <heat> because people don't want that. mr doctor give recipe, people use reciple, they get better or come back to mr doctor, who looks at them again
18:20:00 <heat> s/reciple/reciple/g I cannot type today lol
18:20:00 <kaichiuchi> you take the goddamn pill and get better
18:20:00 <heat> holy fucking shit, RECIPE
18:21:00 <epony> you get industrial opiates mixed with medicinal substances and you get to see doctor mister a lot more often
18:21:00 <epony> it's called wrong applications designs with "business interestes for the authoring business" not for its "consumeds"
18:22:00 <kaichiuchi> point being, it’s hardly an opinion to want something to just work
18:22:00 <epony> the engineering version
18:22:00 <kaichiuchi> it’s the nature of human beings unless the point is specifically experimentation
18:22:00 <epony> some integration and assembly required
18:23:00 <epony> you get to that stage on the "consumer" variant too, only you have no recourse there except wait, whine, complain, pay, play, pass time..
18:24:00 <epony> how much you can do with the system and which direction is your work going to be placed is.. entirely your choice
18:25:00 <kof123> ^^^ http://dict.org/bin/Dict?Form=Dict2&Database=devil&Query=great
18:25:00 <bslsk05> ​dict.org: dict.org- great
18:25:00 <epony> that's why people spend countless hours tweaking their system and working with file formats they don't own and then seek to support the tool that put them in that dependent position
18:25:00 <epony> it's jus a different way of putting the efforts of great many people where they can be invalidated and reused as an instrument of hostage-extortion
18:26:00 <epony> by that regard, Google is not much different, it's again about file formats and "locked" system of "services"
18:26:00 <epony> so between Microsoft on premises and Google in the services, not anything different, commerce as usual
18:27:00 <kof123> eh, i would draw a vague line between personal computer and networked here
18:27:00 <kof123> labels dont matter, and perhaps are obsolete, but gets the point across
18:27:00 <epony> and Apple as a 7.5% market position is.. just not really revelant
18:28:00 <epony> that's an important factor, consumer computers get consumer features and usage
18:29:00 <epony> with the development version of a system, these can be repurposed and used as development and business / networked computer systems
18:29:00 <epony> for work
18:29:00 <epony> instead of for "more consumption"
18:30:00 <epony> how efficient and easy that part is, depends on the "you need to buy a new license and a new version and a new computer" from the consumer vendors, or just use the already available capabilities in the same computer that can run any system
18:31:00 <epony> that's why commercial consumer "solutions" are not
18:31:00 <epony> they are problems, perceived as "themed applications"
18:32:00 <epony> in the same way that "thematic (alternative) tv channels" are not "university education"
18:33:00 <epony> so take the Borland lesson and evaluate "can you compete with the system controlling corporation if they decide to eliminate you or not"
18:34:00 <epony> and the answers are typically "I want my business to be bought by them" which happens if your business is of any value and interest to them, for a small set of you, but for the majority of use cases, that's a rejection and termination / restructuring
18:35:00 <epony> so the high integration comes at a cost of changes and obsoletions and displacements (There can be only one)
18:36:00 <epony> unless you're on the engineering system version where you get to do a bit more work on the system management but you have everything
18:37:00 <epony> that's why compilers were so expensive in the 80ies.. and developer tools later (which are limiting if you can't get to the system, just to the application surface above that)
18:38:00 <epony> the big secret is, you get the consumer version from consumables companies, and the engineering and developer systems are hunted bought and cancelled or abused in any possible way by large businesses who do not want competition from that side
18:39:00 <epony> when you self-rationalised the "consumption" version, you're self-eliminating access from you for similar capability and capacity
18:41:00 <epony> between fashion, religion and philosophy, there is many and none of them get it right, but believers are stongly rationalising theyr behaviour not their capabiltiy and capacity
18:41:00 <epony> and that's markets and politics for non technical reasons too
18:42:00 <epony> the integration can happen without being forced into consumption, in clean and reliable standards and performance and specification methods
18:43:00 <epony> convenience is not a contradition with well designed system, it's a result of it, but can be immitated without the elaborate designs and their reliable operation
18:44:00 <epony> UNIX was hated because it was expensive and incomplete from the 'convenience' and "standardisation" points
18:47:00 <epony> you all know how history rolled, so no need to repeat that, the real question is, why are FDO and desktop environment projects doing the WIN/DOS and MAC/DOS stupidity again?
18:48:00 <epony> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedesktop.org#Other
18:48:00 <bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: freedesktop.org - Wikipedia
18:49:00 <epony> that's the consumer side of things, that turns the UNIX philosophy book upside down and reads it in reverse from the last pages and in RTL or down-up or diagonal direction
18:51:00 <epony> the anti-thesis of an principally well designed system is that "windowisation" or "appleisation", which you're going to get anyway on the respective commercial system, and as convenience, but why skip the standards compliant and the engineering parts on a reliable and standards compliant (UNIX descendant, which Linux is somewhat like, but much more exprimental) system
18:51:00 <Ermine> Where is the Unix-way library/program/etc to draw fonts? Or is it the Unix way to have your eyes bleed from X core fonts?
18:51:00 <epony> on a UNIX-like system, getting just the superfluous problems is convenience, without the other parts that the system already has, so discards good achievement
18:52:00 <heat> freetype
18:52:00 <zid> freetype
18:52:00 <epony> see, that's the pango/cairo nicety from Gnome or others Xft / Xcb
18:52:00 <heat> zid, omg twiiiiiiiinssssssss
18:52:00 <zid> I fucking love AA'd fonts, I hate clearype
18:52:00 <zid> windows burns my eyes
18:53:00 <zid> that's why I mainly use fixedsys on it
18:53:00 <zid> firefox uses its own font renderer instead of windows' too, so I get nice AA'd fonts there also
18:53:00 <epony> yep, single pixel or well contoured fonts is eyesight retainer
18:53:00 <zid> and irc and web browser and pdf are where I spend 99% of my time, so I don't have to look at oogly fonts too much
18:53:00 <Ermine> heat: freetype is listed on the page epony provided, thus considered stupid
18:54:00 <epony> the stupid part is.. the lack of standards or breakage by discarding previous designs
18:54:00 <epony> or by bundling things in an 'quick and dirty' way without elaborate and reliable implementation
18:55:00 <epony> some parts of these are not completely disastrous and with a bit of fixes to retain the engineering qualities can get back in "shape"
18:55:00 <epony> but it passes several iterations
18:55:00 <epony> which is the "experimental way" you know from Linux and it's components too
18:56:00 <heat> why is it stupid?
18:56:00 <epony> that was inevitably part of UNIX too, with various commercial implementers and their special sauces on the graphics and application fronts
18:56:00 <Ermine> aand how much time it would take to make non-stupid Unix-way non-'quick and dirty' and whatnot font rendering lib?
18:56:00 <epony> well, the stupid is.. how many audio-subsystems are in Linux ;-)
18:56:00 <heat> man, this is the Unix-way
18:56:00 <epony> or how many problems does pango give you with your applications
18:56:00 <heat> freedesktop.org supplies desktop shit for many unices
18:57:00 <epony> with a slant of Linux mainly
18:57:00 <epony> because they target Linux, let's not fool ourselves they are doing the portaiblity, they are losing it
18:57:00 <Ermine> And taking into account everything else, will usable Unix-way desktop happen before the heat depth of the universe?
18:57:00 <epony> for example wtf is systemd
18:57:00 <epony> or hal/udev
18:58:00 <heat> usable? sure, you have it right now
18:58:00 <heat> good? who knows
18:58:00 <epony> or the kms/dri
18:58:00 <Ermine> heat: well, s/usable/good/
18:58:00 <epony> they are non-standards compliant linux-centric changes
18:58:00 <heat> the main issue with desktop linux is fragmentation and lack of investment
18:58:00 <epony> which discard previous designs instead of extending them and retaining the good parts
18:59:00 <heat> many alternative projects exist, very few companies want desktop linux, so you're stuck with thankless volunteers doing the work
18:59:00 <epony> so it's a version of 'ownage' and 'displacement' which is a Linux-ification in the way that Microsoft and GNU do it
18:59:00 <epony> extend embrace ext..4
18:59:00 <heat> combine that with a bunch of programmers doing UX and you have a great recipe for a crappy product IMO
19:00:00 <heat> (also, people who insist on using Xorg. it's not even maintained anymore outside of the odd bugfix)
19:00:00 <epony> we're going to have a nice Wayway land too
19:00:00 <Ermine> oh those linux people who DARED to make stuff and not waiting xBSD people to come up@
19:00:00 <epony> because who needs an engineering version ;-)
19:01:00 <epony> yep, that's the big money corporations are putting into dirty displacement of free systems
19:01:00 <epony> through incompatible interfaces, they own it
19:01:00 <epony> (Linux is a commercial product, if you did not know, there it is)
19:02:00 <epony> not a completely problematic one, just shared between many big businesses
19:02:00 <Ermine> remember, if you do your own stuff instead of consulting with each of 8 billion people on this planet, you are a fucking dirty commercial corporative capitalist
19:02:00 <heat> what
19:03:00 * heat is confused
19:03:00 <epony> but they make changes to it and the changes come from foundations getting money from them and commercial distributors which are interested in their business needs more than in standardisation, compatibility and reliability of the interfaces and programming internals and operator needs
19:03:00 <epony> so, in fact Redhat is doing most of that FDO projects internally and pushes them out so they are supported and propagated by the FDO
19:04:00 <epony> how's that different than what MSFT or GOOG or AAPL are doing ;-)
19:04:00 <epony> you get "to view the source code"
19:04:00 <Ermine> heat: I did some reductio ad absurdum
19:04:00 <epony> and whine about inability to make changes to the system 'overlay' called the graphics sub-system
19:05:00 <epony> so now the unix-haters club have a fdo-redhat haters club too ;-)
19:05:00 <epony> that's probably the most secret sauce of corporate businesses, creating self-healing user-groups
19:06:00 <epony> it's a form of post market services from the community of "screwed" useds
19:06:00 <heat> oh I'm missing 80% of the context because wikipedia man is talking
19:06:00 <epony> ^ you bet
19:07:00 <Ermine> heat: I just think if Linux and BSD people started discussing every change to their systems, the work would actually stop
19:07:00 <epony> it's the Unix philosophy books of Mike Gancarz you could read
19:07:00 <kaichiuchi> heat: sadly for assholes like me X is still the only good thing
19:07:00 <kaichiuchi> “good” loosely
19:07:00 <epony> and also BSD is an integrated and engineering system too, GNU is not that integrated and more into features extensions
19:07:00 <Ermine> > BSD
19:07:00 <heat> Ermine, discussing with whom?
19:07:00 <Ermine> > kqueue
19:07:00 <kaichiuchi> wayland isn’t incredible on NVIDIA, SDL tried to use wayland by default but then realized it’s not great
19:07:00 <Ermine> LOL
19:07:00 <Ermine> LMAO
19:07:00 <Ermine> ROFL
19:08:00 <epony> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libevent
19:08:00 <bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: libevent - Wikipedia
19:08:00 <kaichiuchi> i have someone ignores
19:08:00 <heat> kaichiuchi, does it still work poorly? :/
19:08:00 <kaichiuchi> ignored
19:08:00 <heat> yeah
19:08:00 <Ermine> KQUEUE IS THE APEX OF ENGINEERING
19:08:00 <kaichiuchi> heat: wayland was a terrific disaster for me
19:08:00 <kaichiuchi> X worked instantly
19:08:00 <epony> see that libevent comes from a BSD developer and is used in you browser too and in your terminal multiplexer too
19:08:00 <kaichiuchi> the KDE showstoppers are interesting
19:09:00 <Ermine> heat: discussing with whom? <--- with each other
19:09:00 <epony> in short, desktoy environments are not really the "super-achievement" of operating systems, they are where problems appear because of lack of standardisation and portability
19:09:00 <heat> Ermine, probably
19:10:00 <kaichiuchi> applications not prompting to save work, QDockWidget’s aren’t visible when moving
19:10:00 <heat> linux people would look at their man pages and get mislead :)))))
19:10:00 <kaichiuchi> no color management
19:10:00 <epony> for example nothing would have stopped MSFT and AAPL and GOOG (and AMZN and FB) from creating "portable applications" but they are vertical market control corporations
19:10:00 <kaichiuchi> wayland has been the Thing but has been complete dogshit for 10 years
19:10:00 <Ermine> heat: re wayland vs xorg: I think both have their own deficiencies
19:11:00 <epony> so they are using the engineering and standardised system, and get you a consumer "release" of take-it-or-leave-it
19:11:00 <kaichiuchi> heat was a fetus when I saw wayland coming out
19:11:00 <Ermine> heat: awilfox believes that it is possible to get Xorg into shape
19:11:00 <heat> kaichiuchi, I was 6
19:11:00 <heat> Ermine, nonsense
19:11:00 <kof123> i will say the problem with "I want it to work" masks code rot, or duplicated effort, or any number of things which might work temporarily, and get de-prioritized in a mad rush to market ...works until it is one giant jenga tower. "works or not" cannot be the only priority, whether we are talking lone guy in bedroom or giant enterprise
19:11:00 <epony> of course it is possible to get the X server in shape
19:12:00 <Ermine> epony: do it then/
19:12:00 <epony> it's a protocol system that can have protocol adjustments
19:12:00 <heat> Xorg is deeply flawed and extended beyond reasonable doubt
19:12:00 <kaichiuchi> no please please don’t suggest that Xorg is fixable
19:12:00 <kof123> ^^^ +heat not arguing either way, but an example
19:12:00 <kaichiuchi> the whole point of it is *long gone*
19:12:00 <kaichiuchi> the very architecture doesn’t translate at all to the modern world
19:12:00 <epony> well, this kind of "design" decisions get you into the N-number of audio sub-systems for Linux
19:12:00 <epony> and the M-number of file systems Linux has
19:13:00 <kaichiuchi> this goes back to people wanting to make piles of shit into polished turds
19:13:00 <epony> standards ;-)
19:13:00 <heat> kof123, sure, you can clean things up while making the product Just Work. It doesn't need to be an unreasonable search for perfection while things just don't work. I'm not at all saying that technical debt is something you should ignore
19:13:00 <kof123> i think we violently agree here, and kaichuiuchi too
19:14:00 <kof123> maybe qs of what causes this, etc.
19:14:00 <kof123> but that the phenomenon is real
19:14:00 <epony> extensible standards compliant modular-composable system, that's what UNIX is about
19:14:00 <Ermine> Standards are bad actually
19:14:00 <epony> at least in the principles of improving its designs
19:14:00 <heat> kaichiuchi, totes, that's the UNIX way
19:14:00 <heat> fork() away!
19:14:00 <kaichiuchi> i can say this, as someone who was a test engineer and had no control at all
19:14:00 <kaichiuchi> we were under extremely tight deadlines
19:14:00 <Ermine> heat: on Wayland, I think that 'frame-perfect' vision of Wayland didn't work well, since they added the possibility of screen tearing
19:15:00 <kaichiuchi> people would just say “it works” and ship
19:15:00 <epony> this person wrote 2 books about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy#Mike_Gancarz:_The_UNIX_Philosophy
19:15:00 <bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Unix philosophy - Wikipedia
19:15:00 <kaichiuchi> consider this abalogy
19:15:00 <epony> the first book was about "crappy UNIX-es" from commerce and Linux being one of them
19:15:00 <kaichiuchi> analogy
19:15:00 <heat> Ermine, screen tearing is wanted sometimes (mainly competitive video games lol)
19:15:00 <Ermine> heat: exactly
19:15:00 <epony> the second book was about UNIX and LINUX as a converging evolution
19:15:00 <heat> but ok, you couldn't disable it, now you can
19:15:00 <gog> hi
19:15:00 <heat> yay!
19:15:00 <kaichiuchi> you hire an electrician, and you trust that electrician will solve your problem but in fact they did a lousy job
19:16:00 <kaichiuchi> but you don’t know it
19:16:00 <Ermine> gog: were sushis good?
19:16:00 <gog> very
19:16:00 <kaichiuchi> maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next year
19:16:00 <Ermine> nice
19:16:00 <gog> we have so much leftover fishy
19:16:00 <kaichiuchi> but at some point your house will burn down
19:16:00 <gog> i can't chomp it all
19:16:00 <epony> those books contain basic "recipes" how to design reliable interfaces and applciations
19:16:00 <heat> Ermine, compare with Xorg which had little to no vsync support
19:16:00 <kaichiuchi> but it just worked, right?
19:16:00 <epony> that's what the FDO needs to read to get some progress
19:16:00 <kaichiuchi> that’s not the type of “just works” i’m talking about.
19:17:00 <kof123> ok, fair
19:17:00 <heat> or Xorg which still supports X over TCP to a remote client
19:17:00 <epony> so the main argument is: people who are unlearned are doing system engineering hobby work that corporations bestow upon them with their specifications and interests as primary directive
19:17:00 <heat> it's nuts
19:17:00 <kaichiuchi> heat: the problem is no one in that world ultimately cares
19:17:00 <kaichiuchi> they want to live in shit and love to live in shit
19:18:00 <heat> just like pigs eh?
19:18:00 <kaichiuchi> that’s the only conclusion i can reach
19:18:00 <kof123> i think heat suggested other way around, no funds
19:18:00 <kaichiuchi> it’s unacceptable that Wayland has been a thing for 10+ years and it’s still garbage
19:18:00 <heat> UNIX itself is a piece of turd that is still going 40 years after it should've died
19:18:00 <Ermine> heat: maybe, but didn't this happen to be a compositor's job? I saw tearing in my pc only in fvwm2
19:19:00 <gog> we should make our own operating system since everything else is bad
19:19:00 <kof123> ^^^
19:19:00 <heat> github.com/heatd/Onyx subscribe
19:19:00 <bslsk05> ​heatd/Onyx - UNIX-like operating system written in C and C++ (4 forks/54 stargazers/MIT)
19:19:00 <Ermine> heat: so you are kinda like this overdue stuff?
19:19:00 <heat> we support x86_64 and riscv64 with an in-progress arm64 port give me money give me money sub to my patreon and onlyfans
19:19:00 <kof123> ultimately it comes down to "why aren't you fixing these things?
19:19:00 <kaichiuchi> because i have a job and not enough time to do it
19:19:00 <Ermine> heat onlyfans good content
19:19:00 <epony> it's not bad, UNIX is created by engineering PhD people
19:20:00 <epony> it's much better than Linux
19:20:00 <heat> Ermine, I kinda like this overdue stuff? yes
19:20:00 <Ermine> heat: hmm...
19:20:00 <kaichiuchi> and frankly i don’t have the technical skills to shit out what I think is a good operating system
19:20:00 <epony> at least the first version (1-to-5 variants) that Linux gets to do are kid-toy-story grade plastic utensils
19:20:00 <heat> I have weird stockholm syndrome
19:20:00 <kaichiuchi> but if heat who is 20 can do it
19:21:00 <kaichiuchi> i think i’m selling myself short
19:21:00 <heat> what does that mean, oldie
19:21:00 <epony> each element of UNIX is a programming language and a compiler toolkit in itself
19:21:00 <kaichiuchi> it means you’re at a level that I was not at when i was 20
19:21:00 <epony> think which part of consumer systems get you that, only the very complex and very expensive big applications
19:21:00 <kaichiuchi> still not, either
19:21:00 <heat> yes, i've been doing this since I was 12
19:22:00 <kaichiuchi> if I had applied myself when I was a fetus
19:22:00 <epony> being 20 means you need to learn a lot more
19:22:00 <kaichiuchi> i’d be different
19:22:00 <kaichiuchi> not that it’s too late now
19:22:00 <Ermine> I wish I've could pay for heat's onlyfans subscription rn
19:22:00 <epony> at least skipping reading books that are important leads to "opinions invented or overheard but not validated or experienced historically"
19:23:00 <epony> supporting commercian consumer systems is a special "dependency saught" variant of "I want to be a preacher"
19:24:00 <heat> Ermine down tremendous
19:24:00 <gog> too late is a fake idea
19:24:00 <gog> at least when it comes to self improvement goals
19:25:00 <Ermine> heat: ?
19:25:00 <kaichiuchi> yeah i just beat myself up too much
19:25:00 * gog offers sushi to kaichiuchi
19:25:00 <sham1> There are certainly things that can have a "too late" attached to them
19:25:00 <gog> yes
19:25:00 * kaichiuchi eat
19:25:00 <gog> that is inarguable
19:25:00 <sham1> But yeah, self-improvement is timeless
19:26:00 <gog> i can think of a few things that are immediate dangers to humans and other animal species
19:26:00 <gog> and too late is either rapidly approaching or already behind us :|
19:26:00 <gog> it's impossible to know!
19:26:00 <gog> :D
19:26:00 <heat> Ermine, = down bad
19:26:00 <epony> you can get a bunch of "get me back in the comfy matrix" belief-themes and be "a normie" too, but you're not a target used of the fool-proof systems
19:27:00 <epony> you however have residual "regrets" for not being one
19:27:00 <kaichiuchi> also
19:27:00 <epony> so Neo, pick the other choice ;-) again
19:27:00 <kaichiuchi> writing ANSI C is somehow really freeing
19:27:00 <gog> red pill red pill
19:27:00 <kaichiuchi> i have no idea what it is
19:27:00 <kaichiuchi> but it’s just a nice feeling
19:28:00 <sham1> Clearly it must be the trill of not having fixed-width integers
19:28:00 <epony> the same feeling you can get in Turbo Pascal
19:28:00 <kaichiuchi> there’s a free stdint.h i could pull
19:28:00 <sham1> Because I can't think of other reasons one would use C89 over C99
19:28:00 <epony> that's being "sure you're doing things alright / as they are done by others"
19:28:00 <kaichiuchi> maximum portability
19:29:00 <kaichiuchi> some compilers of note STILL
19:29:00 <kaichiuchi> STILL don’t support C99
19:29:00 <sham1> C99 is maximally portable. Although I'd personally do C11 or C17 for that, because VLAs are terrible
19:29:00 <kaichiuchi> particularly in the embedded world
19:29:00 <gog> the problem i'm having in C and C++ is that they have different kinds of pattern boilerplate you end up writing
19:29:00 <kaichiuchi> sham1: at my old job there was a TI compiler in use that didn’t support C99
19:29:00 <gog> and i hate both
19:29:00 <Ermine> epony: the actual matrix scenario implied that Neo never escaped matrix.
19:30:00 <epony> so between the "as the goup of similarity does it" or "as the engineering groupd does it" (the ones with the PhD or mastery / skill / deep thought collective)
19:30:00 <sham1> I'm actually writing some Erlang currently. It's surprisingly fun
19:31:00 <epony> yep, just place yourself in the group of engineering and you're back into your comforts if that is your intent
19:31:00 <sham1> The only annoying thing is that I essentially have to do SSA by hand by having to come up with new binding names
19:32:00 <epony> there is no real contradiction, you can have pills anywhere but that's just a symbol, of choices, so picking choices that are correct for your (engineering) set of goals and objectives gets you into "converging" but also different than "consumer" systems designs
19:33:00 <epony> you can't have that many standards, but you can have multiple contrasting conventions in user preferences and convenience / control points
19:33:00 <Ermine> gog: what lang do you use then?
19:33:00 <kaichiuchi> sham1: plus
19:33:00 <kaichiuchi> I want my code to natively compile on windows 98
19:34:00 <kaichiuchi> or DOS
19:34:00 <puck> kaichiuchi: i was surprised that a TI compiler i had to deal with (16-bit DSP, a few years ago) was C11-compatible
19:34:00 <kaichiuchi> for fun
19:34:00 <epony> so that's why emacs and vi are not just editors, they are text editing conventions, which are "user options" of confort / convenience / use case specifics
19:34:00 <kaichiuchi> puck: yeah we weren’t that fortunate
19:34:00 <kaichiuchi> it was ancient
19:34:00 <epony> but they start from same premises
19:34:00 <Ermine> kaichiuchi: even vim abandoned this goal
19:35:00 <Ermine> kaichiuchi: and there are no c99 compilers on DOS
19:35:00 <epony> and in their system-embedded minimal implementations even use same screen addressing libraries and end up with similar aplication sizes
19:35:00 <kaichiuchi> precisely
19:35:00 <gog> Ermine: i've been playing with c++ lately
19:35:00 <kaichiuchi> that’s why you need to use ANSI C
19:35:00 <kaichiuchi> and for my use case it’s purely a toy
19:35:00 <gog> experimenting
19:35:00 <epony> so it's not that much different in the essential parts, much difference in the "prefered" control of editing user/operator interface
19:35:00 <Ermine> gog: ah
19:36:00 <gog> maybe i need a new pair of socks
19:36:00 <kaichiuchi> no stop
19:36:00 <Ermine> gog: take a pair with buns on them
19:36:00 <epony> and the internals are, as usual, the data structure used for the representation of the editing, and the programmability / language tooling builting into it / or used to contruct it extensible / reprogrammable
19:37:00 <epony> for example each of the tools you know from UNIX are a language and uses compiler tools (parsers) to do that
19:37:00 <epony> so are language designs
19:37:00 <epony> the system is "intended" to be extensible with language tooling (programmable) internally
19:37:00 <kaichiuchi> i had a version of what i’m doing compiling with VC++6.0
19:37:00 <kaichiuchi> that was awesome to watch
19:40:00 <Ermine> kaichiuchi: I used it in WinNT4 VM to build Vim 7.4 for Win9x
19:40:00 <kaichiuchi> well
19:40:00 <Ermine> Then I've spent a lot of time to build vim 8.1 for those windowses, without success
19:40:00 <kaichiuchi> I don’t know if we can use clang or gcc
19:41:00 <kaichiuchi> maybe if we install the windows SDK on 98 and point clang/gcc to the appropriate files
19:41:00 <Ermine> I doubt whether clang ever supported win9x
19:41:00 <epony> that's a bit naive, don't you think?
19:41:00 <epony> the WIN/DOS interfaces are different
19:41:00 <kaichiuchi> nono
19:41:00 <epony> remember GDI
19:42:00 <epony> and the kernel system calls
19:42:00 <epony> and the terminal libraries
19:42:00 <epony> a totally different "userland interfaces"
19:42:00 <kaichiuchi> i mean if we compile for windows 98 on linux using libs/headers from the vc installation
19:42:00 <Ermine> kaichiuchi: I'd give up if I were you.
19:42:00 <epony> which requires a tooling like Cygnus CYG/WIN
19:42:00 <kaichiuchi> no it worked and i’m having fun
19:43:00 <epony> which is the poor-man's approach to achieve portable "interface" where they are missing
19:43:00 <Ermine> The goal is laudable, but it doesn't worth it. Better target XP
19:43:00 <kaichiuchi> DOOM was ported to a pregnancy test
19:43:00 <kaichiuchi> i think i can manage
19:43:00 <epony> diabetes and pregnancy are different conditions
19:45:00 <zid> it wasn't
19:45:00 <zid> it was put inside the shell of one
19:45:00 <zid> using an oled
19:45:00 <zid> The oled lego brick is cool also
19:45:00 <Ermine> zid: it used the processor of that test
19:46:00 <kaichiuchi> even if I would be wrong, DOOM has been ported everywhere
19:47:00 <kaichiuchi> that’s a fact
19:47:00 <epony> the ID proggers did not use Borland C
19:47:00 <epony> which could have been a lie of course
19:48:00 <epony> said they used some 'free' Watcom C compiler
19:48:00 <epony> or shareware or whatever "use"
19:49:00 <epony> it used the specifics of the graphics hardware and the DOS specifics of memory management too
19:50:00 <epony> the networking of course was non-TCP from Novell's IPX experiments
19:51:00 <Ermine> Such standard compliance, many engineering wow
19:52:00 <epony> I've used that application with a serial cable too and with a modem dial-up in point-to-point network with its original versions back in those years
19:52:00 <epony> and in the networked variant too, of course
19:53:00 <epony> it's nothing like "networking as it should be done"
19:54:00 <epony> same for graphics and programming, but you get a "mashup this way we did it for taking as much advantage of the system as we knew / could"
19:55:00 <epony> that's what games give you, a non-elaboate application-design premises taking advantage of the hardware and its operating system of "dominant choice"
19:55:00 <epony> and when the system is designed to "give all resoureces" to the "application that claims them" that's DOS/WIN
19:56:00 <epony> when the computers get more capabilit to be able to use a realistic OS that does proper resource allocation and scheduling and networking, why not use it ;-) unless your applications are making the choices instead of you
19:57:00 <epony> and that's the problem with unportable and incompatible systems, they have different designs goals / objectives and do "relatively stupid" but advantageous to resource delegation with "hogging"
19:57:00 <kaichiuchi> uwu?
19:58:00 <epony> the other interesting part is the graphics sub-system is in the kernel
19:58:00 <epony> so it gets a faster path and deeper integration
19:59:00 <epony> that's similar in DOS/WIN and DOS/MAC
19:59:00 <epony> so games need that, and screw with DirectX and OpenGL to the degree they can running on Windows95+ too (GDI)
20:00:00 <epony> that's unportable designs
20:07:00 <epony> it's acceptable to have applications (ab)use the system features, but when the system changes, that breaks
20:08:00 <epony> WIN/DOS carries a lot of backwards compat in it
20:08:00 <epony> a lot, even in the UI interface libraries, and even in the system components
20:10:00 <epony> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Device_Interface
20:10:00 <bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Graphics Device Interface - Wikipedia
20:29:00 <gog> kaichiuchi: owo??
20:30:00 <kaichiuchi> where’s my chili
20:30:00 <gog> we finished it
20:30:00 <gog> there's more sushi
20:30:00 <zid> gog: netflix and chili?
20:30:00 <gog> yes
20:32:00 <Ermine> netflix, chili and some petting
20:32:00 <zid> eww lewd
20:32:00 <gog> :3
20:33:00 <Ermine> didn't mean anything beyond usual petting. No harassment
20:34:00 <zid> Hand holding should be made R18
20:43:00 <gog> h*lding h*nds
20:44:00 <gog> o///o
20:46:00 <zid> https://media.japanesewithanime.com/uploads/hand-holding-hamefura-ep04.jpg
20:46:00 <Ermine> Lol
20:48:00 <gog> makefiles
20:48:00 <gog> can't live with em
20:48:00 <gog> too lazy to use another build system
20:48:00 <zid> plus they're universal and modifiable
20:49:00 <gog> is meson worth it
20:49:00 <gog> or does it just tie me to something that might change in a way that breaks my project
20:52:00 <Ermine> Idk if I like it
20:52:00 <Ermine> I don't like the fact that it's written in python, but thankfully there's muon
20:52:00 <zid> if you bundle meson with your project I will allow it
20:52:00 <zid> and python
20:53:00 <Ermine> Also I don't think it is a good idea to include a test framework. I think it should be separate from the build system
20:53:00 <gog> hm
20:54:00 <Ermine> But I like that they export some info that can be useful for text editors. It allows making the whole IDE from various components
20:54:00 <zid> I think it's time for chili
20:54:00 <zid> brb gotta do some rice
20:55:00 <Ermine> Also I think meson will never kill make. Make is universal and supports every language out there, meson needs specific support for each language
20:57:00 <gog> that's a dealbreaker really
20:58:00 <gog> i'll stick with make unless it ever becomes too unwieldly
21:07:00 <zid> tbh if make is unwieldy, your project is unwieldly
21:07:00 <zid> and you should probably write some support software, or fix your issues
21:07:00 <zid> (see: Kconfig)
21:14:00 <gog> it's really not rn
21:15:00 <Ermine> Hand-written configure may be useful in alleviating Makefile complexity
21:29:00 <zid> I has chili, what do I netflix
21:29:00 <gog> glass onion
21:29:00 <zid> isn't that the obnoxiously silly thing
21:30:00 <zid> fuck it this'll do, "How Different Spillway Gates Work"
21:58:00 <kaichiuchi> so
21:58:00 <kaichiuchi> i think i want a NAS
21:58:00 <heat> .so.0
21:59:00 <heat> kaichiuchi, something new for your project: https://github.com/bkryza/clang-uml
21:59:00 <bslsk05> ​bkryza/clang-uml - Customizable automatic UML diagram generator for C++ based on Clang. (10 forks/100 stargazers/NOASSERTION)
22:00:00 <kaichiuchi> are you just making fun of my overengineering now
22:00:00 <heat> yes
22:00:00 <heat> that is exactly what I'm doing
22:01:00 <kaichiuchi> very well
22:01:00 <kaichiuchi> i will continue to eat my cranberries
22:01:00 <heat> at least you don't use OOP design patterns
22:02:00 <kaichiuchi> i’ve never thought of or used a design pattern in my life
22:02:00 <heat> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_Patterns
22:02:00 <bslsk05> ​en.wikipedia.org: Design Patterns - Wikipedia
22:02:00 <kaichiuchi> no i know what they are
22:02:00 <heat> this is the overengineering way
22:02:00 <kaichiuchi> i’m just saying i find them to be mostly useless
22:02:00 <heat> whaaaaaaaaaaaaat
22:03:00 <kaichiuchi> what do you mean "what"
22:04:00 <kaichiuchi> there's nothing that says "god, i can't wait to find a pattern and pick one out and give it a buzzword name and then implement it"
22:04:00 <heat> i can't believe you've never used a StrategySingletonFacadeFactoryObserver
22:04:00 <kaichiuchi> than design patterns
22:04:00 <kaichiuchi> never
22:04:00 <kaichiuchi> i've used singletons and observers
22:04:00 <kaichiuchi> but I've never in my life considered them "patterns"
22:05:00 <kaichiuchi> my boss at my old job said that the project we were working on made use of the visitor behavioral pattern with the biggest smile on his face
22:05:00 <kaichiuchi> i had to quit. i couldn't stay.
22:05:00 <heat> fuck
22:05:00 <heat> that's a toughie
22:05:00 <heat> actual smile?
22:05:00 <kaichiuchi> an actual smile
22:05:00 <kaichiuchi> a big one
22:05:00 <heat> or just ironic grin?
22:05:00 <kaichiuchi> this is someone who graduated with a masters from CMU
22:06:00 <heat> aw no
22:06:00 <heat> not those people
22:06:00 <kaichiuchi> i couldn't stand him
22:06:00 <kaichiuchi> he was one of those people who would say "i don't want you to just do your tasks"
22:06:00 <kaichiuchi> well, what else do you want me to do? "more"
22:06:00 <gog> oh god
22:07:00 <kaichiuchi> and then it became clear what was really going on
22:07:00 <zid> I've had multiple people explain visitor pattern to me, the most I could figured out was "This is C++ nonsense"
22:07:00 <kaichiuchi> the insane tight deadlines and the fact QA people are notoriously crunched the hardest
22:07:00 <kaichiuchi> and of course for every release the same bugs would show up every single release
22:07:00 <kaichiuchi> so much so that I had templates ready just for the occasion
22:07:00 <zid> after the layer 1 explanation they have to do the layer 2 explanation of why you can't just do something sane, then the layer 3 explanation, etc
22:07:00 <kaichiuchi> here's the thing, I don't have a degree, right?
22:08:00 <kaichiuchi> this only further increased my prejudice of "higher learning"
22:08:00 <kaichiuchi> yes, the sample size is 1
22:08:00 <kaichiuchi> actually, 2
22:08:00 <kaichiuchi> maybe about 1,000.
22:09:00 <kaichiuchi> it was an entire mountain of bullshit from start to finish full of silicon valley wannabees saying shit that could have only originated in california
22:09:00 <kaichiuchi> and then when you get to 'x', you quickly realize it's not at all what you prepared for
22:10:00 <kaichiuchi> 9 times out of 10 someone graduates college, your boss/teammates will say "yeah forget everything you learned in college."
22:10:00 <kaichiuchi> so why the *FUCK* would I even go?!?!??!?!?1??1?
22:10:00 <kaichiuchi> this is the same guy who gave me the trapping rainwater leetcode problem
22:10:00 <kaichiuchi> yet, the project he was in charge of was one of the worst examples of python I have *ever* seen
22:11:00 <kaichiuchi> it would make zid, an already picky person, probably go postal in the office
22:13:00 <mats2> its to weed out some people with impulse control problems and type walls of text unprompted
22:13:00 <kaichiuchi> i think we were in the middle of a conversation and I was explaining stuff
22:16:00 <kaichiuchi> heat: i'm trying not to overengineer, but it's hard
22:35:00 <heat> kaichiuchi, i believe you
22:35:00 <heat> in any case, here's some reading material for everyone: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Pig_and_the_Box
22:35:00 <bslsk05> ​en.wikisource.org: The Pig and the Box - Wikisource, the free online library
22:36:00 <heat> sorry, your children*
22:39:00 <kaichiuchi> is any ssh client any good at all on ios
22:39:00 <kaichiuchi> termius seems like the Thing
22:54:00 <epony> college and university are not the same education level, and the other people who are not educated tell you that to indicate you should get a better paid job where the others are required to be educated to your level and above as well
23:04:00 <sham1> This depends on what one means by college and university
23:07:00 <epony> they are different and not subjective interpretation categories of high education, college is typically half the length and no post-graduate studies etc
23:33:00 * kof123 reads the heat story, adds note that 27 is still cursed