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#osdev2 = #osdev @ Libera from 23may2021 to present
#osdev @ OPN/FreeNode from 3apr2001 to 23may2021
all other channels are on OPN/FreeNode from 2004 to present
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01:31:00 <geist> hmm, kinda want to put in an order for a visionfive 2 board
01:31:00 <geist> may ship in january!
01:31:00 <geist> i'm a bit unexcited in the fact that the starfive page doesn't have docs for the JH7110 soc
01:33:00 <geist> hmm, only a datasheet for the previous one, no real software dev guide around
01:33:00 <geist> this is a no-go
01:33:00 <heat> aw
01:33:00 <geist> sigh, come on assholes. release the damn docs
01:33:00 <heat> i did look at it briefly after someone mentioned it in the fuchsia discord
01:33:00 <heat> but it seemed too unobtanium here
01:34:00 <geist> yeah i had even preordered the visionfive and cancelled the preorder when it went on for like 6 months
01:34:00 <geist> so not going to get snookered again
01:34:00 <geist> this time it looks like the visionfive 2 is gonna really ship soon, but no docs, no play
01:34:00 <heat> if you look at GPLv2 code for documentation is it a license violation? :)
01:35:00 <geist> maybe not, but it's no fun anyway
01:35:00 <geist> and that assumes there's full support for it in linux, etc
01:35:00 <heat> "VisionFive 2 supports mainstream Linux distributions"
01:35:00 <geist> i mean i'm sure the basics could be made to go, the datasheet has at least the memory map and there is a DTC, etc
01:35:00 <geist> but bleh
01:36:00 <geist> yeah but that doesn't mean it has full support for everything. it may hjust have the gpios jammed into place, no proper clock driver, etc
01:37:00 <geist> from what i can grok the starfive folks dont seem to be scammy or anything, i suspect they're just a handful of devs and no doc writers. or the docs are in chinese, or there are no internal docs (actually kinda common)
01:38:00 <heat> doc writing is herd :(
01:38:00 <geist> but they have a repo with some uboot and whatnot stuff on it: https://github.com/starfive-tech/VisionFive2
01:38:00 <heat> i kinda want to set up a sphinx thingy for my OS with docs
01:38:00 <heat> with pretty html and shit that I can then just host
01:39:00 <kaichiuchi> hi
01:40:00 <heat> kai
01:41:00 <kaichiuchi> hai
01:53:00 <geist> hmm, people have been asking, but there is a pretty good forum and whatnot for visionfive 2 stuff
01:53:00 <geist> so probably worth pulling the trigger on this and at least getting some hardware to fiddle with
01:53:00 <geist> https://forum.rvspace.org/t/jh7110-software-developer-guide-eta/946
01:53:00 <bslsk05> forum.rvspace.org: JH7110 Software Developer Guide ETA? - VisionFive 2 （English Forum) - RVspace Forum
01:55:00 <gog> hi
01:55:00 <zid> what's a visionfive
01:55:00 <zid> sounds like an ossc competitor, by name, but I doubt it
01:57:00 <heat> it's an """AI""" riscv board maker
01:57:00 <zid> oh so we should put it in the bin with the rest of the casio watches
02:04:00 <geist> no it's just a riscv 64bit based dev board
02:04:00 <geist> seems okayish if it'll ever ship
02:04:00 <heat> yeah but these boards are all supposedly for AI
02:04:00 <heat> hence vision
02:04:00 <geist> well sure. i mean you have to have some sort of point to making a whole soc
02:04:00 <zid> heat: I want a datapath visionRGB
02:05:00 <geist> most socs i know if have some sort of role they're designed to fit
04:40:00 <epony> four double-quotes are for multi-file quotation ;-) that Pythoŋ
04:42:00 <epony> five for multi-decade imports and six for string-theory overloads
04:44:00 <epony> quotation start from 2, nestiŋ is for birds
04:47:00 <epony> "The quick twin peaks hat ate the lazy blue elephant." --22/7
09:58:00 <pog> mew
10:04:00 <ddevault> looks like I'm going to get a slot at FOSDEM :)
10:04:00 <ddevault> microkernel track
10:06:00 <theWeaver> ddevault: poggers
10:07:00 * moon-child gets pog
10:08:00 <ddevault> have to totally overhaul my talk to fit that room though
10:16:00 <pog> nice!
10:32:00 <FireFly> vewy vewy smow kewnel
10:33:00 <ddevault> wip https://l.sr.ht/8pS7.pdf
10:36:00 <FireFly> a mildly amusing switcheroo would be to offer an OS talk at fosdem and then give a talk about knightos :p
10:36:00 <ddevault> hah
10:36:00 <ddevault> would be *very* impressive if I could connect KnightOS to a projector to drive the slide deck
10:36:00 <kazinsal> new kernel design classification unlocked: uwukernel
10:36:00 <FireFly> "I'm sorry my calculator doesn't have a VGA port"
10:37:00 <Mutabah> bitbang VGA?
10:37:00 <ddevault> would probably involve the USB port
10:37:00 <ddevault> and a little board to do some heavy lifting
10:38:00 <FireFly> might make the surprise "turns out I was driving the presentation from within the OS" a bit less subtle if it's rendered at TI-calc screen resolutions and in monochrome though
10:38:00 <ddevault> who says I would send the internal display to the projector?
10:38:00 <FireFly> ..true
10:38:00 <ddevault> please wait 5 minutes while my... laptop... renders the next slide
10:38:00 <Mutabah> also, that's klange's trick
10:39:00 <ddevault> maybe so, but I'll selfishly one-up him by also writing the language my kernel is written in
10:39:00 <epony> VGA is an analogue signal
10:39:00 <epony> so much confusion in so little words
10:41:00 <FireFly> feels like a reasonable way to stretch the term
10:41:00 <FireFly> I don't think 'bit' is the main distinguishing feature of bitbanging
10:42:00 <clever> you can also bit-bang a 24bit parallel digital signal, then just slap a 3 channel DAC on it
10:42:00 <epony> mhm, the hole in the floor has space for more han solos
10:42:00 <clever> or even just a resistor dac
10:56:00 <Mutabah> epony: You can bit-bang 8-colour VGA :)
10:56:00 <Mutabah> Or more with a resistor ladder DAC
10:57:00 <epony> well, it's not just one signal and has sync too
10:57:00 <Mutabah> five
10:57:00 <epony> check out the VGA spec and you'll see composite and VGA are not the same thing, and even composite is infeasible
10:58:00 <Mutabah> two sync lines and three colour lines (iirc)
10:58:00 <Mutabah> bangable with a few passive components'
10:58:00 <epony> you also need some bandwidth
10:58:00 <Mutabah> Oh yep, definitely
10:59:00 <Mutabah> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7rce6IQDWs
10:59:00 <bslsk05> 'The world's worst video card?' by Ben Eater (00:32:47)
10:59:00 <epony> let's not talk about voodoo ;-)
10:59:00 <Mutabah> That's not a voodoo, it's a custom one :)
11:00:00 <Mutabah> But seriously, I mentioned big-banging a video signal - voodoo is entirely on the table
11:00:00 <epony> yeah, the voodoo in the first apple had traces drawn with chicken legs
11:00:00 <epony> it's not, forget it ;-)
11:16:00 <ddevault> https://l.sr.ht/_iYk.pdf
11:35:00 <ddevault> done: https://l.sr.ht/qJBQ.pdf
11:35:00 <ddevault> ah I should shout out #osdev at the end too
11:37:00 <ddevault> back to teaching a raspberry pi how to display this slide deck
11:40:00 <epony> that's their primary use case, signage and kiosk / presentation
11:41:00 <epony> smart-vga ;-)
12:53:00 <kaichiuchi> pog: may i pog you
12:53:00 <Ermine> ddevault: congrats on approval? Will it be streamed this year?
12:53:00 <pog> kaichiuchi lewd
12:54:00 <Ermine> wiki page on gog output protocol when
12:59:00 <kaichiuchi> waiting for packages suck
13:01:00 <ddevault> Ermine: I think so
13:01:00 <ddevault> still not finalized, though, too early to celebrate
13:02:00 <zid> I thought they already fired you
13:02:00 <kaichiuchi> i'd fire you
13:03:00 <kaichiuchi> (not really, but i would probably have to leave the office every now and again)
13:03:00 <kaichiuchi> <3
13:09:00 <pog> fire me
13:10:00 <zid> out of a canon into the sun?
13:10:00 <pog> yes
13:10:00 <zid> or a cannon
13:10:00 <zid> firing you out of a kodak, pew
13:10:00 <pog> nikon pls
13:10:00 <zid> I'm not that rich
13:11:00 * pog flashes her cash at zid
13:11:00 <zid> :(
13:11:00 <pog> aww sorry
13:11:00 <pog> i'm not rich either
13:11:00 <zid> I need $4.95 so I can pirate some ebooks for myself
13:12:00 <pog> ok
13:12:00 <zid> stick has gone afk and not posted blacksmith collecting tomboys v5, and honzuki is out tonight
13:12:00 <zid> worry
13:12:00 <pog> aw
13:13:00 <zid> I want a collection of tomboys, but idk how to get it started
13:13:00 <pog> am i too femme to count as a tomboy
13:14:00 <zid> if you were a tomboy I think you'd just end up being a boy?
13:14:00 <zid> idk how all this works
13:14:00 <pog> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
13:36:00 <ddevault> time to play "can I read ARMARM today"
13:36:00 <ddevault> yes!
13:58:00 <ddevault> I bet I can be in userspace by this afternoon
13:58:00 <ddevault> evening*
13:58:00 <ddevault> syscalls too if I'm lucky
13:59:00 <ddevault> just finished setting up the init loader, just have to drop from EL1=>EL0
13:59:00 <ddevault> then, uh, do some other stuff
14:19:00 <kaichiuchi> it's incredible how getting the size of a file in C is somehow ridiculous
14:19:00 <sham1> Well that's just because C doesn't really have a way to do it
14:19:00 <zid> yea that's not really a C thing
14:19:00 <sham1> Well, unless you're talking about ftell and rewind
14:19:00 <kaichiuchi> I know it isn't a *C thing*
14:19:00 <zid> C just barely manges streams, sorta
14:19:00 <kaichiuchi> SEEK_END isn't portable
14:20:00 <zid> sham1: not valid
14:20:00 <sham1> Right
14:20:00 <kaichiuchi> and in win32 land, it's even worse
14:20:00 <kaichiuchi> because you NEED a HANDLE
14:20:00 <kaichiuchi> GetFileSize doesn't take a FILE
14:20:00 <zid> SEEK_END is UB on binary streams
14:20:00 <kaichiuchi> right
14:20:00 <zid> it won't ever actually fail but, technically not allowed
14:21:00 <sham1> But why
14:21:00 <kaichiuchi> also I'm really trying to use vim
14:21:00 <kaichiuchi> but god
14:21:00 <kaichiuchi> it's annoying
14:21:00 <zid> cus C supports filesystems that only deal in blocks not chars
14:21:00 <sham1> Oh
14:21:00 <sham1> That... is gross
14:21:00 <zid> which in the modern era is a dumb thing, but was important
14:21:00 <zid> back in the 70s
14:21:00 <sham1> I'm clearly stuck in a POSIX realism
14:21:00 <zid> So now we just use POSIX
14:22:00 <sham1> Everything-is-POSIX. I try to write portably and I fail. F
14:22:00 <zid> which also relaxes some other semantics like interleaving
14:22:00 <zid> It's fun watching people port linux utils to windows then wondering why the fuck they blow up
14:22:00 <zid> msvcrt is *not* using the posix interleaving behavior, it's using the C one
14:23:00 <kaichiuchi> in short though, there's no 100% portable way to get the size of a file
14:23:00 <zid> Which is fine, tbh
14:23:00 <sham1> Eh, not all devices have files
14:23:00 <zid> all the file apis are different anyway
14:23:00 <zid> MapViewOfFile etc
14:23:00 <zid> mmap, C has.. nothing
14:24:00 <kaichiuchi> yeah but at least I could just use std::filesystem::file_size and be done with it
14:24:00 <kaichiuchi> but this is a lie
14:24:00 <sham1> I wouldn't mind having an optional C API for filesystems akin to std::filesystem
14:24:00 <sham1> Yeah
14:24:00 <sham1> C3x when
14:24:00 <sham1> C38
14:25:00 * sham1 pities the fools that are still using 32-bit time_t
14:27:00 <zid> all fs apis suck
14:27:00 <zid> let's make a new, even suckier one
14:28:00 <sham1> This time over the network
14:28:00 <sham1> No, I'm totally not reinventing 9p
14:30:00 <zid> is that nineplan
14:31:00 <sham1> That is indeed the file system communication protocol of plan9 which allowed for neat things like exposing the Acme editor's stuff as files
14:31:00 <zid> but can it do
14:31:00 <zid> cat /dev/cpu/0/cpuid | hexdump -C
14:32:00 <sham1> Probably somehow, I'm not an expert in Plan9
14:34:00 <sham1> But yeah, 9p is neat and in Plan9 allowed things like mounting the (logical) state of applications into the filesystem, making it so that external processes could be used to do $STUFF
14:34:00 <sham1> So kinda similar like exposing a UNIX protocol socket or other such things for UNIX applications
14:35:00 <sham1> With a tad more structure, with it being a filesystem as opposed to just a singular file descriptor
14:37:00 * kof123 pets gog <-- useful use of cat
14:37:00 <kof123> surely that is a useless use of cat hexdump -C < ... ?
14:38:00 <pog> shouldn't you be using stat() to get file size on posix?
14:38:00 <zid> ye
14:38:00 <zid> fstat stat stat64
14:38:00 <zid> take your pick
14:38:00 <pog> the stat family
14:39:00 <sham1> Probably fstat if you have a FILE* as you can just get the FD out of that and then use fstat
14:39:00 <pog> yeh
14:39:00 <zid> statl64_r
14:39:00 <kaichiuchi> stat() on POSIX, GetFileSize(Ex)() on win32
14:39:00 <sham1> Google doesn't even
14:39:00 <zid> It was an parody function
14:39:00 <sham1> Ah, I see
14:39:00 <kaichiuchi> seek to end, ftell, rewind for weak minds
14:39:00 <sham1> Very successful parody
14:40:00 <zid> it was very belief
14:40:00 <kaichiuchi> (and by that I mean "god I hate everything")
14:40:00 <zid> because you don't wanna write 2 lines inside two different ifdefs?
14:40:00 <kaichiuchi> i already did
14:40:00 <kaichiuchi> i just hate having to do it.
14:40:00 <zid> you've spent longer bitching about it than you did writing it
14:40:00 <kaichiuchi> yes
14:40:00 <kaichiuchi> that's how I roll
14:41:00 <sham1> Based
14:41:00 <pog> hell yeah
14:41:00 <pog> bitching about code is way more fun than writing it
14:41:00 <zid> pog: heat is the other kind of trans siberian
14:42:00 <zid> aka poruguese
14:42:00 <sham1> Speaking of bitching about code, tomorrow back to work. Woo
14:42:00 <zid> how many j-novel club coins do you get for that sham
14:43:00 <sham1> Do I look like a weeb to you
14:43:00 <pog> rekt
14:43:00 <zid> yes?
14:44:00 <sham1> Anyway, I work at 50% time (at a minimum) and at that rate I get about a 1000 euros. So about 2000 euros were I full-time
14:44:00 <zid> Okay you have permission to lavish me with gifts
14:45:00 <zid> it wouldn't be finanically responsible for gog to do it, even though I deserve it
14:45:00 <Clockface> i was able to beat GCC by like 0.5% to 3% on a thing that loops 1 billion times
14:46:00 <zid> sounds like measurement error
14:46:00 <sham1> ^
14:46:00 <Clockface> for a program that literally only loops i saw an improvement
14:46:00 <Clockface> i ran both a few dozen times
14:47:00 <Clockface> in most cases the hand written one beat it by a tiny tiny margin
14:47:00 <Clockface> i dont think its practical in most cases
14:47:00 <GeDaMo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-TLSBdHe1A
14:47:00 <bslsk05> '"Performance Matters" by Emery Berger' by Strange Loop Conference (00:42:15)
14:47:00 <Clockface> i had a luaJIT one as well
14:47:00 <Clockface> and it was half the speed of GCC on -O3
14:47:00 <Clockface> so luaJIT is pretty impressive
14:48:00 <Clockface> for a scripting language
14:48:00 <zid> cpus are impressive*
14:48:00 <zid> as long as you give it the gist of what you're trying to do, they do a very good job of being fast regardless
14:48:00 <zid> GeDaMo: Why does he sound like he's talking into a coke can
14:48:00 <sham1> As said by a wise person once, Mike Pall is a robot from the future
14:48:00 <Clockface> CPU's are very smart, but they still have to run the program they are given
14:48:00 <Clockface> they cant magically optimize everything
14:49:00 <zid> they literally don't do the former
14:49:00 <zid> and haven't for 30 years
14:49:00 <sham1> Oh, I can't just have my CPU prove Collaz conjecture
14:49:00 <sham1> Sad
14:49:00 <zid> They very specifically are an abstract machine that runs the machine code as a suggestion instead :P
14:49:00 <zid> out of order microops woo!
14:50:00 <GeDaMo> https://en.wikichip.org/w/images/7/7e/skylake_block_diagram.svg
14:50:00 <Clockface> thats just running their program with extra steps
14:50:00 <zid> often fewer steps
14:50:00 <zid> weirdly
14:51:00 <GeDaMo> Fused micro-ops! :P
14:51:00 <zid> my cpu's view of what a register move is and mine is *very* different
14:51:00 <zid> it mainly just deletes them and rewrites all references
14:52:00 <zid> zen4 revived zen2's memory renamer I hear
14:52:00 <zid> zen3 officially bad and smells
14:54:00 <sham1> https://godbolt.org/z/sxq6GKaME What I like is that C++ just optimised the loop away, while the equivalent C thing actually loops
14:54:00 <bslsk05> godbolt.org: Compiler Explorer
14:55:00 <zid> is that collatz
14:55:00 <sham1> Yes
14:55:00 <zid> calling it in advance: it's collatz, C++ has infinite loops being UB so knows to take the only valid return path
14:56:00 <zid> *clicks*
14:56:00 <zid> yep, collatz UB :P
14:56:00 <sham1> But if the language is changed to C, it doesn't do that
14:56:00 <zid> infinite loops are not UB in C
14:57:00 <pog> zid do you want $5 so you can get your weeb books
14:58:00 <kaichiuchi> i did not know that infinite loops were UB in C++ for a very, very long time
14:58:00 <kaichiuchi> an embarrassingly long time
14:58:00 <zid> pog: I have no way to give them it
14:58:00 <zid> j-novel club bad website
14:58:00 <pog> o
14:58:00 <pog> sorry
14:58:00 <zid> omg pog made j-novel club's website
14:58:00 <zid> now I know who to blame
14:58:00 <pog> :P
14:59:00 <zid> apology NOT ACCEPT, make them add a page where you can gift subs or something
15:00:00 <pog> if i gift you does that make you my sub
15:00:00 <zid> yes
15:00:00 <pog> lol
15:01:00 <zid> I like being held.
15:02:00 <zid> cover me in moss and nuke me in the microwave
15:02:00 <jimbzy> A rolling zid gathers no moss.
15:02:00 <zid> oh hey, a brand new 'group' just appeared
15:02:00 <zid> 'faratnis'
15:03:00 <kaichiuchi> I am really trying to use vim
15:03:00 <kaichiuchi> I swear
15:03:00 <zid> grats
15:03:00 <kaichiuchi> I am trying to learn it but I don't understand how anyone can be productive in it
15:03:00 <zid> did you beat vimtutor yet
15:03:00 <kaichiuchi> no
15:03:00 <sham1> You'll get used t oit
15:03:00 <zid> the boss is pretty hard
15:03:00 <zid> but you need to get under 25% equip load and use more rolls
15:04:00 <sham1> Oh so vim is Hades
15:04:00 <kaichiuchi> ah, you too are a dark souls fan
15:04:00 <zid> wow sham1 you totally missed that reference
15:04:00 <zid> CLEARLY dark souls
15:04:00 <sham1> Look, I don't play difficult games
15:04:00 <kaichiuchi> i struggled deeply with maliketh
15:04:00 <kof123> ^ +equip load. login over dialup at <insert baud here> and see which editor you prefer
15:04:00 <zid> dark souls isn't even difficult
15:04:00 <kaichiuchi> you are so full of shit
15:04:00 <sham1> Obviously ed for if you have low enough baud
15:04:00 <kaichiuchi> it absolutely is difficult
15:05:00 <zid> what dark souls is, is like.. obtuse?
15:05:00 <zid> Once you learn it, the execution is really really simple
15:05:00 <sham1> Dark Souls is the Dark Souls of the Souls genre
15:05:00 <sham1> Soulborne*
15:05:00 <zid> but you have to either cheat and look shit up, or grind your face into concrete for a few hours
15:05:00 <zid> in order to get the knowledge you need to trivialize it
15:05:00 <zid> but once you have, you feel like a fucking god
15:06:00 <zid> It's a bit like world of warcraft tbh, it's a TOTALLY different game now, because people get how to play WoW now
15:06:00 <kaichiuchi> i don't understand how people find out all of the hidden shit in an hour after a game's release
15:06:00 <kaichiuchi> someone please explain it to me
15:06:00 <zid> easy, they're not doing that
15:06:00 <kaichiuchi> they must be
15:06:00 <zid> They are not.
15:06:00 <zid> Things called "review copies" exist
15:06:00 <kaichiuchi> people had elden ring down to a science within a few hours
15:07:00 <zid> elder ring is a) dark souls 3.1
15:07:00 <zid> and b) had months of open testing
15:07:00 <zid> elden*
15:07:00 <zid> so it both uses established data formats you can flood a wiki with via a script in seconds, and b, we literally had the game to play for months before launch
15:08:00 <zid> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU short documentary for ya
15:08:00 <bslsk05> 'Why It's Rude to Suck at Warcraft' by Folding Ideas (01:24:15)
15:09:00 <kaichiuchi> 1 hour and 30 minutes
15:10:00 <zid> 24
15:10:00 <kaichiuchi> i can cry myself to sleep in that time
15:10:00 <zid> it's written right there
15:12:00 <ddevault> I'm in userspace baby
15:12:00 <ddevault> can't get back out of it again but hey that's a problem for future me
15:21:00 <pog> i do not know enough about SQL to be doing what i'm doing rn
15:21:00 <zid> same
15:23:00 <sham1> If someone tells you they know enough SQL, they're lying
15:23:00 <zid> I know enough sql
15:23:00 <zid> That amount is: barely ay
15:23:00 <zid> any*
15:24:00 <Clockface> im glad im not the only one
15:28:00 <Clockface> oh yeah, interesting thing
15:28:00 <Clockface> when i was experimenting with the loops
15:28:00 <Clockface> one of the things i tried was INC until overflow
15:28:00 <Clockface> but it went forever
15:29:00 <Clockface> do INC and DEC not do flags like ADD and SUB?
15:30:00 <zid> why would it not "go forever"
15:30:00 <zid> inc doesn't loop, your loop loops, you need a condition to stop it looping
15:30:00 <kaichiuchi> froot loop
15:30:00 <Clockface> i was using jmp if overflow
15:31:00 <Clockface> it worked and was hair splittingly faster than the normal way GCC did for some reason
15:31:00 <zid> inc sets OF,SF,ZF,AF and PF, CF is unaffected
15:31:00 <Clockface> but i had to use ADD, not inc
15:31:00 <Clockface> ah
15:31:00 <pog> omg i figured it out
15:31:00 <zid> poggers.
15:31:00 <pog> i'm very good at my job
15:32:00 <Clockface> i dident read the manual
15:32:00 <pog> now to convince my boss that altering the stored procedure is totally fine
15:32:00 <zid> pog: Well just try it for a bit and see if anything breaks, duh
15:32:00 <pog> thankfully i'm playing with it in the dev instance
15:32:00 <zid> Everybody has a testing environment, some people are just lucky enough that this isn't also the production environment,.
15:32:00 <pog> which if i totally wreck it it's fine because our test data is about 2 years out of dater
15:33:00 <pog> and i keep telling him we need a new snapshot
15:33:00 <Clockface> nah i think its fiiine
15:40:00 <Clockface> we recently got a testing environment after it was too late
15:40:00 <Clockface> now its nice
15:42:00 <Clockface> what happened before is every change would be submitted in a patch
15:42:00 <Clockface> and then there would be a few panic patches about 5 minutes apart
15:42:00 <Clockface> because something was mildly wrong with it
15:43:00 <pog> i can't really test this without an update to our entity framework but i don't have access to it
15:43:00 <pog> no idea where my boss is and i think my partner is gone home
15:43:00 <zid> you know you're in the corporate mud when you're saying things like ENTITY FRAMEWORK unironically
15:44:00 <pog> gotta get money somehow
15:44:00 <jimbzy> Just go ahead and update it on your production systems. What could possible go wrong?
15:44:00 <pog> i had to break the bad news to my partner earlier that he broke production by forgetting to alter a table
15:44:00 <pog> today
15:44:00 <pog> i don't wanna do it after that
15:45:00 <zid> Take the moral high ground by comitting nothing
15:45:00 <zid> and therefor never breaking prod
15:45:00 <Clockface> we used to have a testing branch but the way it got implemented was really screwed up
15:45:00 <Clockface> and the guy who set it up left
15:45:00 <pog> yeah it'll take them a month to fire me xD
15:45:00 <Clockface> so we dident have one for a while
15:45:00 <Clockface> until someone finally did it right
15:45:00 <zid> I didn't say do no work, just don't do the pushes
15:45:00 <zid> find a patsy
15:46:00 <zid> you'll be CEO in no time
15:46:00 <pog> i'll tell the CEO you said that
15:46:00 <pog> he's sitting across the room from me
15:47:00 <pog> real startup energy when the executives and the office people are all in one big room
15:47:00 <jimbzy> Tell him.
15:47:00 <jimbzy> Look him in the eye and be like, "You're going down..."
15:47:00 <pog> he'd probably laugh at me
15:48:00 <zid> pog: Tell him I offer competitive rates for business advice
15:52:00 <kof123> tell him the energy is lacking, and you have synergy
15:58:00 <pog> oh he's not even here lol
15:58:00 <pog> i didn't even see if he was behind his monitors
15:58:00 <zid> dang, now how will i sell my get rich quick scheme
16:01:00 <pog> my procedure doesn't work when i make it a stored proc
16:01:00 <pog> i am confuse
16:01:00 <pog> i hate sql
16:01:00 <zid> did you forget how to substitute variables in properly
16:01:00 <pog> no i'm psure i did that right
16:01:00 <pog> telling me syntax error near a parentheses
16:02:00 <zid> sounds like you didn't ngl
16:04:00 <pog> hm
16:05:00 <zid> You should use my data as a test, my name is ') DROP TABLE accounts; --
16:05:00 <pog> what
16:06:00 <pog> wtf zid why would you make me do this
16:06:00 <zid> That's the name on my ID
16:06:00 <zid> bobby ') DROP TABLE accounts; --
16:06:00 <pog> little ziddy trables
16:06:00 <zid> that's what they call me
16:06:00 <pog> no such table
16:21:00 <kaichiuchi> jesus I can never take a good fucking picture
16:21:00 <zid> Petition to rename #osdev to #kaichiuchimoaning
16:21:00 <pog> second
16:22:00 <kaichiuchi> what
16:22:00 <kaichiuchi> :(
16:22:00 <zid> motion carried
16:23:00 <kaichiuchi> pog: no more pets for you
16:37:00 <pog> :(
16:37:00 * pog mews sadly
16:37:00 <pog> also my procedure doesn't crash but it also does the wrong thing
16:37:00 <pog> doin a big hmmm here
16:39:00 <pog> yay!
16:39:00 <pog> it does the thing
16:39:00 <zid> give industry secrets
16:39:00 <zid> what did you change
16:39:00 <pog> left join rather than inner join
16:39:00 <zid> o
16:39:00 <zid> boring sql nerd stuff
16:40:00 <pog> breh i just picked up this stuff and figured it out
16:40:00 <pog> i m v smort
16:40:00 <zid> https://www.thecrazyprogrammer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Joins-in-SQL-Inner-Outer-Left-and-Right-Join.jpg do you have this on your wall
16:40:00 <pog> no i fucking hate sql
16:40:00 <pog> and i hope this is the last time i need to deal with stored procedures (it's not, i have like 3 more bugs involving stored procedures)
16:43:00 <kaichiuchi> question
16:43:00 <kaichiuchi> https://kaichiuchi.github.io
16:43:00 <bslsk05> kaichiuchi.github.io: kaichiuchi's corner of the world
16:43:00 <kaichiuchi> does that look ok to everyone's browser
16:45:00 <zid> asked random guy who was uploading ebooks if he could do the one I was missing and he said no, then uploaded it 5 mins later anyway, ?? but I win I guess
16:45:00 <kof123> looks ok in lynx
16:46:00 <pog> you're working on a gb emulator? zid why aren't you working with him
16:46:00 <pog> also it looks fine on firefox
16:47:00 <zid> I wrote mine ages ago
16:47:00 <zid> he saw it at the time
16:47:00 <kaichiuchi> I just keep questioning everything and therefore never get anything but
16:47:00 <kaichiuchi> *anything done
16:47:00 <kaichiuchi> but that's ok
16:47:00 <zid> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/417023075348119556/1062050088748322877/image.png it look like this for me
16:48:00 <kaichiuchi> perfect
16:48:00 <kaichiuchi> it's motherfuckingwebsite inspired
16:49:00 <zid> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/417023075348119556/1062050359587131473/image.png I made it more photorealistic
16:49:00 <pog> maybe i should make a website on github dot io
16:49:00 <zid> https://zid.github.io/ mine is better
16:49:00 <bslsk05> zid.github.io <no title>
16:50:00 <zid> https://zid.github.io/gl.html I just use it to host this mainly
16:50:00 <bslsk05> zid.github.io <no title>
16:50:00 <zid> That took me a VERY long time to write, I don't wanna lose it in a hdd move
16:51:00 <pog> oh hey i remember when you were working on this lol
16:51:00 <pog> you were very frustrated
16:51:00 <ddevault> bah
16:51:00 <ddevault> FOSDEM talk again on perilous grounds
16:51:00 <zid> I'm not sure I'd go that hard, but it was a mess
16:52:00 <ddevault> bah!
16:52:00 <zid> I couldn't figure it out in javascript so I wrote it in C first, true fact
16:52:00 <kof123> just do the projector setup...outside...with ddr
16:52:00 <kof123> this will win over the crowd
16:53:00 <pog> write everythign in C if you can help it
16:53:00 <pog> memory safety is for chumps
16:54:00 <zid> It doesn't allocate anything so it is infact, memory safe
16:54:00 <pog> it doesn't allocate anything on the heap
16:54:00 <zid> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/417023075348119556/774148853745057792/unknown.png
16:54:00 <zid> There found it
16:55:00 <zid> easier to verify shit works if you do it in gnuplot first
16:55:00 <zid> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/417023075348119556/773172246008954890/unknown.png otherwise you get shit like this, it turns out
17:00:00 <pog> neat
17:24:00 <kaichiuchi> hi
17:26:00 <pog> hi
17:26:00 <pog> i'm gonna head home now i think
17:26:00 <pog> i got my sql working correct
17:26:00 <zid> bring pizza for the wife
17:26:00 <pog> she got dinner idk what
17:27:00 <zid> okay just the porn then
17:27:00 <pog> k
17:30:00 <kaichiuchi> i want pizza :(
17:49:00 <zid> https://i.imgur.com/CqO63CM.png
18:02:00 <mjg> :)
18:21:00 <kaichiuchi> i am eating jelly beans instead.
18:21:00 <geist> zid: oh hey finally loaded up the made in abyss soundtrack. sounds pretty good!
18:21:00 <geist> also note to self: need to watch the movie and then S2
18:21:00 <zid> good good
18:21:00 <zid> yes you do
18:21:00 <geist> it's just kinda dark so have to make sure i'm pretty mentally ready for it
18:21:00 <zid> s3 tame at least
18:22:00 <zid> turns back into regular cooking anime
18:22:00 <geist> whaaaa!
18:22:00 <zid> you didn't know made in abyss is a cooking anime?
18:22:00 <geist> Cooking with Mitty!
18:24:00 <zid> Cooking with goggy
18:32:00 <geist> yay teh gog
18:32:00 <gog> hihi
18:32:00 <geist> back to work after 2.5 weeks off!
18:32:00 <geist> i forgot what work is
18:32:00 <gog> nice
18:33:00 <sham1> Work? Is it a food?
18:33:00 <gog> i learned a lot about sql in a very short time today
18:33:00 <zid> sham1: order me a pizza pls
18:33:00 <zid> I got offered to share half an oven pizza but they burnt it so now I have no pizza
18:34:00 <gog> dang
18:34:00 <gog> i had a crispy chicken bowl with lots of daikon and cabbage and hot suace
18:35:00 <zid> I've never had japanese
18:35:00 <gog> sad
18:35:00 <zid> There's a japanese resturant int he city but it's very fancy
18:35:00 <zid> black marble
18:35:00 <geist> you should at least get sushi sometime to experience it, since it's a fairly unique thing
18:36:00 <geist> i dont think i ever had sushi until i was in my 20s, since it at the time did not exist in texas
18:36:00 <zid> and it's mainly chinese food anyway afaik :P
18:36:00 <geist> and thsi is why you should experience it, because you dont know
18:36:00 <zid> you payin?
18:36:00 <geist> if i were in town, sure
18:36:00 <zid> does wagamama count as japanese
18:37:00 <geist> looks like one of those japanese fusion things. maybe, i guess
18:37:00 <geist> kinda like how a PF Changs counts here, but really isn't very good
18:38:00 <zid> this is stupidly expensive and I probably wouldn't like most of it
18:39:00 <gog> i mean what i had today was like korean fusion
18:39:00 <gog> not japanese
18:39:00 <zid> daikons and grilled chicken is all japanese people at
18:39:00 <zid> eat
18:39:00 <zid> I've seen tv
18:39:00 <gog> i'm having fish for dinner again
18:40:00 * gog chomp fishy
18:40:00 <geist> yah good korean food is great too. can be very spicy
18:40:00 <gog> yes
18:40:00 <geist> nom!
18:40:00 <zid> we mainly use indian food for that niche
18:40:00 <gog> love the spicy garlic soy sauce the place i went to today has
18:40:00 <zid> lots of expat indians here running resturants
18:41:00 <gog> yeh we have good indian food here too but it's often not spicy enough
18:41:00 <gog> i need spicy spicy
18:41:00 <Ermine> Go to India, they have spicy everything
18:41:00 <geist> well great indian food is also yum
18:42:00 <geist> had some goat curry the other day that was amazing
18:42:00 <zid> I want a stack of poppadoms so high the bottom one has been crushed
18:42:00 <zid> and some extra spicy madras
18:42:00 <zid> and pilau
18:42:00 <geist> one of the bummers of moving out into the woods like i did is the restaurants here and far and few between and very expensive
18:42:00 <geist> so i rarely eat out
18:45:00 <mjg> no sensible delivery options?
18:45:00 <zid> That requires hiring sherpas
18:45:00 <zid> to trek them up half a mountain to his cabin
18:45:00 <zid> 14 lives have been lost so far, but he keeps ordering
18:46:00 <geist> mjg: well sure, but that makes it even more expensive
18:46:00 <mjg> > sensible
18:46:00 <geist> it's not the getting to it, it's that there's only like one indian place, one thai place, one japanese place, and they're all mostly middling quality and expensive
18:46:00 <mjg> sounds like a good neighborhood
18:46:00 <mjg> ;)
18:47:00 <mjg> sounds a lot like my hometown, except you don't even have any of the oriental stuff
18:47:00 <mjg> the most 'exotic' it gets is pizza
18:47:00 <kaichiuchi> in my area some japanese immigrants from tokyo opened up a sushi restaurant here
18:47:00 <geist> and it's not that the ethnic stuff is pushed out, there just really arent very many good restaursans. or the ones that are good are hyper expensive ones designed for tourists
18:47:00 <kaichiuchi> i've been going to that restaurant more than I should.
18:47:00 <zid> why's it always sushi
18:47:00 <zid> I wanna try udon
18:48:00 <gog> udon wanna miss it
18:48:00 <zid> and weird vegetables I will definitely hate
18:48:00 <geist> that's part of the problem, the island is also a tourist spot, so most of the stuff that does exist is tuned for separating tourists from money
18:48:00 <geist> ie, no real Local Dives
18:48:00 <kaichiuchi> (don't know why the hell you'd want to come to america if you live in tokyo, but)
18:48:00 <mjg> oh man
18:48:00 <mjg> geist: are you in hawaii?
18:48:00 <zid> tokyo's expensive as fuck an you will work yourself to death
18:48:00 <geist> mjg: oh hawaii would probably have some fantastic local spots once you find it
18:48:00 <geist> no, it's just an island across from seattle
18:48:00 <zid> so if you don't mind dodging gunfire, the US can work
18:48:00 <mjg> lol
18:48:00 <mjg> i think you are missing on life twice here
18:48:00 <geist> so tourists are like day tourists that take a ferry over and piddle around
18:49:00 <geist> lots of antique stores, expensive restaurants, etc
18:49:00 <kaichiuchi> i live in the US
18:49:00 <gog> rvk is basically entirely for tourists now it seems
18:49:00 <gog> or at least the parts that are fun and interesting
18:49:00 <mjg> geist: so what's good about the place for day to day life
18:50:00 <geist> woods. lots of trails. quiet
18:50:00 <mjg> you just like the view?
18:50:00 <mjg> nice
18:50:00 <geist> a bit cheaper than seattle
18:50:00 <geist> near family, etc
18:50:00 <mjg> interstingly 's like my hometown in that regard, except perhaps you are more civilized so to speak
18:50:00 <geist> i moved out at the start of the pandemic because i really was feeling caged up being trapped in a city where i couldn't do anything
18:52:00 <geist> kaichiuchi: i forgot where approx are you in US? just curious
18:53:00 <kaichiuchi> pennsylvania
18:53:00 <geist> oh that's right, yeah
18:53:00 <kaichiuchi> near philadelphia
18:53:00 <kaichiuchi> not exactly a good place to live
18:53:00 <geist> i have a little database in my head of people and where they generally are
18:53:00 <zid> geist where am I
18:53:00 <zid> help I am lost
18:53:00 <geist> UK i think
18:53:00 <kaichiuchi> my assumption is germany
18:53:00 <geist> since you're a cheeky bastard
18:53:00 <mjg> move to Baltimore
18:53:00 <zid> Okay that narrows it down to 4 countries and some overseas territories at least
18:54:00 <mjg> zid: so india?
18:54:00 <geist> nah mrvn is germany
18:54:00 <zid> so I'm either in america, europe, asia or oceania
18:54:00 <geist> heat is the odd one out: portugal!
18:54:00 <mjg> pl for short!
18:54:00 <geist> and mjg i forget. one of those countries without enough vowels in names
18:54:00 <zid> Doesn't really work as well for saying where someone is geographically with "UK" as it does with most other countries :P
18:54:00 <zid> poland
18:55:00 <mjg> if i could pronounce it, i would!
18:55:00 <geist> zid: yeah but it's a safe bet, because if i say scotland and they're irish or whatnot they'll shank you
18:55:00 <mjg> zid: nope! that's the counry of origin
18:55:00 <geist> so you say UK to generally play it safe
18:55:00 <zid> geist: britain, then?
18:55:00 <mjg> it's not offensive to be too general?
18:55:00 <geist> see it's a trap!
18:55:00 <zid> UK is the country, britain is the place off of france
18:56:00 <geist> yes yes i know this. but again i dont know precisey which part
18:56:00 <zid> great britain is the big island, LESSER BRITAIN is what I say to get stabbed by irish people
18:56:00 <geist> so UK is the overall thing
18:56:00 <geist> like generally that large blob of stuff off the european mainland
18:56:00 <zid> They prefer 'irish isles' but they're wrong obvs
18:56:00 <mjg> you are a mad lad zid
18:56:00 <geist> and yeah could be Isle of Man or something
18:56:00 <mjg> zid: so what's the most offensive thing you can call an englishman?
18:56:00 <zid> mjg: Happy
18:56:00 <mjg> zid: by that i mean someone born and raised in london
18:57:00 <zid> londoners know they're scum
18:57:00 <mjg> "you scottish chap 1st gen migrant"?
18:57:00 <geist> zid: anyway, you *are* in britain right? where approx?
18:57:00 <zid> "DO THEY SPEAK ENGLISH IN LONDON?"
18:57:00 <zid> geist: england, east of
18:57:00 <geist> out in the stix?
18:57:00 <zid> ye
18:57:00 <mjg> east of england? that's not where the scotts are
18:57:00 <zid> in some fields a bunch of distance from cmabridge
18:57:00 <geist> woot. yay living in not a big city
18:58:00 <geist> honestly i've only been to around london, cambridge or once a trip west to bristol
18:58:00 <zid> It'd be just as easy to get to anywhere else as cambridge though, still need to do busses to train stations and take trains, either way
18:58:00 <geist> i'd like to take a train up to Edinburgh some day
18:58:00 <zid> Hope you brought your wallet
18:58:00 <geist> yeah, dunno what the rate is now
18:58:00 <zid> train to edinburgh's like £8000 each way
18:59:00 <geist> well beats driving on the wrong side of the road
18:59:00 <geist> i mean i love a great road trip but i'm a bit scared of dealing with both a manual stickshift and on the wrong side at the same time.
18:59:00 <zid> a single from me to edin on a saturday is.. £60
18:59:00 <geist> i'm sure the stickshift could get used to pretty quick (wrong arm) but not at the same time as not turning into the wrong lane
19:00:00 <mjg> see, do you think they have convos like this on discord? i bet not
19:00:00 <mjg> bunch of wankers
19:00:00 <zid> Found one for £496
19:00:00 <GeDaMo> Don't forget about the roundabouts :P
19:00:00 <geist> roundabouts i'm totally fine with. i think they're great. wish we had more here
19:01:00 <geist> surprisingly washington state has a fair amount of them, so enough that if you drive around here you get pretty used to them (or die)
19:01:00 <geist> but roundabouts in the other direction! (i assume they're clockwise in UK?)
19:01:00 <zid> anytime return ticket from me to edin, first class, £496, bargain
19:01:00 <zid> no you go over the middle while honking usually
19:02:00 <geist> drove through a ton of them in canada last week
19:02:00 <zid> that's the spirit
19:02:00 <zid> right over and through
19:03:00 <geist> is kinda funny, there's a mini roundabout in town a few miles from here that is too small for large trucks to go aorund, so they specifically built it as a large speedbump so the trucks can just drive over it
19:03:00 <geist> but then of course that sends a mixed message to folks that come up with it on a car
19:03:00 <zid> https://media.wired.com/photos/5926d4b5cefba457b079b48d/191:100/w_1280,c_limit/Screen-Shot-2016-08-02-at-4.35.47-PM-3.jpg It's easy, you line up for where you wanna go, and floor it
19:03:00 <geist> ike, uh is this an actual roundabout?
19:03:00 <zid> yea mini-roundabouts are real
19:04:00 <geist> i ean it obviously is, but you never know if someone else sees it the same way
19:04:00 <zid> "Mini-roundabouts can incorporate a painted circle or a low dome but must be fully traversable by vehicles. Motorists can drive over them when there is no other traffic, but it is dangerous to do so otherwise."
19:04:00 <geist> and sure enough there's this old lady that lives nearby that i've personally seen just plow straight over it more than once
19:04:00 <zid> It's just a system of paint to organize drivers coming near each other
19:05:00 <geist> well and removed the 4 way stop sign that was there too
19:05:00 <geist> there were a bunch in seattle that i hadn't seen before called 'traffic calming circles' which are pretty annoying
19:05:00 <zid> Although I think the rule is that if you *can* make it you should do
19:05:00 <geist> basically a tree or something with a hard curb in the middle of the intersection that you h ave to drive around
19:06:00 <geist> and the law on it is kinda ambiguous like 'you should drive around it like a circle but you dont have to'
19:06:00 <zid> that they're annoying means they're working
19:06:00 <geist> oh totally
19:06:00 <zid> US has massive car-dependance issues that stops a lot of basic stuff from working
19:06:00 <zid> notjustbikes has a new lovely video every few weeks because of it at least
19:08:00 <geist> yeah though it varys a lot. different cities have different amounts of it. in general 'us sucks because X' vids and whatnot you see tend to present is as homogenous bad place
19:08:00 <geist> but it's a huge country with lots of differing cultures and ways of doing things
19:08:00 <zid> The US is genuinely like it all over
19:08:00 <zid> there's nowhere to escape from it
19:09:00 * geist shrugs, not gonna fall of that trap
19:09:00 <zid> Name a contiguous US state without a stroad
19:10:00 <geist> not interested in drilling into 'country X sucks or Y is better'
19:10:00 <zid> Nobody sad anything of the sort
19:10:00 <geist> aint my first rodeo
19:11:00 <zid> or even came close to saying anything of the sort
19:11:00 <zid> Is this the catholic guilt stuff I hear about
19:11:00 <geist> haha
19:11:00 <geist> CONFESS
19:11:00 <zid> "someone mentioned me, I muist have been a bad boy"
19:11:00 <geist> confess your pre-crime
19:13:00 <zid> "US's issues are complicated so basic techniques are often not correct" "Stop saying the US sucks" <-- my reading
19:14:00 <geist> sigh. sorry i just dont want to continue talking about this
19:15:00 <geist> because my mind has shifted over to work, booting up and updating computers, etc
19:15:00 <zid> do that then lol?
19:15:00 <geist> indeed!
19:15:00 <geist> that's what i am!
19:15:00 <zid> My recommendation is *not* to underhandily call me a xenophobe, just don't engage in conversations you don't wanna engage in, and engage in the ones you do
19:16:00 <geist> i was trying to stop the conversation so you knew to stop too, but thats my gen X coming through. i haven't learned the art of gen z ghosting people
19:16:00 <geist> i find it terribly annoying when people wander off in the middle of conversations, but that's the norm nowadays i think
19:16:00 <zid> Posting flamebait ain't going to stop a convo ime
19:16:00 <geist> okay fine!
19:16:00 <geist> i am going to disengage without admitting guilt, because
19:17:00 <geist> i disagree with your assesment, but i really dont care to keep going with this. end of line.
19:17:00 <kaichiuchi> um
19:17:00 <kaichiuchi> does anyone want pizza
19:18:00 <zid> I already tried that
19:18:00 <gog> yes
19:18:00 <gog> but i'm having fish instead
19:18:00 <zid> we're full circle
19:19:00 <zid> gog: What's iceland like for roads? Ours are weird.
19:19:00 <kaichiuchi> god you guys and your fish
19:19:00 <geist> well fish *is* good
19:19:00 <gog> zid: we're like the US. lousy with cars
19:19:00 <kaichiuchi> fish is indeed very good
19:19:00 <geist> PNW style is to just toss a bunch of salmon in it. boom local cuisine
19:19:00 <zid> yea us too, not quite as stroady though
19:19:00 <gog> streets are clear of snow and ice and cars can move freely, but if you're a pedestrian you're taking your life into your own hands
19:19:00 <gog> we have fewer stroads
19:20:00 <zid> we're like, a mix of "omg cars cars" and "actually, this is a nice place for an umbrella and some chairs"
19:20:00 <gog> but we have almost as many cars per capita as the US
19:20:00 <zid> Is that because of jim who owns 6 cars
19:20:00 <zid> and the other 5 of you share one
19:20:00 <zid> so there are 7 cars per 6 people
19:21:00 <gog> mostly it's because the population is sparse except for like two districts of reykjavík
19:21:00 <gog> but even all the midrises have big car parks
19:21:00 <zid> The city I am closest to has half the population of iceland apparently
19:21:00 <gog> yeh
19:22:00 <zid> yea we thankfully mainly don't fall into the trap of actually putting parking spaces everywhere
19:22:00 <gog> in any case, i don't want to have to own a car again
19:22:00 <gog> i always hated it
19:22:00 <zid> (just makes everybody drive to that place, and then traffic increases by 50% from people looking for parking)
19:22:00 <zid> everybody hates london because you can't park :D
19:25:00 <gog> wtf i love london now
19:26:00 <zid> You *can* park but it's like £90/hr
19:26:00 <zid> japan solves it by not allowing you to register a vehicle without somewhere to keep it
19:27:00 <zid> we just make it too expensive
19:27:00 <kaichiuchi> if I could avoid driving, I would
19:27:00 <kaichiuchi> but it's impossible
19:27:00 <kaichiuchi> we don't have fancy high speed trains everywhere like the rest of europe :(
19:28:00 <zid> That's actually a weird side-issue
19:28:00 <zid> most people barely interact with trains in europe also, but we don't do the weird zoning that US cities all seem to do
19:29:00 <zid> where the core is all skycrapers that everybody needs to drive to, and then the outskirts are zoned for single family town houses exclusively, creating hundreds of square miles of wasted space
19:29:00 <zid> Like if you pick any random map of a big US city without a subway, it's 30% parking lots
19:30:00 <geist> kaichiuchi: but you still get the accela trains and whatot run through the corridor between DC and NYC though right?
19:30:00 <zid> everything gets more spaced out because of them, so more cars, so wider roads, so more spaced out, so more cars
19:30:00 <kaichiuchi> geist: i've never been anywhere near those trains
19:30:00 <geist> ah
19:30:00 <geist> seems like they'd run right through philadelphia
19:30:00 <zid> gog: your road signage looks very similar to ours, did you steal it
19:30:00 <kaichiuchi> well put it this way
19:31:00 <kaichiuchi> I'm 60 miles away from philadelphia
19:31:00 <geist> ah
19:31:00 <kaichiuchi> but I commute to work
19:31:00 <zid> but yea, this is VERY car-y, wow
19:31:00 <geist> yeah
19:31:00 <kaichiuchi> takes me about an hour
19:31:00 <kaichiuchi> where I live, it's mostly known for its manufacturing enterprises
19:31:00 <geist> yah that's the biggest downside of moving into the woods, i now have about an hour and a half commute, though not using a car
19:31:00 <zid> also everything is apparently under construction
19:31:00 <geist> but it's ferry + walking + bus
19:31:00 <kaichiuchi> yeah I am shocked you moved into the woods
19:31:00 <kaichiuchi> everything is far away from you
19:32:00 <geist> except lots of trees and wildlife
19:32:00 <kaichiuchi> how the hell is your internet even good
19:32:00 <geist> it's not great
19:32:00 <geist> that was a downgrade
19:32:00 <kaichiuchi> yeah i'd lose it
19:32:00 <kaichiuchi> heh
19:32:00 <geist> oh i mean whe i was lookinga t houses maybe 50% of them i had to completely just scrub out because didn't have good network
19:32:00 <mjg> geist: quite frankly your current household sounds like a long weekend getaway location
19:32:00 <geist> usually crummy DSL. this one actually has cable which is kinda surprising, but cool
19:33:00 <mjg> geist: not a place for actual living
19:33:00 <geist> yeah, it's a tradeoff for sure. but honestly at the start of the pandemic i had no idea how long it was going to go, etc
19:33:00 <mjg> well you do you man
19:33:00 <geist> turned out to be a good time, because the housing market was starting to blow up
19:33:00 <geist> and the interest rates on mortgages were very very low, like historically low
19:33:00 <mjg> as someone who grew up in shitty conditions i appreciate not having to maintain squat
19:33:00 <mjg> in my day to day
19:34:00 <geist> oh totally. honestly i kinda like maintaining squat. gives me something to do
19:34:00 <geist> which sounds silly, but it's how i stay sane. doing things, all the time
19:34:00 <mjg> :)
19:34:00 <zid> gog: jesus this is carry
19:34:00 <zid> Car-y
19:34:00 <mjg> geist: well if you are down to move to poland i have place just for yu man
19:34:00 <geist> heh
19:34:00 <mjg> geist: albeit locals don't speak english, which you may treat as an additional challenge
19:35:00 <geist> i think i'm a little too old to learn a new language. actually not really. but that would be an additional challenge i wouldn't want to take on
19:35:00 <geist> or at least polish... i dunno that's not my first pick of languages to be immersed in, to be honest
19:35:00 <zid> I found a stroad full of carparks, iceland confirmed 51st state
19:36:00 <mjg> but rly, there is this mindset that if you don't have work to do after work, you are just lazy
19:36:00 <mjg> and by work after work i mean something you have to do
19:36:00 <geist> yeah, i can see that. different cultures/subcultures have these different base assumptions about hard working
19:36:00 <mjg> for example common in that area is burning wood and coal during winter
19:36:00 <geist> anyway, on that topic, back to work!
19:37:00 <mjg> so in the summer people go to their forests, cut down dead trees and so on
19:37:00 <mjg> ez few weeks of work to stack up on wood
19:37:00 <mjg> and then in the winter, apparent from all the snowploing by hand, you have to maintain the fire
19:37:00 <mjg> 's like larping in the 1800s
19:38:00 <mjg> with the one exception that you have a chainsaw
19:38:00 <mjg> s/apparent/apart/
19:38:00 <mjg> wtf keyboard
19:56:00 <geist> heh, rebooting out of hibernation on my work workstation always takes like 15 minues. either the compression of all of the memory pages is ridicululously hard core or the decompression is terribly slow
19:56:00 <geist> probably both. you can see it blipping the hard disk, but it can't take *that* long
19:56:00 <geist> just about the time you give up it finishes
19:57:00 <mjg> what algo?
19:59:00 <geist> beats me, whatever linux is doing to squirt the hibernate state down on disk
20:00:00 <geist> it's almost like it's some N^2 thing with the number of pages in the system. this machine has a fairly high amount of ram (192GB) and it seems to be particularly bad at recovering
20:00:00 <mjg> not easy to trace that one, huh? :)
20:01:00 <geist> yeah
20:02:00 <gog> oh dang
20:02:00 <gog> that's a lot of ram
20:03:00 <geist> ah there we go, finished. about 10 minutes i think
20:03:00 <zid> 192GB in 15 seconds is >10GB/s though?
20:03:00 <mjg> that's some supercomputer shit right there if you larp the 90s
20:03:00 <zid> oh MINUTES
20:03:00 <geist> yah
20:03:00 <mjg> if i was to blindly guess
20:03:00 <zid> 21MB/s then :P
20:03:00 <mjg> it would be that they do writes in parallel
20:03:00 <mjg> and they trash the drive
20:04:00 <mjg> and maybe lolo blocksize
20:04:00 <geist> possible. but it's really not nailing the drive. it's blipping about once a second, maybe 20% duty cycle
20:04:00 <geist> the rest is presumably uncompressing
20:04:00 <mjg> i wuld not trust any blipping
20:04:00 <geist> possible, but these are nvme, etc, so it's not like it has a seek time
20:04:00 <gog> ostensibly all a good portion of those 192gbs are page cache
20:04:00 <mjg> i mean there is lies, damned lies, politician statemetns and firmware indicators of anything
20:05:00 <gog> i wonder what your actual working set is at time of hibernate
20:05:00 <gog> s/is/was
20:05:00 <geist> yah i'm guessing if it's smart it dumps the page cache before hibernating. looknig at top now it's about... 10GB of used ram, 38GB of buffer cache (after running some updates)
20:05:00 <geist> so assuming it dumped the entire buffer cache it was really only restoring 10GB
20:06:00 <gog> there's some other major inefficiency in the process then
20:06:00 <gog> integrity checking?
20:06:00 <geist> yeah dunno, good questoin. it could also literally be some sort of dumb N^2 thing, like it has a list of pages to restore, and it's doing some sort of linked list search for every page or something
20:07:00 <gog> there are a lot of linked lists in struct page
20:07:00 <zid> 21MB/s is about right if it's compressed *really* good and you're on a wbeserver cpu and it's single core
20:07:00 <gog> that reference struct page
20:07:00 <zid> how many ghz you got
20:07:00 <mjg> ok mofoz, seriously, stop handwaving and check the code
20:07:00 <geist> zid: yeah i suspect it is single threaded at this point, probably restoring in some sort of pre-kernel portion
20:07:00 <gog> no
20:07:00 <geist> more fun to theorize before looking
20:07:00 <geist> and anyway i kinda make it a point not to look at linux code
20:07:00 <zid> 800MHz of pure riscv power on the decompression
20:08:00 <mjg> geist: right
20:08:00 <zid> 21MB/s would be blazing
20:08:00 <gog> never look at linux
20:08:00 <zid> never look at other people's code
20:08:00 <zid> it'll make your stomach churn
20:09:00 <mjg> bro
20:09:00 <mjg> i recently tried to learn me some rust, that sent me the rabbit hole
20:09:00 <gog> my own code is nauseating enough
20:09:00 <mjg> rust is doing some questionable things vs stat, fstat and the rest of the family
20:09:00 <mjg> ... and linux is making it worse
20:09:00 <geist> yup
20:10:00 <gog> i wonder how my boss doesn't get sick every time i send a PR
20:10:00 <mjg> rust aside, linux has a "new" syscall to getattr: statx
20:10:00 <geist> mjg: though if you do have specific things that are really bugs/etc i can probably make sure they get looked at
20:10:00 <geist> a few of the core team does work near my organizationally
20:11:00 <mjg> geist: i wrote a patch for rust https://dpaste.com/BCQC7ZDV3 ; have not figured out how to compile it yet though :)
20:11:00 <bslsk05> dpaste.com <no title>
20:11:00 <zid> is rm -rf a patch
20:11:00 <mjg> geist: that said, if i run into trouble getting someone to act on it, i'll be happy to prod you
20:14:00 <mjg> back to the linux remark, there is no dedicated fd-based variant to get the struct
20:14:00 <mjg> instead you pass the fd, "" name (not NULL!) and AT_EMPTY_PATH flag
20:15:00 <mjg> the problem with the "" name is that you suffer memory alloc/free *and* more imporantly clac/stac trip
20:15:00 <mjg> the latter is quite expensive
20:15:00 <geist> ah, so statx has a simpler version
20:15:00 <mjg> but it is known at caller side, so to speak, that there is no name
20:16:00 <mjg> the kenrel just does not provide any way to take advantage of it
20:16:00 <mjg> which i'm very negatively surprised by
20:16:00 <geist> yah bummer it even accesses the string first. seems the kernel coul at least look at the flag and then simply not user copy the string pointer
20:16:00 <mjg> i suspect some standard-related fuckery has something to say about the flag and specific content
20:16:00 <geist> yeah and or layering
20:17:00 <mjg> anyhow my proposal would be to simply tolerate NULL
20:17:00 <mjg> + the flag
20:17:00 <geist> where some layer outside that doesn't know about flags already makes the copy before passing it in
20:17:00 <mjg> and in that case demand a valid fd
20:17:00 <geist> yah totally
20:17:00 <mjg> but need to get some numbers first to justify working on it
20:17:00 <mjg> all while my real work is chasing me for other numbers :s
20:17:00 <heat> did we unironically create a rust-head
20:18:00 <mjg> me?
20:18:00 <heat> yes
20:18:00 <mjg> so far the things i found in bowels of rust are rather concerning to me, but perhaps i just happened to be looking in the least good place
20:18:00 <mjg> and it is not representative
20:18:00 <geist> mjg seems to go right for performance, right for the jugular. drop them on a deserted island and you start optimizing the palm trees
20:18:00 <mjg> anyway they are fixable so...
20:19:00 <mjg> geist: look, the claim is that rust is a systems language, a 0 cost abstraction c replacement
20:19:00 <geist> oh totally, i mean that in a nice way
20:19:00 <mjg> geist: so i had a look and so far it is not
20:19:00 <geist> agreed
20:19:00 <geist> OTOH it seems that most of the die hards admit this freely but then in the next sentence say it's basically the price of safety
20:20:00 <mjg> change the marketing and i'll change the tone
20:20:00 <mjg> :)
20:21:00 <mjg> btw glibc is also affected by it. statx is the source of truth internally all other callers use to get their data
20:21:00 <mjg> and glibc switched fstat(fd, ...) to newfstatat(fd, "", AT_EMPTY_PATH, ....)
20:21:00 <mjg> like wtf man
20:23:00 <geist> it's part of the arm conspiracy: down with architecutres that have CLAC/STAC!
20:23:00 <geist> (the arm64 equivalent is basically free)
20:24:00 <mjg> oh?
20:25:00 <geist> it's called PAN (priviledged access never). you can toggle the bit if you want, a-la clac/stac, and it also automatically clears the bit on exception entry so you dont have the recursion problem
20:25:00 <geist> or you can just leave it set permanently and write your user_copy routine to use an alternate load/store instruction that explicitly bypasses it
20:25:00 <geist> linux/etc does the latter
20:26:00 <geist> the advantage of doing it second
20:26:00 <gog> pan pan pan
20:26:00 <geist> i always remember these 80s commercials about PAM the spray on greese thing
20:27:00 <heat> mjg, iirc fstat isn't available on new archs
20:27:00 <geist> https://youtu.be/dHfugnMIw_c omg it's worse than i remember
20:27:00 <bslsk05> '80s - Pam Cooking Spray Commercial' by Retro Television Airwaves (00:00:15)
20:28:00 <heat> actually, no.
20:28:00 <heat> there may be some differnence
20:28:00 <heat> musl's fstat also uses fstatat
20:32:00 <sortie> intel people
20:32:00 <sortie> show yourself
20:32:00 <sortie> I'm picking a fight
20:32:00 <geist> hi sortie!
20:32:00 * mjg is wearing and amd shirt
20:33:00 <heat> mjg, i think I know why they use statx
20:33:00 <sortie> Operator patch me through to the right multinational
20:33:00 <heat> 64-bit time on 32-bit archs
20:33:00 <heat> :))
20:34:00 <mjg> that is plausible, but useflness of statx itself is not the point of contention here
20:34:00 <mjg> just the deficiency of the api
20:34:00 <sortie> I got a Intel Corporation 82579LM Gigabit Network Connection (Lewisville) [8086:1502] <https://paste.ahti.space/07c960.html> and I need to find the pdf that tells me how to program the ethernet controller
20:34:00 <bslsk05> paste.ahti.space <no title>
20:35:00 <sortie> I only found https://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/82579datasheetvol21.pdf but it seems to be about the Intel ® 82579 Gigabit Ethernet PHY and doesn't have the useful documentation on how to reset and initialize the controller, like I have in the pdfs for the older 825xx devices I got
20:35:00 <zid> yea it's a pain
20:35:00 <zid> these docs are all over the damn place with whether they cover the regs, or the phy, or both
20:35:00 <heat> https://github.com/kostikbel/rere
20:35:00 <bslsk05> kostikbel/rere - Realtek vendor driver for re(4) for FreeBSD (2 forks/8 stargazers)
20:35:00 <heat> thank god there's an open source vendor driver
20:36:00 <heat> for reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee(4)
20:36:00 <zid> I think any 82xxx driver will work though tbh
20:36:00 <heat> https://i.imgur.com/vHJ4tD6.png
20:36:00 <sortie> When I use my driver in my laptop, it resets the device and I get an interrupt when the link is coming up, but the PHY doesn't respond when I try to read its registers, and the receive and transmit of packets necer happen
20:37:00 <sortie> So I think I'm not initializing the PHY properly and my working hypothesis is that something changed in these newer models and I'm trying to figure out what that is
20:38:00 <sortie> Specifically I end up timing out in this case https://gitlab.com/sortix/sortix/-/blob/staging/kernel/net/em/em.cpp#L476
20:38:00 <bslsk05> gitlab.com: kernel/net/em/em.cpp · staging · sortix / Sortix · GitLab
20:40:00 <heat> oh shit lmao
20:41:00 <heat> i linked you the wrong vendor driver
20:41:00 <heat> its no longer hilarious
20:43:00 <mjg> geist: btw cascade like, 5.15.0-1020-aws kernel, legacy fstat vs newfstatat
20:44:00 <mjg> legacy fstat: min:6854059 max:6854059 total:6854059
20:44:00 <mjg> newstatat: min:3205251 max:3205251 total:3205251
20:44:00 <mjg> literally less than half of the original performance
20:44:00 <mjg> syscall(5, fd, &sb) vs syscall(262, fd, "", &sb, AT_EMPTY_PATH)
20:44:00 <heat> yeah but that's like a very unrealistic bench isn't it
20:45:00 <mjg> what
20:45:00 <sortie> https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/manuals/pcie-gbe-controllers-open-source-manual.pdf documents up to 82573, that gets me closer to 82579
20:45:00 <mjg> heat: people fstat to simply get the size all day man
20:45:00 <mjg> heat: this is a loss with no benefit
20:45:00 <heat> but you don't call fstat in a loop
20:45:00 <mjg> heat: aand one which can be largely mitigated by allowing NULL paths
20:45:00 <heat> also fwiw https://elixir.bootlin.com/musl/latest/source/src/stat/fstatat.c#L77
20:45:00 <bslsk05> elixir.bootlin.com: fstatat.c - src/stat/fstatat.c - Musl source code (v1.2.3) - Bootlin
20:45:00 <mjg> no, it is called in a loop to higlight the diff between the 2 tyeps
20:46:00 <mjg> someone had the right idea
20:46:00 <mjg> :)
20:46:00 <mjg> you should not need to hack like that in userspace though, shiould you
20:46:00 <mjg> so the author implemented what i'm suggesting, except in his lib instead of the kernel
20:47:00 <heat> it seems that glibc is deficient here
20:47:00 <mjg> look man, fstat aside, statx is the future and that needs to support fd-only lookup
20:47:00 <mjg> in order to avoid the massive slowdown
20:48:00 <mjg> and currently the only way to get statx output is to call it with fd and a path, even if you just to de facto fstat
20:48:00 <mjg> things would go a long way if the kernel, for example, recognized NULL as a valid condition where only the fd is to be looked at
20:49:00 <mjg> if anything i'm confused how on earth is this not a thing from the get go
20:49:00 <mjg> if there is one system where i expect people to measure anything, it would be linux
20:49:00 <mjg> and then this pile of crap drops
20:52:00 <heat> mjg, why is clac/stac so slow though?
20:52:00 <heat> is it clac/stac or memory alloc?
20:52:00 <mjg> it is clac/stac
20:52:00 <mjg> i have no idea why, ask intel and amd
20:52:00 <mjg> if i was to speculate, i would guess they implement it with as a full barrier
20:53:00 <mjg> so apart from flipping a bit they dodge any worries about reordered loads and stores
20:53:00 <mjg> as in it is guarantees the cpu will not leak up some loads across clac
20:54:00 * gog clacs around
20:54:00 <mjg> apart from whatever other overhead
20:54:00 <heat> >if i were to speculate
20:54:00 <heat> hehehehehhehehehehe
20:54:00 <mjg> what
20:54:00 <gog> hehehehehe
20:54:00 <mjg> speculative execution?
20:54:00 <mjg> hehe.. or some other boomer humor
20:54:00 <heat> yes
20:54:00 <gog> that's it
20:54:00 <mjg> yes what
20:54:00 <gog> heat heat heat
20:54:00 <heat> gog
20:54:00 <mjg> fish
20:54:00 <gog> bzinga
20:55:00 <heat> gog gog gog
20:55:00 <gog> bzimage
20:55:00 <mjg> zimbabwe
20:55:00 <mjg> i bet onyx pulls of faster stat than linux now!
20:55:00 <heat> onyx implements the same API sweetie
20:55:00 <mjg> fstat i mean
20:55:00 <gog> i have the fastest stat of them all
20:55:00 <gog> none
20:55:00 <gog> i don't have a filesystem
20:55:00 <mjg> heat: oh no
20:55:00 <mjg> i bet onyx sucks the same as linux now!
20:57:00 <mjg> btw top of the profile is memset calls
20:57:00 <mjg> which gcc fails to optmize away
20:57:00 <mjg> interstingly they had an obvious hack: fill out padding by hand and verify with KASAN there is no problem
20:57:00 <mjg> which got lost in statx transition
20:57:00 <mjg> hence ^^^
20:58:00 <mjg> will patch that too
20:58:00 <mjg> as in they memset a buf prior to copy_to_user just to handle gaps
20:58:00 <mjg> but really they only need to sort out few bytes
21:04:00 <sham1> Who needs a file system anyway
21:05:00 <jimbzy> Right?
21:05:00 <sham1> All you need is a database
21:05:00 * jimbzy groans...
21:06:00 <energizer> isn't that what longhorn was supposed to do
21:06:00 <energizer> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinFS
21:08:00 <kof123> i imagine that is an ancient thing...when the operating system to run a single application or so...
21:08:00 <kof123> which is not to say either way, just may have been less delineation once upon a time
21:08:00 <kof123> *to favor
21:09:00 <kof123> *was basically to run *lean mean typo machine
21:10:00 <kof123> maybe i think of it as an mvc thing. can sql be merely an interface (or vice versa, file system API) ...with the actual mechanism opaque
21:11:00 <energizer> sure, there are lots of databases that work in different ways
21:53:00 <heat> mjg, tbf I really wasn't expecting clac and stac to be expensive
21:53:00 <heat> but that's what you get for not adding new load-user and store-user instructions
21:58:00 <mjg> heat: so at some point freebsd added some changes which had a side effect of inducing a one-byte user access on syscall entry
21:59:00 <mjg> perf hit i measured at the time on AMD EPYC 7571 for getuid was:
21:59:00 <mjg> before: min:10414995 max:10414995 total:10414995
21:59:00 <mjg> after: min:6606729 max:6606729 total:6606729
21:59:00 <mjg> or over 33% just from that bit
22:00:00 <mjg> note the particular cpu is not very fast, so the slodown is also smaller
22:00:00 <mjg> as in it fails to speculate the shit out of the code (compared to intel), so it also gets shafted to a lesser extent
22:01:00 <mjg> i have to stress the drop between fstat and newfstatat is not all clac/stac, but a lot of it is
22:01:00 <heat> clac/stac sucks then
22:01:00 <mjg> it does, yes
22:01:00 <mjg> poll needs to copy out buffers one by one
22:02:00 <mjg> in freebsd this means repeated calls to copyout and consquently clac/stac cycle every time
22:02:00 <mjg> this DEMOLISHES perf when used with many fds
22:05:00 <heat> what happens with arm64?
22:05:00 <mjg> no idea, never tested myslef
22:05:00 <mjg> geist claims no impact?
22:06:00 <heat> i think riscv will have the same performance hit due to having its own clac/stac in the form of csr registers
22:07:00 <heat> (although those CPUs still suck so you probably won't see much)
22:09:00 <froggey> one weird trick to absolutely DEMOLISH performance
22:12:00 <geist> mjg: basically.
22:13:00 <heat> i wonder if that clac/stac thing is basically a response to spectre, etc
22:24:00 <geist> i think it predates that, though i think SMEP was first (and a no-brainer)
22:24:00 <geist> arm64 has basically SMEP via permission bits, in that there's a way to semi-independently declare X permissions for user pages
22:24:00 <heat> yes, SMEP was first. I mean the full barrier thing
22:25:00 <heat> I could see cpus speculating the shit in and out of stac/clac until the side channel exploits rolled around
22:38:00 * gog speculatively executes heat
22:38:00 <gog> i suspect he did something terrible
22:44:00 <zid> heat *certainly* did something terrible
22:50:00 <mjg> heat: i aid i speculate there is a full barrier in there
22:50:00 <mjg> heat: cpu definitely needs to act as if there are fences around it, so thus would be the easiest way
22:50:00 <mjg> this
22:51:00 <heat> why does it?
22:54:00 <mjg> clac(); foo = *lolptr; stac();
22:54:00 <mjg> what if it speculatively tries to load foo
22:54:00 <mjg> as in hoists it prior to clac
22:55:00 <heat> it just... does?
22:55:00 <mjg> what?
22:55:00 <heat> i dont see what the problem is
22:56:00 <mjg> lolptr is not accessible prior to clac
22:56:00 <heat> i know
22:56:00 <mjg> so what do you do if that happens
22:57:00 <heat> so either your loads are less trivial than val = load_8byte addr or you never hoist them prior to a clac
22:57:00 <heat> or do some sort of cheekiness with clac
22:57:00 <mjg> but how will the cpu know to not hois it
22:58:00 <mjg> similarly, it has to finish all stores prior to stac
22:58:00 <heat> i don't see the need for clac to actually touch eflags until someone looks at it
22:58:00 <mjg> ?
22:58:00 <mjg> oh wait, it is stac/clac, but point stands
22:58:00 <heat> clac/stac can just be internal gook can't they
22:58:00 <mjg> let's try again
22:59:00 <heat> it shouldn't need to involve actually setting or clearing bits
22:59:00 <heat> or register allocation or what have you
22:59:00 <mjg> the point is the cpu has to avoid tripping over smap being enabled
22:59:00 <mjg> to that end, the easiest way out i see, is to make sure nothing gets reordered before or after
22:59:00 <mjg> and that can e achieved with already existing fences
23:00:00 <mjg> so i speculate this is what they are doing internally
23:00:00 <heat> sure, easiest
23:00:00 <heat> I don't see why you would do the easiest
23:01:00 <heat> who wins, highly qualified intel and amd cpu engineers or some lazi bois
23:01:00 <mjg> given the performance impact, i take it they did not take the hrad way out
23:01:00 <mjg> and if this is the fastest it can be, then there is some node.js-level shenaningans in the cpu
23:01:00 <heat> what did node.js do to you
23:02:00 <mjg> i mention it specifically instead of webdev in general or php in particular
23:02:00 <mjg> just mixing it up
23:03:00 <heat> v8 is actually pretty decent
23:03:00 <heat> what people do on top... yeah maybe not
23:04:00 <kaichiuchi> hi
23:11:00 <zid> web tech is amazing, that's WHY people write such utter dogshit on top of it
23:12:00 <zid> When the most powerful thing you could do with javascript was falling snowflakes that lagged heavily, people didn't abuse it :P
23:17:00 <Bitweasil> I've been playing with "running JITless" lately for browsers.
23:17:00 <Bitweasil> It doesn't really seem to hurt performance in practical use as much as I'd expected.
23:17:00 <mats2> its really the low cost entry that shittifies everything
23:18:00 <zid> Bitweasil: yea in practice I imagine the worst would be if the parser was slow
23:18:00 <jimbzy> I tried javascript once and I didn't get it.
23:18:00 <Bitweasil> Actually, a lot of the stuff doesn't get JIT'd anyway.
23:18:00 <jimbzy> Admittedly, that was probably on my end.
23:18:00 <zid> as a lot of it these days is "run 20MB of code to add a couple of nodes to the DOM"
23:18:00 <Bitweasil> It's only the hot loops, as I understand it.
23:18:00 <zid> rather than actual constant execution
23:19:00 <Bitweasil> So the straight interpreted performance for once through code isn't awful, but it's not worth the overhead.
23:19:00 <Bitweasil> The JS benchmarks that are nothing but hot little loops of JS suffer, certainly.
23:19:00 <Bitweasil> I don't think *too* many sites do that, and if it hurts the blasted coin miners, good.
23:19:00 <Bitweasil> mats2, low cost of entry with giant libraries.
23:19:00 <Bitweasil> Import this thing, then $_.addTapdancingTurd(dom.foo.bar.baz);
23:20:00 <mats2> usa #1
23:20:00 <Bitweasil> I remain set in my hatred of how we use computers. :/
23:21:00 <jimbzy> I think that's why I didn't like javascript, Bitweasil. I was just overwhelmed by the number of libraries.
23:21:00 <gog> $'.selector'.each(function () {blah});
23:21:00 <gog> i like jquery
23:21:00 <gog> everything built atop jquery is a pile of trash
23:22:00 <heat> you're not supposed to use jquery anymore, are you?
23:22:00 <jimbzy> ^^
23:23:00 <jimbzy> Why?
23:23:00 <Bitweasil> I thought it was long since obsoleted in favor of heavier frameworks.
23:24:00 <Bitweasil> jquery was light and to the point.
23:24:00 <heat> idk I think that new ecmascript has all the niceties
23:24:00 <gog> hm idk
23:24:00 <gog> we still need it
23:24:00 <gog> but i think people are prefering react these days
23:24:00 <gog> so yeah
23:24:00 <jimbzy> Because libx.y.z is better, but you shouldn't use that either because liba.b.c does it even more gooder.
23:24:00 <gog> we're actually using react in all of our new widgets
23:24:00 <gog> and slowly refactoring the rest of the application
23:25:00 <jimbzy> Bitweasil, Sometimes light and to the point is exactly what is needed.
23:26:00 <Bitweasil> Light and to the point doesn't sell Intel 13th Generation Heaters now, does it?
23:26:00 <Bitweasil> With 76 performance cores leading the big parade, 110 efficiency cores close behind!
23:26:00 <jimbzy> True that.
23:26:00 * jimbzy goes back to poorly winding his inductor.
23:27:00 <heat> what?
23:27:00 <Bitweasil> Followed by rows and rows of the biggest powersupplies you know, and heatsinks of every shape and size!
23:27:00 <Bitweasil> ooh?
23:27:00 <Bitweasil> HAM gear?
23:27:00 <mats2> left pad your heatsink
23:27:00 <jimbzy> Yeah
23:27:00 <gog> more bigger more better
23:27:00 <heat> you don't buy 13th gen intel cpus for javascript...
23:27:00 <jimbzy> Building my first HF receiver.
23:27:00 <Bitweasil> Sweet. :)
23:27:00 <klange> jquery was obsoleted by its main features getting into javascript
23:27:00 <Bitweasil> (the *only* people I know who willingly hand-wind inductors anymore are HAM types)
23:28:00 <jimbzy> Yeah, we're ate up like that.
23:28:00 <Bitweasil> heat, right, you buy it for warmth! ;)
23:28:00 <heat> no, you buy them to do more things in the same amount of time or the same things in less time
23:29:00 <heat> and yes, as klange said, the features were introduced into ecmascript or javascript or whatever
23:29:00 <jimbzy> Bitweasil, http://044640f.netsolhost.com/single-band-rcvr/ I'm using this as my starting point, and I'm going to try out some different ideas once it's up and running.
23:29:00 <bslsk05> 044640f.netsolhost.com: Suppliment files for the Single Band Receiver
23:29:00 <Bitweasil> *shrug* I simply don't care to do more and more of that which computers do.
23:30:00 <Bitweasil> That is glorious! :D
23:30:00 <Bitweasil> I need to get more into HAM stuff.
23:30:00 <Bitweasil> I only have my Technician.
23:31:00 <jimbzy> I was going to start with a much simpler direct-conversion radio, but I figured nothing ventured nothing gained.
23:31:00 <jimbzy> Same, but I'm studying for an upgrade.
23:31:00 <zid> I recommend slicing it real thin and wrapping it around tasty things and baking them, for ham
23:32:00 <Bitweasil> I've got the books, just need to find the time, between all the other projects, work, etc. :/
23:32:00 <Bitweasil> Need to get my Class B CDL again too.
23:32:00 <Bitweasil> Anyway, good luck with the project, that looks like a whopper of a fun build!
23:32:00 <jimbzy> Not my temp.
23:33:00 <Bitweasil> I've got a Bottlehead amp coming in... today, I think.
23:33:00 <Bitweasil> Tube based phono preamp. :D
23:33:00 <jimbzy> I can make an Eaton-Fuller transmission sound like it's singing the blues, though. ;)
23:33:00 <jimbzy> temp
23:33:00 <jimbzy> Nice
23:33:00 <Bitweasil> Reduction with the Integration upgrades. ;)
23:33:00 <Bitweasil> I am so looking forward to building it.
23:33:00 <jimbzy> Dang it. I keep hitting the up arrow and mashing Enter XD
23:34:00 <mjg> you are a temp!
23:35:00 * jimbzy is thick as fudge.
23:35:00 <Bitweasil> mmm....
23:35:00 <Bitweasil> Fudge...
23:35:00 <zid> jimbzy tried to sneak past but the clap of his asscheeks kept alerting the guards?
23:36:00 <gog> thicc
23:36:00 * Bitweasil claps the coconuts.
23:36:00 <Bitweasil> Alright. I'm out.
23:36:00 <gog> nini
23:36:00 <jimbzy> Cheers.
23:38:00 <mjg> put a lime in a coconut and drink it all up
23:42:00 <gog> doctor!
23:42:00 <gog> is there something i can take, i said doctor! to relieve this bellyache
23:44:00 <mjg> here is a joke from poland
23:44:00 <mjg> dude goes to visit a doctor
23:44:00 <mjg> - do you want this covered by insurence or private payment
23:44:00 <mjg> - insurance
23:44:00 <mjg> - what's the problem?
23:44:00 <mjg> - my left ball is blue
23:44:00 <mjg> doc takes a look
23:45:00 <mjg> - we gonna need to surgically remove it
23:45:00 <mjg> - i'll make a private payment
23:45:00 <mjg> - oh in that case the pen in your pocket is leaking
23:45:00 <gog> lmao
23:48:00 <heat> jokes from poland are always dangerous
23:49:00 <heat> also who tf has a pen in their pocket
23:49:00 <heat> is this a poland thing
23:49:00 <mjg> > poland
23:49:00 <mjg> not really though
23:49:00 <klange> It's just a "several years ago, before everyone had phones" thing.
23:50:00 * sortie just merged networking no big deal
23:51:00 <klange> how many years has it been?
23:51:00 <heat> sure, you can have a pen with you, but in your pocket? hard nah
23:51:00 <sortie> Not even a decade
23:51:00 <klange> aarch64 port when?
23:51:00 <heat> petition to rename valve time sortie time
23:51:00 <sortie> 7 years is a perfectly reasonable time to make a network driver and stack
23:51:00 <sortie> klange, any century now!
23:53:00 <mjg> i think you might have missed your window
23:53:00 <mjg> i'm on openbsd now
23:53:00 <mjg> so how many pps do you push dawg in your best setup
23:53:00 <sortie> I'm sure OpenBSD users will love Sortix
23:54:00 <mjg> do you have theo as a mascot?
23:54:00 <heat> OpenBSD users? loving?
23:54:00 <sortie> All your favorite OpenBSD software with none of the default eye hazardous X11 pattern
23:54:00 <sortie> (*subject to availability)
23:54:00 <klange> sortix has the best mascot: weird orange cat thing
23:55:00 <mjg> wait
23:55:00 <mjg> can it eat the puffy fish?
23:55:00 <mjg> would make sense
23:55:00 <sortie> Cats eat fish, that sounds legit
23:55:00 <sortie> It's even compatibly licensed, a key part of a diet
23:56:00 <mjg> so basically Sortix is the next OpenBSD
23:56:00 <mjg> makes sense for sure
23:56:00 <klange> I should find the long-lost artwork of ToaruOS's mascot...
23:56:00 <mjg> a lofty goal sortie, hats off
23:56:00 <zid> don't say goal, heat will get excited
23:57:00 <sortie> It's a key goal of mine that people casually dismiss Sortix “Bah, Sortix.“ the same way they casually dismiss OpenBSD “Bah, OpenBSD.”
23:57:00 <sortie> That or Haiku or Minix
23:58:00 <sortie> If people ignore and dismiss me that much, I have achieved glory
23:58:00 <sortie> I have obviously already surpassed GNU Hurd by self-hosting my infra
23:58:00 <mjg> if you want glory you gonna have to namecall MIT graduates
23:58:00 <sortie> The Berkeley Sortix Distribution
23:59:00 <heat> Haiku and Minix are real systems
23:59:00 <heat> OpenBSD isn't