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Sunday, 17 September 2023

00:00:00 <grumbler> If one were a mediocre programmer and wished to learn how to build one's own VM, where would you OS-dev folks direct such a person? (Asking for uh... "a friend")
00:04:00 <heat> what's a VM
00:04:00 <heat> (that's a vague acronym)
00:05:00 <grumbler> Virtual Machine, A simple one though - so that one could learn how these things are built and how they work etc.
00:06:00 <zid> as in, using hardware exceptions to create a hypervisor, or as in interpreting a bytecode to create an imaginary computer?
00:06:00 <zid> extensions*
00:06:00 <grumbler> The latter
00:06:00 <zid> chip-8 emulator tutorials will do
00:06:00 <grumbler> Interpreting something like bytecode to create an imaginary computer
00:06:00 <grumbler> Ah, I see
00:06:00 <grumbler> Thank you
00:07:00 <zid> or if you wanna go full boss mode, gameboy emulator
00:07:00 <grumbler> understood
00:07:00 <zid> The basic premise is pretty simple though
00:07:00 <heat> full boss mode is x86 PC lol
00:07:00 <grumbler> My aspirations are quite modest, I must admit and x86 PC sounds well beyond my current abilities
00:08:00 <zid> opcode = memory[instruction_pointer]; switch(opcode){ case 0x74: /* ADD A, n */ A += memory[instruction_pointer+1]; instruction_pointer +=2; break; }
00:08:00 <zid> That's the core of any emulator/vm/etc
00:08:00 <zid>
00:08:00 <bslsk05> ​ gameboy/cpu.c at master · zid/gameboy · GitHub
00:09:00 <grumbler> Thank you, I've made a note of this
00:14:00 <netbsduser`> grumbler: i learnt it by implementing first forth, then lisp, then smalltalk
00:14:00 <netbsduser`> forth is very simple and a little unusual but a good first step for that reason
00:20:00 <grumbler> netbsduser`, do you mean that you built an interpreter/compiler for those languages and that involved making the VM as part of the process?
00:20:00 <netbsduser`> grumbler: yes, exactly that
00:20:00 <grumbler> Understood, thank you
00:21:00 <netbsduser`> and it was the latter + some experience contributing to illumos and netbsd that actually gave me the confidence to try osdev
00:21:00 <grumbler> I see
00:21:00 <grumbler> What are you working on nowadays?
00:22:00 <netbsduser`> i have a little kernel and operating system (well, nearly everything else but the kernel is third-party ports, but still)
00:22:00 <heat> windows storage driver warcrimes
00:23:00 <zid> heat talked me out of writing anything
00:23:00 <blockhead> heat: that's a phrase for my cookie file ;)
00:25:00 <netbsduser`> i'm quite pleased with the windows storage driver warcrimes
00:25:00 <netbsduser`> finally an impetus to implement a scsi stack
02:10:00 <zid> wimdows.
03:37:00 <kof13> openbsd had pf ... but it was ported elsewhere. this was a nice reason to use it a long time ago
06:01:00 <kazinsal> this isn't exactly osdev related but has anyone ever written anything using apple push notifications from web callbacks? trying to get a FFXIV plugin to send a push notification through an HTTP request
06:24:00 <moon-child> I have not. HTH.HAND
06:26:00 <zid> +++ATH0
06:26:00 <kof13> atttttttttttttttttttttttheos
06:27:00 <zid> works on affliction I see
15:02:00 <gog`> hi
15:04:00 <heat> hi
15:15:00 <Jari--> hi guys, I remember how sometimes I made task switch to take a second, was funny to see - on a timer
15:15:00 <Jari--> any benefits for a small kernel project to use the Advanced PIC?
15:15:00 <Jari--> APIT even
15:16:00 <Jari--> 32-bit kernel, but most hardware support relies on old 8086 code - JTMOS.
15:16:00 <Jari--> I cant live without TSS, but soon coming up amd64 revision of the kernel.
15:17:00 <heat> what's the APIT?
15:17:00 <Jari--> heat advanded progarmmable timer controller?
15:17:00 <heat> i'm afraid that's not a thing
15:17:00 <heat> the APIC has a timer though
15:17:00 <Jari--> heat, I debugged with bochs the Windows 95 kernel, it used timer NNNNN like i.e. timer 123446
15:18:00 <heat> i don't know what that means
15:18:00 <heat> also >windows 95 kernel
15:18:00 <heat> please don't
15:18:00 <Jari--> heat, so I am betting Windows 95 LIBC is thread safe mostly?
15:19:00 <heat> huh?
15:19:00 <Jari--> its easy, use more memory, like I did on all my projects before
15:19:00 <heat> what do timers have to do with thread safety and the libc
15:19:00 <Jari--> heat, yeah, allocate some memory properties for each thread
16:12:00 <Ermine> You slap timers on LIBC and it instantly becomes thread safe, isn't that obvious
16:12:00 <Ermine> gog`: may I pet you
16:13:00 <heat> the windows 95 kernel was fantastic
16:14:00 <heat> the best part of windows was ms-dos
16:14:00 <Ermine> Startup sound is nice
16:15:00 <Ermine> Win95 was so good for virtualization that even drivers were virtual
16:55:00 <ChavGPT> it is tautological that widespread use == great quality
16:56:00 <ChavGPT> windows 95 defo fits the bill
16:56:00 <sham1> Millions of flies can't be wrong. Fecal matter can't be that bad
17:06:00 <gog`> Ermine: yes
17:07:00 * sham1 squints at the backtick
17:11:00 * Ermine pets gog`
17:13:00 * gog` prr
17:14:00 <gog> there are you happy
17:17:00 <sham1> Yes
17:25:00 <Ermine> Hmm, I've petted gog`, may I pet you gog
17:26:00 <immibis> it was an adjective. that was your pet gog
17:28:00 * gog prr
17:33:00 <Ermine> s/petted/pet/
18:13:00 <ChavGPT> sigh
18:16:00 <ChavGPT> i may end up proposing something for sysconf so that people can query "suggested" core count
18:16:00 <ChavGPT> juts ran into another _SC_NPROCESSORS_ONLN abuser
18:17:00 <immibis> suggested core count = number of cores you should buy to have a fast computer?
18:19:00 <ChavGPT> implemlentation: whatver the count now + 8
18:20:00 <heat> you should just return 8
18:20:00 <heat> nothing reasonable scales past 8
18:20:00 <heat> -
18:20:00 <ChavGPT> found the openbsd user
18:20:00 <ChavGPT> cykaBlyatSD
18:20:00 <heat> i spend a single day inside r/openbsd and this is what happens to me
18:21:00 <ChavGPT> do you have a reddit account
18:21:00 <heat> mayb
18:22:00 <Ermine> I spend time at more interesting subreddits
18:26:00 * Ermine looks at r/openbsd
18:26:00 <ChavGPT> r/osbroesbeforehoes
18:26:00 <ChavGPT> innit
18:26:00 <Ermine> > linux sucks
18:27:00 * Ermine closes the tab
18:27:00 <ChavGPT> i only seen the linked thread
18:27:00 <heat> 99% of women think openbsd men are interesting and attractive
18:28:00 <heat> and every woman who tells you the opposite is either a liar or part of the 1%
18:28:00 <Ermine> I always knew I'm lucky
18:29:00 <netbsduser`> i don't agree with r/openbsd
18:29:00 <heat>
18:29:00 <bslsk05> ​ Reddit - Dive into anything
18:29:00 <heat> >I haven't been able to find any information in the man pages or on Bing
18:29:00 <netbsduser`> when i ported systemd to openbsd they declared it offtopic and refused to permit anyone to post about it
18:29:00 <heat> > or on Bing
18:29:00 <heat> > Bing
18:30:00 <heat> To:
18:30:00 <ChavGPT> that's not the address of the list though
18:30:00 <heat> hey yall how does linux do memory allocation i tried yahooing this but nothing came up
18:31:00 <ChavGPT> :X
18:31:00 <heat> i know
18:31:00 <heat> it's like kvack something
18:31:00 <Ermine> netbsduser`: expectable btw. Openbsd is one of the harbours of systemd haters, so they don't like any kind of such ports
18:31:00 <heat> but fuck it you get the joke
18:31:00 <ChavGPT> i get all the genz jokes
18:31:00 <netbsduser`> Ermine: but that's the whole joke
18:31:00 <ChavGPT> :X
18:32:00 <netbsduser`> i did the port first to have fun, second to learn more about systemd which i always criticised from afar, and third to startle the natives
18:39:00 <immibis> did you rewrite the kernel to make it more systemd compatible? That's what Lennart would have done
18:40:00 <geist> keep adding more linux syscalls to it, openbsd people will thank you for it
18:40:00 <Ermine> hi geist
18:40:00 <geist> hola
18:41:00 <immibis> no hablo español
18:41:00 * CompanionCube vaguely remembers someone making a port called 'initware'
18:42:00 <Ermine> Actually it would be nice to have an OS with reasonable set of features but immune to pegasus. Is that utopian?
18:42:00 <immibis> isn't that called linux
18:42:00 <Ermine> Is it so?
18:43:00 <immibis> problem being that linux is not an OS but rather an OS construction kit (this applies doubly if you are using gentoo linux)
18:43:00 <netbsduser`> CompanionCube: that's mine
18:43:00 <immibis> while it's possible to make a linux OS that's immune to pegasus, it's also possible to make one that isn't
18:44:00 <Ermine> If those people manage to attack the kernel, none of linux distributions will be secure against it
18:47:00 <netbsduser`> immibis: i was surprised recently when i learned that some people actually run gentoo directly
18:48:00 <netbsduser`> i always supposed it was more of a toolkit for building a GNU/Linux distro, like ChromeOS
18:49:00 <Ermine> What you're referring to as ChromeOS is, in fact, GNU/ChromeOS
18:49:00 <Ermine> (Sorry)
18:50:00 <immibis> netbsduser`: you might be thinking of yocto. they use very similar build scripts, so there must be some relation
18:50:00 <immibis> i use gentoo
18:50:00 <immibis> i also used yocto at work, for an embedded system
18:51:00 <immibis> gentoo is clearly a distribution itself as it can update itself for example. But it's a lot closer to automated Linux From Scratch, than to Ubuntu
18:51:00 <immibis> whereas yocto is something you use to make a distribution for another device
19:12:00 * CompanionCube is happy enough with current inits to not use initware, but it's a good idea anyway
19:35:00 <geist> hmm what's this pegaus that you speak of?
19:36:00 <geist> ah some sort of spyware
19:49:00 <kof13> yes, i was worried it was some systemd or something, but this maintains his magical properties, so...i see no problem with the name
19:55:00 <gog> hi
19:59:00 <Ermine> hi gog
20:04:00 <gog> hi Ermine
20:04:00 <Ermine> how r u gog
20:06:00 <gog> i'm ok i guess
20:07:00 <gog> how are you
20:19:00 <Ermine> I'm fine
20:20:00 <Ermine> Writing a motivational letter rn
20:21:00 <zid> is it G
20:57:00 <sham1> Probably not
21:29:00 <nikolar> is it top G by any chance
21:30:00 <ChavGPT> motivational letter?
21:30:00 <ChavGPT> wtf
21:33:00 <sham1> Probably a motivation letter for a job application
21:33:00 <sham1> "why am I seeking this employment" and if you answer "I want money", you fail
21:34:00 <ChavGPT> i am aying wtf is with companies asking for one today
21:34:00 <ChavGPT> last time i had to write one was 15 years ago
21:35:00 <ChavGPT> and i changed jobs several times
21:36:00 <kof13> this is probably true, but if you deny money == competence, skill, worthiness, holiness you also fail :D
21:36:00 <kof13> so you must want it, but not say so lol
21:37:00 <ChavGPT> ask chatgpt to write one no problemo
22:57:00 <gog> hi
22:58:00 <heat> hi gog
22:59:00 <gog> hi heat
22:59:00 <heat> linux kernal gog kernal linux
22:59:00 <heat> gogux kernal
22:59:00 <gog> i don't know what linox kornel is
23:00:00 <heat> kornel university of united states of american
23:00:00 <heat> linox from linox troval of internet
23:35:00 <gog> who